oh my mistake. I forgot he was sired by Buke. I was thinking of another bull.
North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation
- Thread starter The Horse Boy
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oh my mistake. I forgot he was sired by Buke. I was thinking of another bull.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
You're right, I think I just overgenralized my ideas of non breeding serving as a bachelor mentor. I just question if FTW is really meant to be a long term holder for Colonel is his fertility is questionable. But yesh, I think as a general rule of thumb, captive bachelor mentor bulls should be ones with excellent breeding experience so they give appropriate courting mounting and mating guidance with the adolescents- and Groucho makes a perf example as he has sired a considerable amount of Fort Worth calves before he moved to Denver if i'm right. In the wild of course, most, if not all, the mature mentor bulls for younger ones would have had loads of experience involved with breeding, and now i'm sure if it's relevant with Colonel. I'm now starting to even question why Birmingham chose Bulwalgi as the mentor bull when they opened Trails of Africa as he hasn't naturally produced offspring, and he has only a small number of ai born individuals from the 2000s sitting in zoos scattered accross the country.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said Colonel wouldn't necessarily be a great choice to replace Groucho in Denver.
A bull doesn't need to have breeding experience to be a valuable mentor to younger animals. After all, they're gaining social skills in bachelor facilities, not necessarily learning how to breed. A bull can be a behavioral non-breeder and still teach younger bulls proper manners, social order and other very valuable skills. Hank in Columbus was wonderful to Beco for instance, as was Bulwagi with Callee, Ajani, etc. The critical window of observing natural breeding occurs when young bulls are still with their natal herds in most zoo settings, with minor exceptions.
I mentioned Colonel as being a potentially poor choice for a facility like Denver because he has had a very rocky social life up until a little over ten years ago, and hasn't been particularly socially savvy since then. Denver has a large capacity and large current holding, and it's arguable that a bull used to living in and navigating a sizable herd group would thrive better in such an enviornment.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
It has been rehashed on this forum numerous time that captive bulls tend the be the most effective breeders if they grew up observering proper breeding behaviors during their calfhood and birth herd years, and more and more zoos have gradually started to realize that. And sadly, a lot of the younger AI born bulls such as Louie Ajani and Kandula have been unlucky to have never witnessed such demeanors throughout their formative years, let alone even been around mature bulls when in the calf stages. The lucky thing here is that the amount of Asian bulls with natural breeding proficiency far surpasses the number of Africans across US facilities, so i don't really regard it being a big deal if Colonel never does breed cows (Kandula too). Side note about non breeding bulls being bachelor mentors, Ajani would personally be a great candidate for this position down the line as it's more about general adult bull-hood than breeding competence like you noted
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
I know that Kianga is one of the 2 officially confirmed pregnant DAK cows, if that’s still true, so her calf could drop anytime this year or the next. But I remember seeing posts on last year's African news thread highlighting that since Rafiki died over 5 or so years ago now, her mom Vasha is somehow estranged from Donna, the other older mom with a more well sized family grouping, and they can't even hang in close each other. I'm not super sure how they're managed separately, but I feel keep these 2 mother cows who are now offhand towards each other is getting fruitless in the long run. Dispatching them another facility that would more than gladly welcome a new breeding herd such as a mother/daughter duo with open arms, esp when Kianga's calf reaches 1 or 2 (as I think that's the minimum age for transporting an elephant). Existing post-reproductive facilities with admirable programs could work like Atlanta NC Cleveland or Jacksonville could work, and Brookfield and Memphis likely will open new complexes by the time Kianga's calf reaches the appropiate age for transfer.
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Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Just from a logistics standpoint we will almost certianly see Vasha's line moved at some point. DAK has a great set-up and a nice capacity, but eventually it will make more sense to fully focus on breeding Donna's daughters and granddaughters.
However I don't feel like that move will occur for the better part of a decade. DAK has a great system at the moment. They have three (or four, not sure off the top of my head) yards that allow them to rotate their three groups outside. Kianga gets along just fine with Donna and rotates between spending time with Donna's girls and spending time with her mother. Similarly Donna's daughters get along fine with Vasha and are able to be on exhibit with her as well. It's not a "natural" system but it works pretty well and should work well until space becomes an issue.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
I did see a post stating that the ill will is more just between strictly between Vasha and Donna, but the rest of the cows get along just fine in both ends. Is DAK having 3 or 4 yards why they can separately house a bachelor like with Tsava and Jabali? The barn space would be another concern regarding both the issue with vasha and her daugther away from Donna's line and managing a bachelor group.
They have separate bull yards, yes.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
So is DAK not at capacity if they're still able to manage a bachelor troop Donna's family and Vasha and Kianaga separately?
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
If they were at capacity then they would be waiting to breed their younger cows. They have quite a spacious facility.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
Well we could argue that that's starting to take off now as like I said Kianga and Luna are about due soon. I think both Donna and Vasha are past their prime now at both around 40 and not having produced calfs in at least a decade now.
Quit with the rambling, argumentative posts - please and thank you.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Do note that is extremely likely that Luna or Kianga has miscarried (but I believe it was reasonably deducted that Luna was the cow that miscarried). Breeding Kianga is urgent due to her age but Luna and Stella both have a decently cushy amount of time before it becomes critical for them to conceive, and yet both girls either were bred (Luna) or have plans to be (Stella). Disney has waited years between calves before, and if they are pushing capacity there is zero reason for them to be so proactive in breeding their youngest cows.
I'm not super familiar with the size of their barn but their yards are quite spacious. They only have 9 animals right now and imo could push for 4-5 more before space becomes an issue.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
Hey hey hey, please note I wasn't trying to be contentious, by argue I was just pointing out that it's true that the younger DAK girls are indeed
on the road to being bred. I think you took the meaning of my post a bit too literally. Thanks for your understanding!
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With all due respect, and this isn’t meant to come across as rude or personally towards you, but why do you repeatedly rehash stuff that has been talked about over and over again? Regarding Disney, if every African Elephant cow there is eligible to breed, the direction breeding wise is they’re likely going to breed it. There is absolutely ZERO need to not be breeding every female African elephant in the United States right now. Disney has the space to breed African elephants, hence why they are there right now breeding. Also the plan is unless this has changed, but Maclean is there to breed with every cow he can at Disney except for his daughters, and his daughters will breed with Jabali from Donna’s side. But this has been talked about extensively. Plus Disney has already confirmed their elephant calves for this year are due in 2025. I guarantee you as well, given the direction African elephant management is going in the United States that if Disney has to move Vashas line out to make space, they will.
I understand this is a speculation thread, but to me it is pointless to rehash the same stuff over and over again over numerous occasions when the situation hasn’t changed. And spamming entire threads about stuff that has been repeatedly hashed to me is also pointless.
With the discussion about DAK and the potential direction it could go down the road. Here is the population right now:
Cora (father unknown x Nadirah who is Jack x Donna)
Donna (3 daughters with her at the zoo. Wild caught).
Jabali (male, Ali x Vasha)
Kianga (Jack x Vasha) pregnant
Luna (Ali x Donna) pregnant
Maclean (male, wild caught)
Naridah (Jack x Donna)
Rafiki (female, wild caught, no calves. I assume she’s a flatliner now).
Stella (Maclean x Donna)
Vasha (wild caught, mother of one son and one daughter mentioned above).
Stella would be next to get pregnant it seems as she is 9 years old.
DAK has many ways to get around with this program. Tampa is not that far either with another hopefully active breeding group of Africans.
Cora (father unknown x Nadirah who is Jack x Donna)
Donna (3 daughters with her at the zoo. Wild caught).
Jabali (male, Ali x Vasha)
Kianga (Jack x Vasha) pregnant
Luna (Ali x Donna) pregnant
Maclean (male, wild caught)
Naridah (Jack x Donna)
Rafiki (female, wild caught, no calves. I assume she’s a flatliner now).
Stella (Maclean x Donna)
Vasha (wild caught, mother of one son and one daughter mentioned above).
Stella would be next to get pregnant it seems as she is 9 years old.
DAK has many ways to get around with this program. Tampa is not that far either with another hopefully active breeding group of Africans.
Cora’s dad is Maclean and was born through natural breeding.
Baby Elephant Debuts on Animal Kingdom Savanna
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
To be fair, I did not know if the Disney breeding scenarios and stuff was rehashed too often by various users on ZC- again, still learning the rules of effectively posting on this site with some mishaps on the way. I actually have not brought up Kianga's breeding situation much and this was the first time I brought up this new hostility between Donna and Vasha, and that topic only got discussed once on last year's african news thread if i'm correct. That being said, please understand that I did not intend to clog up this thread with info that might have been more repetitive or meaningless than I realized. I know you weren't trying to insult me, everyone could use some constructive criticism to keep my abilities and hobbies growing. Hope everything should be all right.
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Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Rafiki passed away in 2019. She was the Matriarch and because her death left the herd without one, Vasha and Donna stopped tolerating each other. Last I'd heard no one had stepped back up to be Matriarch since.
As for Stella, she is 8 years old and could easily be pregnant already! She was a priority female if I remember correctly so I wouldn't be at all surprised, especially with a calf on the ground already and another one on the way.
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The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
Isn't 8 the earliest breeding age for cows recommended by the AZA/SSP as with Joy's situation at Houston?
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