Melbourne Zoo Melbourne zoo- Allegations

[MARK]

Pat you are correct in what you have posted above, they should of spent that money for the elephants at Werribee zoo, city zoos are not really the best place for housing an elephant herd, open range type zoos with large areas of land should be the only place for keeping them, cant agree with you more.

 

[Ara]

From the point of view of the elephants' welfare I agree completely.

From the point of view of the AVERAGE zoo-goer (not zoo-nuts like us), Werribee is OK, being on the edge of Melbourne, but the average Sydney-ite is not going to drive out to Dubbo just to see elephants. If Taronga is not going to have them, NSW might as well give them away --- (anybody want them?)

 

[Pertinax]

Just another note on the damn hamadryas baboon enclosure, which half the members of ZooBeat have justifiably blasted at one time or another. Yes, we all know that the Melbourne Zoo has a poor baboon cage which should be bulldozed.

Time for another blast at that baboon cage... I'm sure the Baboons are actually as happy as larry living in it- its just that it is very unnattractive to human visitors, many of whom will therefore think the baboons are unhappy too and go away thinking bad things about the zoo generally, just from one poor exhibit.

The mystery remains as to why Melb still haven't removed it and rehoused the occupants- is it because Hamadryas baboon doesn't tick any of the boxes for rehousing priority i.e. not endangered, not beautiful etc? Yet properly displayed, they could be a far more interesting display than many of those higher profile species. The puzzle continues...

 

[Coquinguy]

either that Patrick, or in the next ten years a few calves will be produced and everyone will be too busy cooing over them, and the front page of 'the age' will run with that story if its going to grab headlines

 

[snowleopard]

Patrick has many good points, and we should all bear in mind that his local zoo is Melbourne and he is normally a huge supporter of all that it endeavours to do. Elephants are a constant headache for zoos, as they have suffered terribly in captivity over the years. I live in Canada and read the paper every day, and yet can't ever remember seeing any article on Melbourne Zoo in the Provincial paper...until last week. It was a tiny article, but "Elephant Abuse" is obviously not the headline that the zoo would have wanted.

The most telling statistic for me is the fact that in North America alone approximately 17 different zoos have stopped exhibiting elephants. Either due to the astronomical cost associated with feeding and caring for these massive mammals, or because of the welfare of the animals in captivity. 17 zoos...and that number will undoubtedly continue to climb. Even a prominent, established collection like the Bronx Zoo has promised to phase out elephants and never again exhibit them once their remaining pachyderms die. But Taronga and Melbourne felt compelled to open enormously expensive, yet puny little enclosures for elephants? They are fighting an uphill battle.

 

[Yassa]

either that Patrick, or in the next ten years a few calves will be produced and everyone will be too busy cooing over them, and the front page of 'the age' will run with that story if its going to grab headlines

Well births will undoubtly make the headlines, but births can very well bring both zoos into more trouble.

First, primiparous elephant females have a high risk of having a stillbirth - one or even more stillbirths would be fuel for those groups who fought the elephant import from the beginning.

Second, keeping zoo born calves in direct contact is a source of problems itself. Zoo born calves need to be "teached" to behave and not to push the keepers and this can easily bring headlines like "elephant keepers beating baby elephant". And once the baby elephants get a little older, they may become "unmanageable" in direct contact and a danger to humans, experience in european and US zoos has proven that zoo-born elephants are much more likely to attack their keepers then those brought up in Asia. A very sad example for both is Abu, an african bull calf born in Vienna in 2001. He was only a few months old when the zoo made the headlines after a keeper had beaten him in front of school children, and in 2005 he killed the head keeper. And in 2006, the zoo made again the headlines after an AR group was sent a video of cruel training methods performed on Abu`s younger sister Mongu (most likely by a zoo keeper who was pissed off by his collegues).

Third, neither Melbourne and Taronga have the barn space to keep a herd with serveral calves in long term, and the need to send females to other zoos, breaking the social bonds, will come quickly (given that there won`t be too many problems with stillbirths). The AR groups and the public will notice that neither zoo ever intended to build up "multi-generation-herds" where females can nuture life-long bonds...

 

[patrick]

from the response to the allegations on the zoos victoria website...

"Rigo the gorilla has not been kept for 16 years in isolation in an antiquated enclosure. He has received outstanding care and attention by dedicated keepers"

ha! how can they say that? he has been kept in in a solitary environment in an antiquated enclosure. saying he hasn't is just an outright lie!!!

 

[snowleopard]

I see that the Zoos Victoria website has a sort of disclaimer link denying any type of alleged abuse. Obviously the elephant jabbing/stabbing story has been major news not just in Australia but across the oceans...but it is inexplicable to post such a denial on the zoo's official website. Maybe they are wording it too finely: by saying that "Rigo the gorilla has not been kept for 16 years in isolation in an antiquated enclosure" they are deflecting away from the possibility that it has only been about 14 years. Or perhaps the "outstanding care" makes up for the lack of enrichment with other gorillas? Who knows what they are thinking, and I'm not sure that I've ever seen such a posting on an official zoo website.

Melbourne Zoo is a wonderful zoo, but their gong-show husbandry appears to be the number one concern at the moment. Hopefully the public outcry from these matters will force them to improve animal conditions for a handful of individuals.

 

[Pertinax]

Maybe they are wording it too finely: by saying that "Rigo the gorilla has not been kept for 16 years in isolation in an antiquated enclosure" they are deflecting away from the possibility that it has only been about 14 years. Or perhaps the "outstanding care" makes up for the lack of enrichment with other gorillas? Who knows what they are thinking, and I'm not sure that I've ever seen such a posting on an official zoo website.

it definately is not very well worded. It appears to deny Rigo was alone. I think he was alone for considerably longer than 16 years- it could up to 25 in fact. 'Buluman' arrived in Taronga in 1980. (When he became group leader was the time Rigo was permanently isolated from the group). In between 1980 to 1991- when I first saw Rigo (by then alone) was an additional eleven year period during which he could have had some access to the females, but in view of their incompatability, most likely not. When I first visited in 1983 he was not on show, while the others were, so he was already being isolated, at least some of the time, by then. I'd love to know how long it really was.

I think a better response/explanation would have helped the zoo's position here.

 

[jay]

What happens to all the extra male gorillas in the wild? Births are about equal but a group consits of several females so there has to be a lot of adult gorillas without female compansionship. Do they live on their own?

 

[patrick]

in the wild things ain't so easy. death rates are higher, males fight, lose females, lose groups and yes, fly solo.

however, even batchelor gorillas have interaction with other gorillas, even if it may on occasions be negative. and whilst they may have a somewhat lonelier life, its a free and enriched one.

one of my biggest issues i must keep reiterating is not just that rigo was kept alone, but that he was kept alone in that exhibit. the humane thing to do would have been to give the silverback gorilla access to the rainforest exhibit.

of course he wasn't, because one gorilla on display isn't as good for the visitors as a eight.

a good compromise would have been two groups of 4 or 5, but then that would not have avoided the issue of fixing the grottoes, which would house one group whilst the other was on display in the bigger enclosure.

the orangutans also lived in these appalling exhibits for too long, however, for the most part, they had eachother as stimulus. something rigo would have had if he was managed in an ethical manner.

 

[snowleopard]

That word "ethics" resonates in this case. Melbourne Zoo should obviously never have allowed Rigo to spend even a month alone, let alone a decade or two. Hopefully they will have learned their lesson from the enormous amount of bad publicity that this story has generated.

 

[Pertinax]

What happens to all the extra male gorillas in the wild? Do they live on their own?

Yes they do... and they tend to avoid interactions with other lone males most of the time. However, they do join and leave groups and interact with other gorillas from time to time.

 

[Pertinax]

Hopefully they will have learned their lesson from the enormous amount of bad publicity that this story has generated.

I find it interesting this has blown up apparently after Rigo's situation has been changed and he's now living in the group. It shows that his previous predicament has by no means been forgotten- very similar in fact to 'Ivan' the 'shopping mall' gorilla in the US who eventually moved to Atlanta Zoo. Rigo's behaviour in the group(so far) has distinct parallels with Ivan's too.

 

[Jarkari]

What happens to all the extra male gorillas in the wild? Births are about equal but a group consits of several females so there has to be a lot of adult gorillas without female compansionship. Do they live on their own?

Primates also tend to form batchelor groups. and there is eveidence of Gorillas "pushing back" maturity until they are ready to move on. Dominance (or fighting for it) isn't as common in gorillas as say big cats nor is it as common in the wild as it seems to be in zoos. Groups of batchelor males can be found in most primate species. Many people will tell you the only reason Orangs appear solo is because the amount ehy eat and the scarcity (sp?) of that food forces them to live apart.

 

[snowleopard]

Bachelor (this is the correct spelling for all those people on this thread that insist on including a "t") groups of gorillas can be fairly common in zoos, and so it is no surprise that Melbourne Zoo is attempting to integrate Rigo with other males. Why it took so long has already been debated on this forum, and the sad aspect of the story is that the zoo has been publicly recognized worldwide for a negative action.

@Pertinax: you jogged my memory and brought up a great point in reference to Ivan the gorilla at Zoo Atlanta. That unfortunate ape had such a horrific life, and sitting in a mall watching television has to be one of the most embarrassing moments in captive wildlife history. I seem to recall that his cage wasn't much bigger than him!

 

[Pertinax]

Batchelor groups of gorillas can be fairly common in zoos, and so it is no surprise that Melbourne Zoo is attempting to integrate Rigo with other males. Why it took so long has already been debated on this forum, and the sad aspect of the story is that the zoo has been publicly recognized worldwide for a negative action.

Snowleopard. No, you're on the wrong track here. read the thread 'Rigo the Gorilla.' for recent developments. To summarise, Rigo has been introduced to the four females of the Melbourne group, in the hope that he will breed with one or two of them. This was an 'official' recommendation in order to try and extend his representation in the captive population.( He has only one son and one grandson) He's been living in the group about six months now, very quietly and without trouble.

In order to do this the previous breeding male 'Motaba' and his two sons have been removed and form a small bachelor group in the original Ape grottoes where Rigo formerly lived alone. Although they may have to separate them at some time in the future, I'm sure Melbourne won't repeat the mistakes of Rigo's isolation in the future.

Regarding Ivan- I saw a film of him once- surely the most bizarre life for a Gorilla in modern times. He settled into the Atlanta group okay and even eventually mated, but hasn't fathered any offspring. The jury is still out on whether Rigo will breed or not.

 

[Pertinax]

Groups of batchelor males can be found in most primate species.

(We're getting away from the subject of this thread a bit but its still linked actually)...) That's a popular conception but I wonder how accurate it is in reality. Its certainly not true for Gorillas. Researchers studying wild lowland gorillas have found no evidence at all that they form male groups- lone males tend to avoid each other for the most part. Bachelor groups do seem to work okay in captivity-particularly if there's only one fully mature silverback- but they are an artificial grouping.

Of course' lone male' status is unlikely to be permanent anyway. Most males will eventually experience a spell leading a group during the 'prime' years of their lives. A male who leaves his group at e.g. 11 years may move around alone for a few years until fully mature, both physically and mentally at (say)17. Then he might take over another male's group, or attract one or more females to start his own. Or he might stay a 'loner' for much longer, or get bitten by a poisonous snake or shot by a hunter or contract a fatal illness, all of which would curtail his life. Anything can happen in the wild...

The sad thing about Rigo is that during the 'prime part' of his life, say from 15 -30 when he had most potential as a group leader/breeding male, he had to live alone instead.

 

[snowleopard]

Thanks Pertinax. I temporarily mixed up Rigo and Motaba, but it's a great thing that Rigo has spent the past 6 months actually associating with other gorillas. I suppose that Melbourne are too focused on the upcoming pool construction to worry about improving the adjacent ape enclosures.

 

[Pertinax]

I believe they will modernise those old enclosures at some stage- possibly with interconnecting doors between in case they have to split one or more of the three males if they start fighting as the two younger ones mature- that way they would still have contact.

It seems that Rigo's integration into the main group was pretty trouble-free. One or two members have posted that he spends a lot of time sleeping in the small cave in the exhibit- which was also Motaba's favourite spot too. Unfortunately so far he's not shown much interest in the females...