North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Very, very interesting news.

I wonder whether this is a result of them deeming him unable to breed naturally and therefore would be better suited at a 'non breeding' facility where he can still be utilised via AI and not take up valuable space at a breeding facility.

Obviously him being unable to breed naturally is unconfirmed, but we do know he's sired two calves thus far (both via AI) and has yet to sire a calf naturally at Sedgewick for almost a decade now.

(Putting this here to avoid clogging the main thread)
In all fairness, Titian is still a fairly young bull. He's barely into his mid-teens, and many bulls do not begin to successfully breed cows until they are older. I think it's too soon to make assumptions of him being a behavioral non-breeder, especially when it is implied he had been observed breeding with some of the Sedgwick cows.

I agree it's an odd move. I wouldve thought he would be moving into a breeding situation. However I can see how there might not be any available to take him on at the moment.
Of the facilities without active bulls/cows needing bred:

San Diego Safari Park: Possibly has multiple pregnant cows and thus would not need a bull

Indianapolis: Has a bull currently and I'm unsure they can house multiple

Omaha: Already presumably at or near capacity

Tampa: Has a bull currently and I'm unsure of their capacity to house multiple

Pittsburgh: Facility may be deemed too outdated/may still figuring out changes now that they're AZA

My fingers are crossed that it's a temporary move or this is prefacing Atlanta receiving reproductive cows.

 

[The Horse Boy]

Strangely, I found out this morning that he's now at Atlanta which currently houses two post reproductive females and one mature non breeding male. IMHO all the zoos Frankie_number_1_fan listed would be far better choices for him. Kedar at Indy and Sdudla at Tampa need to move out to be traded in for other bulls with definite breeding potential, and the SDZP and young pittsburgh girls need a breeding bull immediately. But his arrival there is a slight implication that ATL is bound to become a bachelor facility in the future with msholo as perhaps a mentor. However, they have publicly stated multiple times that the maximum amount of adult elephants they can house is 7 and I always presumed that meant the ability for sizable breeding herds. They have a large barn with big stalls, one larger outdoor paddock and a smaller one about half it's size behind it. That entire exhibit rounds up to be approx. 2 acres. I suspect they could bring in a matriline split from other breeding zoos other than sedgwick for titan to mate with if they decided to do breeding herds.

 

[Christopher81]

On a somewhat similar note, I talked to some keepers at Zoo Knoxville and they told me in the zoo's master plans they have carved out space for a potential new habitat for African elephants, most likely to hold a bachelor group. It would depend on funding and probably would not happen for at least 10-15 years but its hopeful to hear we can bring elephants back to Knoxville especially given Knoxville's history as being the birth place of the first two African elephant calves in the western hemisphere. Regardless, I know plans can change but I'm going to choose to be optimistic

 

[The Horse Boy]

On a somewhat similar note, I talked to some keepers at Zoo Knoxville and they told me in the zoo's master plans they have carved out space for a potential new habitat for African elephants, most likely to hold a bachelor group. It would depend on funding and probably would not happen for at least 10-15 years but its hopeful to hear we can bring elephants back to Knoxville especially given Knoxville's history as being the birth place of the first two African elephant calves in the western hemisphere. Regardless, I know plans can change but I'm going to choose to be optimistic

Where in the zoo would that even be? I read that zoo is compacted to 53 acres of land, making it not really a large zoo. They would obviously have to build a much bigger fresh new habitat from scratch. Idk if the zoo has room for that.

 

[Milwaukee Man]

Wow, that’s a pleasant surprise! I had a bit of hope Knoxville would potentially get back into elephants, but to hear it being at least considered is great.

Where in the zoo would that even be? I read that zoo is compacted to 53 acres of land, making it not really a large zoo. They would obviously have to build a much bigger fresh new habitat from scratch. Idk if the zoo has room for that.

If I had to guess, as I remember, there’s a good amount of fairly flat land at the bottom of the hill after the Valley of the Kings complex where the old bear and African wild dog habitats were. I don’t know how much land behind it is part of the Zoo’s property, but if used accordingly, Knoxville may be able to fit a bachelor area that’s not enormous, but still a good size.

 

[The Horse Boy]

If I had to guess, as I remember, there’s a good amount of fairly flat land at the bottom of the hill after the Valley of the Kings complex where the old bear and African wild dog habitats were. I don’t know how much land behind it is part of the Zoo’s property, but if used accordingly, Knoxville may be able to fit a bachelor area that’s not enormous, but still a good size.

I guess it would have to range between 1 and 2 acres. The tyler zoo already has a bachelor habitat about that size (i posted a pic of seeing it at my visit last month on here ), and Rodger Williams, toledo, audubon, and the all the public yards at cheyenne mountain are all examples of smaller but modern complexes that can hold bachelor groups, or even small breeding herds with a breeding bull, in the future as I mentioned before. The current jacksonville elephant habitat is also not super big. But along with some tweaks to the barn and outdoor yards, they could hold bachelors no problemo.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I guess it would have to range between 1 and 2 acres. The tyler zoo already has a bachelor habitat about that size (i posted a pic of seeing it at my visit last month on here ), and Rodger Williams, toledo, audubon, and the all the public yards at cheyenne mountain are all examples of smaller but modern complexes that can hold bachelor groups, or even small breeding herds with a breeding bull, in the future as I mentioned before. The current jacksonville elephant habitat is also not super big. But along with some tweaks to the barn and outdoor yards, they could hold bachelors no problemo.

While I don't pretend to be super knowledgeable on Knoxville's space, they more than likely would be opting to build as large of a habitat as possible. Brand new complexes that are less than 2 acres are, while not unethical or "bad" per say, generally more frowned upon nowadays. So if they were to get back into elephants they would have to push for a larger space, even if their capacity was only 3-4 elephants.

 

[Christopher81]

Where in the zoo would that even be? I read that zoo is compacted to 53 acres of land, making it not really a large zoo. They would obviously have to build a much bigger fresh new habitat from scratch. Idk if the zoo has room for that.

It would be behind where the current gorilla habitat is. Its hard to visualize because it is not in use and overgrown with foliage at the moment. The zoo actually has an additional 25 acres that was acquired a few years ago. Right now it is just used for maintenance but it sits back behind where the great apes are.

 

[The Horse Boy]

It would be behind where the current gorilla habitat is. Its hard to visualize because it is not in use and overgrown with foliage at the moment. The zoo actually has an additional 25 acres that was acquired a few years ago. Right now it is just used for maintenance but it sits back behind where the great apes are.

That would have more than plentiful space to build a top tier elephant complex. Perhaps they could do both breeding and bull groups in separate yards and barns like houston does, and that brookfield should do with rheir planned future habitat.

 

[Christopher81]

That would have more than plentiful space to build a top tier elephant complex. Perhaps they could do both breeding and bull groups in separate yards and barns like houston does, and that brookfield should do with rheir planned future habitat.

I don't think they would be able to have both a breeding group and bachelors unfortunately just cause of the size and I know they are also planning an Africa themed expansion. Also, they will save some of that acreage for utilities and maintenance.

 

[The Horse Boy]

I don't think they would be able to have both a breeding group and bachelors unfortunately just cause of the size and I know they are also planning an Africa themed expansion. Also, they will save some of that acreage for utilities and maintenance.

Fair enough. I just think the aza call for new facilities to be able to house both types of herds but it's my guess based on other posts I've read here. Anyhoo, it would be great if the went the bachelor route even if they could hold about 3-4 elephants max like caldwell birmingham and audubon do, and if their new enclosure wasn't the largest.

 

[ZCChip]

(Putting this here to avoid clogging the main thread)
In all fairness, Titian is still a fairly young bull. He's barely into his mid-teens, and many bulls do not begin to successfully breed cows until they are older. I think it's too soon to make assumptions of him being a behavioral non-breeder, especially when it is implied he had been observed breeding with some of the Sedgwick cows.

I agree it's an odd move. I wouldve thought he would be moving into a breeding situation. However I can see how there might not be any available to take him on at the moment.
Of the facilities without active bulls/cows needing bred:

San Diego Safari Park: Possibly has multiple pregnant cows and thus would not need a bull

Indianapolis: Has a bull currently and I'm unsure they can house multiple

Omaha: Already presumably at or near capacity

Tampa: Has a bull currently and I'm unsure of their capacity to house multiple

Pittsburgh: Facility may be deemed too outdated/may still figuring out changes now that they're AZA

My fingers are crossed that it's a temporary move or this is prefacing Atlanta receiving reproductive cows.

Zoo Atlanta is landlocked. They had to scrape old exhibits and take some of the parking for the new African exhibit so I doubt there would be a true breeding herd with new breeding cows as long the two old cows are there along with the mature bull. Plus they share the area with giraffes and zebras etc.

It is also possible they are moving the older animals out.

we will see.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Fair enough. I just think the aza call for new facilities to be able to house both types of herds but it's my guess based on other posts I've read here. Anyhoo, it would be great if the went the bachelor route even if they could hold about 3-4 elephants max like caldwell birmingham and audubon do, and if their new enclosure wasn't the largest.

I think the "house both breeding and bachelors" expectation mainly applies to breeding facilities solely to take strain off of bachelor facilities, which cannot keep up in most cases with the rate calves are being born.

 

[USZOOfan42]

There's been rumblings about Toledo moving their entrance and building a new elephant complex within one of their parking lots, building new parking on some recently acquired land. While I want to see Toledo for myself so I can properly judge, ultimately it's the zoo's call.

Where did you here this?

 

[The Horse Boy]

I think the "house both breeding and bachelors" expectation mainly applies to breeding facilities solely to take strain off of bachelor facilities, which cannot keep up in most cases with the rate calves are being born.

I think you're right there. I know cincy's new elephant trek area currently has a small cow group along with one mature bull and two young dudes for said old one to mentor. Despite that fact, they have only 1 huge barn, so I'm not sure they can really manage both herd types separately à la Houston. All the yards there seem interconnected, as they're often meant to offer flexible spaces for any resident elephant to use rather than specifically devote them to a certain gender/herd daily.

Heck, one could argue that's what happened with titan as he had both ajani and callee for his bull coach at SCZ before his move. It's the same with Samson and Samdrua at Oregon (although samdrua should still move to st louis to replace the beloved Raja soon), and with another Samson and Tuffy at Baltimore- if they plan on breeding herds once felix passes. I believe Disney did that with a teenage bull duo before one of them moved to Tucson in the fall, and so did OKC with a couple young lads before Rex died this month. I think most newer facilities can manage only 1 mature bull no matter how many young bachelors there are, esp. in breeding scenarios. Thus they only provide one barn instead of 2 or more.

 

[The Horse Boy]

Zoo Atlanta is landlocked. They had to scrape old exhibits and take some of the parking for the new African exhibit so I doubt there would be a true breeding herd with new breeding cows as long the two old cows are there along with the mature bull. Plus they share the area with giraffes and zebras etc.

It is also possible they are moving the older animals out.

we will see.

I think titan's move there yesterday gives us a conjecture that tara and Kelly might head to a retirement home like say the Elephant Sanctuary in TN in the future to make way for a herd of younger elephants. Msholo could either stay in Hotlanta to act as mentor and sparring buddy for adolescent boys, or move to other zoos holding either holding young bulls or post reproductive cows like cheyenne mountain, elephant odyssey, caldwell, or milwaukee to provide room to house breedable young girls for titan.

And sure the enclosure does not seem humongous like lots of others built around that timeframe. But I believe managing a proper herd structure is feasible at the facility. That enclosure opened 5 years ago, and it's still much bigger and better accomodations than their old half acre habitat (counting barn space), which the white rhinos now reside.

 

[Hyak_II]

I don’t think much is going to be happening at Atlanta anytime soon.

As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread already, while Titan is fertile, he is still unproven as a natural breeding bull. Msholo, although very socially savvy, is non-viable as a breeding animal (Msholo did in fact breed at least one of the cows shortly after his arrival to the WAP, which leads me to leave that he might actually be infertile as opposed to a behavioural non breeder).

Simply put, there’s just not a surplus of animals to justify turning Atlanta into a bachelor facility and sending out their two geriatric cows. They will likely continue to hold all four for the indefinite future, the three mature adults are all socially compatible, while Titan will likely spend time either by himself or with just Msholo (although given his very species appropriate upbringing, I would not be surprised if he is able to be amicably housed with the older cows periodically as well).

 

[The Horse Boy]

I don’t think much is going to be happening at Atlanta anytime soon.

As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread already, while Titan is fertile, he is still unproven as a natural breeding bull. Msholo, although very socially savvy, is non-viable as a breeding animal (Msholo did in fact breed at least one of the cows shortly after his arrival to the WAP, which leads me to leave that he might actually be infertile as opposed to a behavioural non breeder).

Simply put, there’s just not a surplus of animals to justify turning Atlanta into a bachelor facility and sending out their two geriatric cows. They will likely continue to hold all four for the indefinite future, the three mature adults are all socially compatible, while Titan will likely spend time either by himself or with just Msholo (although given his very species appropriate upbringing, I would not be surprised if he is able to be amicably housed with the older cows periodically as well).

I suppose Louie from North Carolina and Kedar could live in ATL because they're not proven breeders, and possibly non breeders, and never really had older mentor bulls in their bachelor phases. Kedar needs to depart his native herd A$AP given how he spent his entire life at Indy.

 

[ZCChip]

I think titan's move there yesterday gives us a conjecture that tara and Kelly might head to a retirement home like say the Elephant Sanctuary in TN in the future to make way for a herd of younger elephants. Msholo could either stay in Hotlanta to act as mentor and sparring buddy for adolescent boys, or move to other zoos holding either holding young bulls or post reproductive cows like cheyenne mountain, elephant odyssey, caldwell, or milwaukee to provide room to house breedable young girls for titan.

And sure the enclosure does not seem humongous like lots of others built around that timeframe. But I believe managing a proper herd structure is feasible at the facility. That enclosure opened 5 years ago, and it's still much bigger and better accomodations than their old half acre habitat (counting barn space), which the white rhinos now reside.

zoo Atlanta has came in a long way. They used to have postage stamp exhibits. All square and dirt. I still remember seeing their Asian elephant hanging in the back in the 1980s. . I highly doubt Atlanta would want to send their elephants to TES. Their biggest money maker is the gorillas.

the new barn is “L shaped” so all of the elephants would be housed in the same area. I am not sure what the off exhibit looks like. I haven’t seen the plan in a long time but they are definitely limited in space and would have to make hard decisions if they change their program.

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

Kedar needs to depart his native herd A$AP given how he spent his entire life at Indy.

Usually captive-born bull elephants are transferred out at about 8-14 years of age from my experience for breeding or bachelor herd purposes and Kedar is now 20, and as of this moment, Indy has no immediate plans to transfer him out. Indianapolis does have the space for a bull, which he is the only one there besides the year-old calf. They also only have one breeding age cow who just gave birth to Jabari 16 months ago, so there are no real possibilities of breeding right now (though she is unrelated to him and can possibly breed together in a few years either naturally or through AI). I do suspect that once their three older girls pass, they may exercise the chance to bring in some younger cows, and potentially a new bull or two and start a breeding herd, and they will decide Kedar's fate then. I am however, hopeful that Kedar does become a proven breeder (AI or natural at any zoo) or bachelor mentor in some way in the future at Indy or whatever zoo me might move to, but for now, I believe the plan is for him is to just stay in Indianapolis.