Melbourne Zoo Melbournes New Elephants.....

hey guys. i think some of the points here are kind of irrelevant given the situation.

firstly, if either melbourne or perth loaned their bull to taronga - that would only levae them in the same predicament. mature females and no bull to breed them with. tarongas error in age selection (if you, like me you believe it to be a bit of a ****-up decision), is just that THEIR ERROR. why should melbourne or perth suddenly jeopardise their programs just for taronga?

secondly, on the topic of moving bulls,...... whilst i certainly wouldn't reccomend it now, long-term i think its a better solution than moving cows. is it really true its that much harder to move bulls than females? i dunno if i believe that to be true. heman (tarongas old bull) was moved all the way to dubbo by road without a hitch. likewise, bong su apparently ate food whilst he was crate moved from his old exhibit to the opposite side of the zoo when the new exhibit arrived. as i discussed with one of melbourne zoos keepers - long term the prospect of purchasing (maybe though sponsorship like lindsay fox has done in the past) and modifying a special elephant moving vehicle, is a very real one. it can be shared between the zoos and can be specially designed for the sole purpose of moving elephants of all sizes, including bulls. logic to me indicates its not a big a deal as it often made out and moving bulls rather than cows are a more sensible option for long term group stablity. anyway... like i said earlier, things are mighty flexible.

and lastly, so that leaves us with three options at taronga at present.

a) import another, older bull.
b) make use of AI using the existing immature bull.
c) temporarily laon the two older cows to either melbourne or perth.

now i think taronga made two mistakes regarding bulls (1 moving heman, 2 gungs age) but since whats done is done lets talk about whats easiest and most realistic now...

to me option a) is a bit much. as if they would bring in another bull. forget it. you guys know the costs, housing issues etc that will arise from that. they only need the two oldest cows to fall pregnant once and then by the tme they are dur for their second calf gung might very well be up to the job himself.

so maybe option c) - loaning the females to another zoo. again, thats difficult. perth proably has the more space and that means putting them on a flight etc.. costly exercise, that really just opens them up once again for a bit of criticism and exposes their error. and all that is even if another zoo would agree to do so. besides, like zoopro said, its probably going to be easier at this stage if all first gen offspring are kept un mixed within their respective zoos.

now i'm not a big fan of AI, and i believe it to be expensive but really, like i said, option b) is potentially a one off and is probably cheaper and less of a headche all round than moving elephants or importing more.

thats whats going to happen, and whilst its was a stupid decision, there isn't really "a problem" with the taronga elephants as such.

they just best get a bloody move on.
 
What is the subspecies make-up of Oz's Asian elephants? This could be a really big factor as to where new animals could be sourced from.
 
Pat+Mark,

I agree with you that from the perspective of not having an adult bull AI may be a viable option, but it is a rather time and resource-consuming, expensive, technically difficult tool to improve elephant breeding in captivity.

Here are some facts on AI:
- in the African elephant SSP in US the technique has been used some 8-10 times per year and the overall success rate has only been 30-40%.
- need for viable fresh semen to be transported within 24 hours from source to cow
- need for fully adult bulls who are trained to either ejaculated manually or by electro means
- need to exactly time the time of ovulation in the female
- require intensive training to present for blood sampling (needed to monitor the progesterone levels in the blood)
- a complete understanding of elephant reproductive tracts
- experienced vet and technical personnel to perform the AI

Female elephant cycles are between 13-16 weeks long, so a window on breeding is only open 3 times a year. Bull elephants can breed year round. A bull elephant will monitor female reproductive behavior (demonstrating "in heat") and check hormone levels in her urine prior to any mating taking place. Natural mating is successful in 50-60% of cases. However, bulls tend to stay with a herd with receptive female(s) for some days and mate 3-4 times over 2-3 days.

To reciprocate that in an AI situation at f.i. Taronga requires all these issues to be resolved.
 
Just had a look at the (newlook) web site for the Ringling Center for conservation (USA)(elephant breeding centre) they have now had their 20th calf born since the early 90s, good stuff.
 
jelle, i agree AI is probably a bit fat complicated invasive mess (both metaphorically and physically i'm afraid) and by no means is it popular with me at all.

but its either that or loan the cows, because there is not a hope in hell they will be able to get a bull from anywhere else.

thaks for the facts, but the truth is that taronga zoo is already well on their way to breeding with the aid of AI (as is perth zoo). the animals are already being trained and monitored, the bull is already on loaction at the zoo (24hrs should be enough time to walk from one elephant to the next!) and the reproductive experts have been periodically visiting australia, assesing all our elephants and at times performing the AI procedure in perth.

id'e say the issues are being, if not already, resolved.
 
Well what ever way our zoos use to breed their elephants lets just hope they can produce a few babies and get our National breeding program kick started, fingers crossed. As one Aussie zoo director told me, one of our main problems here is, " Our zoos are to few in number and too far from the main game", I think he had a point.
 
it is a very complicated issue, i had a discussion with one off the ele keepers at taronga on my last visit at the public demo in the ele barn (eles come to fence and people able to pat them in nthe viewing area off barn)

he said that the effort to get semen to taronga is overwhelming, though not impossible. within 8 hours the seamen can be infertile. so i was told that singapore could be an option. so semen froma bull there, means all facilities must be on standby, with planes included. semne must be taken from bull, then on to a flight almost straight away. IT IS AN 8 hours flight, so already chances are decreasing. then there would have to be a rush to get to taronga, again police escort, and green light treatment (nice media headlines- traffic stopped and ploice called in for elephant spoof!). as well the females recipents must be standing waiting to go by the time the plan touches down.

this is a huge feat to under go, so if the zoos wanted to do this, there would be months of planning, as well as paper work, as so the semen can go directly to zoo with no quarrintine etc.

this was attempted with semen from dubbo for perth, heamen did the manly thing, and his semen was tanken direct to dubbo airport on a small commercial flight, then onto a larger flight from sydney to perth, then directly from perth airport, to perth zoo. by the time it arrived, most the semen was im-moblie

so for this to occur it will take a massive load of elephant crap to get through. a.i still is the most plausible option for taronga in the emantime. otherwise wait for gung, and allow melbourne to have the crowning glory of first ele bub, with mr.cooper with a look of 'congrats but i hate u', and handing over some nice pretty ballons, saying words of wisdom under his breath,

but we all need to remeber, it's not a race, but an effort to help a fellow species out.

now isnt that right mr. cooper, yes it is Mr. Zoo_Boy, (mumbling under his breath, witha very false smile ;) )
 
actually Zoo_Boy it is a bit of a race, but it has nothing to do with which zoo has the first elephant calf.

the conversation is revolving around the concern that taronga the two eldest females fall pregnant before their age begins to compromise their chances. if they wait for gung to mature, we may indeed once again end up with two infertile elphants like mek kapah.
 
i meant race between the 2 zoos, and yes you are right.

we do need to impregnat as many cows as possible with in the first years of maturity, if not right on maturity
 
You are right on the money here Pat, waiting for Gung is not really a good option for Tarongas too older cows
 
gung has already shown signs i beleive, but again, the zoo has to make sure that his facilities are ready soon as possible, as we dont want the potential of a few calves running around, with gung.

the zoo's best attempt is through ai
 
Zoo_Boy said:
gung has already shown signs i beleive
Click to expand...

Gung has definatly got the theory down pat. i had the infortunate experience of trying to tell a small child on a zoo tour that no that wasnt he wasnt giving birth to a baby elephant trunk first...it was something all together diffrent:p
 
They've been introducing Bong Su to the Dokkoon and Kulab....on the weekend all of them were in the same paddock together. (The most interesting comments, apart from little kids, is the blokes urging Bong Su on ..."come on, mate, you can do it".)
 
Zoo_Boy said:
gung has already shown signs i beleive, but again, the zoo has to make sure that his facilities are ready soon as possible, as we dont want the potential of a few calves running around, with gung.

the zoo's best attempt is through ai
Click to expand...

A bull won't do any harm to little calves. At Chester I saw a couple of the small calves climb through the divide fence bars and join the bull in his pen- he takes no notice really.
 
it really depends on the bull though. Gung is a good bull, very easily managed i have been told, but, tarongas exhibit would be to small for 4 females, and how ever mnay calves they get. it would be easier, if he was permentally out of that exhibit, with any possibility of calves.
 
I have to say, although I can always see the importance and need for separate facilities for Bull elephants in zoos, at some, or even most zoos, the bull elephant(s) does seem to be isolated a lot of the time from other herd members. I know male elephants don't consort permanently with cow and calf roups, but I think in many zoos they tend to get denied a lot of social interaction when they are isolated for much of the time in 'bull only' quarters.

I think one or two Euro-members, e.g. Jelle, have commented on this state of affairs in certain zoos e.g. Chester. Whipsnade has a similar regime too. At Howletts, the African bull seems to be with the herd all the time- or at least with one or two females- I've never been there on a visit and not seen him (during the day at least) in the company of other elephants. I believe that is good management.
 
Pertinax, Sorry if i gave you the wrong idea, Gung, will not be 100% along, the other original wild asia elephant exhibit is just 500 meters away, and the new bull facility is on the grounds of the original elephant exhibit. The girls, and maybe in time, any subsequen calves, will see him everyday, in line with the DEW report the zoo produced - avaliable online at zoo.nsw.gov.au, it ststaes when the new facility i built, gung must have access to the girls for an extended period of the day.
 
The thing at Chester though, is that the bull can interact with the females through the gaps in the fence, and the younger elephants can also fit through the bars and play with the current male, Upali. I think that the elephants are managed quite well at Chester to be honest.
 
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