The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
Come to think of it Howletts was the place that gave Osh to oakland 20 years ago. i was just reading a news article over it.
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North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation
- Thread starter The Horse Boy
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Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
While it may very likely be a pipe dream given the current outspoken ARAs in the US, I'd love to see an import of 3-4 unrelated cows from Asia like Australia did years back. A place like LA or San Antonio that is starting from scratch would be ideal for this, and it would introduce a much needed splash of genetic diversity to the region like their african cousins received with the several imports in previous years.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
If that were to happen, it would have to be a situation happening anywhere in wild southeast Asia where a herd would be facing dangerous situations, like the 2 events with Swaziland imports to US zoos with Africans. Zoos used to acquire elephants and animal species in general from wild captures, but I think that practice is now banned by the AZA now, except if it's a rescue scenario. Some people still believe that's where zoo animals come from tho, and it's sad to me.
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Melbourne and Taronga were very lucky to get their herd of eight across from Thailand. Auckland acquired a cow from Sri Lanka in 2015 and attempted to acquire a second a few years later but this was stopped by activists and they never ended up acquiring the cow which put an end to their breeding hopes.
In this day and age it would be incredibly difficult to replicate this. The African imports to the USA faced issues of their own and even then, those elephants were set to be culled unless they were transferred!
I find it a bit unrealistic to consider more European imports when the number of holding facilities is only set to decrease going forwards with increasing consolidation to facilities capable of holding large groups. The population can only grow so far with many zoos on the phase out. The population is not currently stable and many zoos are not willing to consider them due to the expense and heavy space requirements.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Yes it's certainly not something I expect to happen now, but it is unfortunate that the reception of nessecary wild imports is so negative. In the coming years we will likely see more and more animals being faced with culling or general human conflict that will require them to be placed in human care. Iirc there are even laws in the US now placing strict regulations on conditions in which wild elephants can be imported.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Just because several zoos are phasing out does not mean that no other facilities will opt to invest in them. Ultimately the number of phase outs will outnumber those who keep the species, but there will be a handful that choose to invest in new exhibits as we have seen happen over the past 5-10 years.
Strictly looking at Asians, imports will be main way for these facilities to obtain breeding individuals. Certianly not a cheap endeavor, but it won't be a turn off for every facility, especially if they're committed to the species. And now that Europe has taken steps to decrease breeding, it's evident they're working with the US to offload animals.
Would CITES be an issue? Plus, there is no telling if the elephants are wild bred, or captive bred as the papers can be and do get falsified in Asia.
I do agree that it would be wonderful if we can import a few elephants from Asia especially from the sources that are up to their ears with elephants that have to come out of illegal logging and the streets in Asia. I am sure there are many young ones as cows do get bred by wild bulls being tethered in the forest.
It is not the AZA. It is the government that is the issue.
Like Greenfire Farms imports rare chickens, they have to work with the regulations on both sides which can be difficult. For example, USA would not import birds from certain countries, so that country would have to send birds to somewhere like UK so Greenfire can import those birds. This is Ayam Cemani, the rare black chicken with black tongues, bones, etc.
Elephants that are captive bred (properly documented) can be imported as we just have seen. Canada and Europe do have an easier time because they are under the same government umbrella. It is in Asia that the documentation that the elephant is captive bred, as papers can be forged or used on a different elephant entirely. Among many issues. Tuberculosis is a major concern.
Would it be possible to import captive bred animals out of some Asian zoos?
No, but the number of facilities both willing and able is very low. Looking at the Pacific coast, 15 years ago I know at least seven facilities held Asian Elephant - only two of those remain holders and the long term standing of one is questionable (LA). None of those who phased out is considering bringing them back, far as is known - and several confirmed they will not. Many facilities simply do not have the space necessary to meet the current standards on their existing grounds, or switched to African which has a more stable population. The future of elephants in NA is going to heavily rely on those few that can expand and/or hold large herds. They simply do not fit into most zoos anymore, that's just the reality of the situation. However this does ultimately mean the population will have an max capacity that may not be as high as would be ideal.
Neither cheap nor ideal - and depending on the zoo a potentially unpleasant headache of PR. Ultimately relying on imports from a different continent to sustain the population means you're crossing your fingers on a lot of if's and will be restricted to the zoos that can spare the cash to do so. It's a big commitment that not all zoos can afford.
There is absolutely zero (ZERO) need to import new Asian elephants into the SSP population from Asia. Doing so would be a PR nightmare, and make absolutely zero sense on top of that.
Europe has a self sustaining population, with a large number of founder lineages completely unrepresented in North America. Australia also has a number of founders exclusive to the region, and a very limited holding capacity relative to Europe and NA.
The states doesn’t need any new cow lines. I have no doubt another matriline or two will trickle in from, most likely, Europe over the next few years, but we don’t need it. Houston will need to split matrilines sooner than later assuming they wish to keep breeding at their current pace, and white oak has cows to spare. All the other facilities currently breeding don’t need new cows.
Assuming the new herpes vaccine works as hoped, calf mortality for Asian elephants is going to go way down. That has absolutely been the main limiting factor to the US being able to grow its population, just in the past ten odd years we’ve lost the young females Lily, Kenzie, Daisy, Jazmine, Malee, plus multiple male calves to herpes.
With that reduced source of mortality, breeding facilities have the potential to fill up, relatively speaking, fast.
The US will eventually need new animals, but those will very likely come in the form of new captive bred bulls from Europe or Australia. It is FAR more PR friendly, and logistically sensible, to import from either of those regions. I don’t think you’ll find a single zoo that would want an elephant of questionable health status, social skills, breeding capability, and origin from a range country, versus a healthy, well established, socially proficient second or third generation captive bred animal from Europe or Australia.
Europe has a self sustaining population, with a large number of founder lineages completely unrepresented in North America. Australia also has a number of founders exclusive to the region, and a very limited holding capacity relative to Europe and NA.
The states doesn’t need any new cow lines. I have no doubt another matriline or two will trickle in from, most likely, Europe over the next few years, but we don’t need it. Houston will need to split matrilines sooner than later assuming they wish to keep breeding at their current pace, and white oak has cows to spare. All the other facilities currently breeding don’t need new cows.
Assuming the new herpes vaccine works as hoped, calf mortality for Asian elephants is going to go way down. That has absolutely been the main limiting factor to the US being able to grow its population, just in the past ten odd years we’ve lost the young females Lily, Kenzie, Daisy, Jazmine, Malee, plus multiple male calves to herpes.
With that reduced source of mortality, breeding facilities have the potential to fill up, relatively speaking, fast.
The US will eventually need new animals, but those will very likely come in the form of new captive bred bulls from Europe or Australia. It is FAR more PR friendly, and logistically sensible, to import from either of those regions. I don’t think you’ll find a single zoo that would want an elephant of questionable health status, social skills, breeding capability, and origin from a range country, versus a healthy, well established, socially proficient second or third generation captive bred animal from Europe or Australia.
I agree that the current genetic founder base does not require many or quite any imports right now. It just requires more intensive and effective management of what founder base, unrepresented individuals and potential and yet not mature potentially able to reproduce in future Asiatic elephants within the current population.
Furthermore, the Asiatic elephant AZA / SSP program should more effectively make use of the current under-represented individuals able to reproduce and those lineages yet to reproduce (primiparous unrepresented and wild born unrepresented) into the current AZA/SSP Asiatic elephant population.
Finally, there is a clear case to establish both more bachelor herds for growing adolescent / not yet EM intelligence (call that maturity at 28-35) bulls that need to experience how fully mature bulls behave, manifest themselves around adult sexually mature and available cows and take their ecological role within the breeding population as well as a concentrated reservoir of zoos willing and ready to take on elderly, non-reproductive, sometimes socially mal-adjusted cows into elderly cow herds.
Bachelor bulls 8-22-25-28: immature bulls at 8-12-15 may well be able to reproduce, yet are psychologically, sexually far from mature and particularly where matriarchal cow herds and established hierarchy in mature elephant cows are concerned are no where the well behaved relaxed lot that get along and mate the mature cows.
Elderly non-reproductive cow elephants 25-60-70: should ideally have a pool of locations that focus solely on this task. By concentration, I mean, that where it is a given this population will be managed to near-extinction over time ...., exactly concentration into dedicated elderly cow facilities opens up space for locations going out of elderly elephants can either create a bull bachelor herd or become part of the expanding breeding herd locations able to take herds of younger maturing cows with mature (ideally less or not represented bulls that have gone through this bachelor herd phase with an adult bull on site to breed with.
Breeding herds 12-48-52: should ideally have both a matriarchal herd area, a calving area, a separation yard and 1-2 bull yards for more than 1 bull on site.
The above is really looking at the 25-35 year time frame from 2025 onwards. Meaning in 25 years time the number of elderly non-reproductive cows will have significantly been reduced, opening up new space / facility locations for either breeding herds or bachelor bull groups.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Yes, there's little need to import new cows until a facility has room for them. LA, Tulsa and San Antonio are in theory the only locations I can see receiving new animals within the next 5 or even 10 years, and of those three I'm inclined to say San Antonio is the most realistic option. However I think it makes infinitely more sense for them to move a matriline from Houston or White Oak than import.
The primary issue with European imports is that they tend to offload animals that are of little genetic value to them, and thus far those cases have presented the US with animals that are already part of well represented lines there as well. Hopefully this won't be an issue down the line, and I don't see it as a reason to look elsewhere but it's worth noting.
I am however almost certain that if the US was presented with an oppertunity similar to the Swaiziland cows with Asian elephants (conflict animals, a culling operation, etc), and a facility would be available, they wouldn't hesitate to import those individuals. There are stricter laws in place now, but given that most of the previous cows went to already state-of-the-art or brand new facilities, I have little doubt that their imports would be stopped on a legal basis. Will that situation happen? Probably not, but I would be shocked to see them turned away by AZA decision.
I do agree this is still a glaring issue within the US population. Billy is likely never going to see a calf to his name unless LA acts fast, Ongard appears to be of no priority and Obert, despite being in the perfect position, also continues to be kept from breeding. I do think these issues could be solved with only minor rearrangements from animals already within the population, but another matriline with unrepresented genes being the ones to be bred to these bulls would be nice, even if impractical.
White Oak could certianly move a small matriline to LA, Ongard could be moved to almost any facility in the country and Obert just needs to be mixed with the two breeding cows onsite that are rapidly dwindling in their years of reproductive viability.
This is completely disregarding the situation with the ALS cows as well, who also should preferably send at least one of their matrilines to the states.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
While I'm not sure this is the thread to discuss the ethics of said import, it's no secret that several areas of both Africa and Asia have overshot their carrying capacity of elephants as human development puts strain on it. Removing those elephants from the equation lessened that strain, regardless of the motive.
Yes, the CITES trade agreements have been misappropiated either where regional conservation realities for exemption are concerned and/or the general trade provisos under which trade is partially allowed (trade for captive-breeding, ranching et al) by an internationally recognised framework of import/export permits.
Carrying capacity varies within African elephant species as well as in regional sub-populations (where in particular Namibia, Botswana have large growing populations that either require active animal population management (by way of culling with Campfire initiatives to benefit the local communities surrounding protected areas, their transfer to areas with few if any elephants left or those whose populations are genetically similar and would benefit from a transport in of several 100 to 1000 immigrant elephants.
The same is true in East Africa where in particular countries like Kenya or Uganda have well managed populations (Tanzania less so as this country has suffered bouts of instability within the Wildlife Department and consequent curious policy changes in major elephant reserves (outer Serengeti hunting areas, even Amboseli outliers and the grand Selous/Nyrere NP that was in/out of German Government support for conservation of the whole region and bouts of Govt. withdrawing access to outside fundors and consequent break-down of security policies and national funding for the local wildlife ranger force, species protection, conservation management and monitoring of focal species.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
If Billy were to never have bred in the future, LA could bring in another breeding bull along with a matriline split as backup, if they can manage multiple bulls. If that's not the case then I'm sure they could offload him to facilities not planning on breeding. Miami would be great as ongard is still in his bachelor phase, so he still could use some mentorship from elder boys now that Dalhip is dead. San Antonio could work if they decide to do bull herds. The idea I really gravitate towards would be the Audubon zoo in New Orleans. They have never housed bulls to my knowledge, but they have a new modern enclosure with an expansive 4 stall barn, meaning they can hold up to 4 animals max. Yeah, bc they said it measures to be around 1 acre it doesn't look to manage large breeding groups, but I think with their capacity, a small young male group is probable after their 3 older girls pass. If billy never breeds, it would be a perfect zoo for him to retire and mentor young bulls. They could take imports down the road if Billy doesn't fit the bill.
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Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
If Billy leaves LA it'll be to a sanctuary not another zoo. It's unfortunate but he's such an ARA target that there would be outcry and extremely negative PR to both LA and the receiving zoo if he just moved into a bachelor situation elswhere. LA should have the capacity to house multiple bulls, meaning that even if he never breeds they should be able to continue to house him either with hypothetical cows or with another bull/bulls.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
I have seen talk on here that LA could do bachelor herds, but I think that should only be if there are no breeding groups available in the next few years.