North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Was it not Swazi that is/was supposedly the cow who didn't like him? I don't believe I've ever seen anything about Ndula disliking him.
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It was indeed Swazi who disliked him, she is the matriarch of the Safari Park herd.
From San Diego Zoo's Facebook page announcing Musi's arrival to the zoo in 2024:
"Elephants are matriarchal (female-led) societies, meaning the ladies decide when males are accepted into the herd and when it’s time for them to go. For this reason, sub-adult male African elephants continuously move in and out of different groups throughout their lifetime, occasionally joining bachelor groups, or choosing to live independently.
In Musi’s case, Swazi, the matriarch of the Safari Park herd, decided it was time for him to leave, but thankfully, the Zoo’s bachelor group was accepting new members. Musi’s move to the Zoo allows him key development opportunities to care for younger elephants. His supportive social style will help shape Sundzu and Nipho as they continue to build upon their skillsets needed for integration into matriarchal herds later on in life."
 
Nile Hippo Expert said:
It was indeed Swazi who disliked him, she is the matriarch of the Safari Park herd.
From San Diego Zoo's Facebook page announcing Musi's arrival to the zoo in 2024:
"Elephants are matriarchal (female-led) societies, meaning the ladies decide when males are accepted into the herd and when it’s time for them to go. For this reason, sub-adult male African elephants continuously move in and out of different groups throughout their lifetime, occasionally joining bachelor groups, or choosing to live independently.
In Musi’s case, Swazi, the matriarch of the Safari Park herd, decided it was time for him to leave, but thankfully, the Zoo’s bachelor group was accepting new members. Musi’s move to the Zoo allows him key development opportunities to care for younger elephants. His supportive social style will help shape Sundzu and Nipho as they continue to build upon their skillsets needed for integration into matriarchal herds later on in life."
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Considering the San Diego Zoo wants to possibly move Vus Musi back to the San Diego Zoo Safari Park and bull elephants naturally leave matriarchal herds anyway, it sounded like for a while Swazi the parks matriarch was getting along with him based on the wording in the post. Cause how they said it was the parks matriarch decided it was time for him to leave, it didn’t say she didn’t get along with him altogether.
 
Will the new elephant valley be able to house multiple adult bulls and possibly bachelor herds alongside breeding groups?
 
Nile Hippo Expert said:
It was indeed Swazi who disliked him, she is the matriarch of the Safari Park herd.
From San Diego Zoo's Facebook page announcing Musi's arrival to the zoo in 2024:
"Elephants are matriarchal (female-led) societies, meaning the ladies decide when males are accepted into the herd and when it’s time for them to go. For this reason, sub-adult male African elephants continuously move in and out of different groups throughout their lifetime, occasionally joining bachelor groups, or choosing to live independently.
In Musi’s case, Swazi, the matriarch of the Safari Park herd, decided it was time for him to leave, but thankfully, the Zoo’s bachelor group was accepting new members. Musi’s move to the Zoo allows him key development opportunities to care for younger elephants. His supportive social style will help shape Sundzu and Nipho as they continue to build upon their skillsets needed for integration into matriarchal herds later on in life."
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The wording and the fact he was 20 and starting to approach full maturity would imply to me he was given the push to move along for awhile, rather than outright dislike by the matriarch. It's not abnormal for male elephants to come and go from groups, as the post mentions.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
There is zero reason for the safari park to have seperate bachelor holding, the main zoo serves that purpose for them.
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I think that should serve as a compromise for the fact that the AZA pushes for new or renovated exhibits to be able to hold multigenerational AND bachelor groupings separately. But it's a tall order for most facilities to be able to dedicate separate enclosures and barns to simultaneously manage different herds. That is what is turning Louisville off for building a new habitat and bringing back elephants. IMO expecting all new exhibits to capable of holding both herd types at the same time is just very excessive and unrealistic.
 
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Great Argus said:
The wording and the fact he was 20 and starting to approach full maturity would imply to me he was given the push to move along for awhile, rather than outright dislike by the matriarch. It's not abnormal for male elephants to come and go from groups, as the post mentions.
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Matriarchs have the duty of pushing bulls away when they're tolerated around the herd anymore. This is perfectly normal and bulls only really join herds for small periods of socialisation and breeding.

The post makes it seem like he was and had been living with the group full time though, which is interesting. As has been mentioned, accommodation would've been quite strict with the redevelopment; potentially requiring him to be grouped with the cows more often than before (which perhaps the group reacted adversely too).
 
Circling back on Swazi's retirement from breeding, this would make some sense to me if it's true.

While unfortunate to have a wild-born founder who has successfully bred twice not continue producing - she hasn't had a calf in 13 years. Furthermore - she had her first calf much older than the rest of the females, took much longer to conceive/maintain a pregnancy than any of the others given equal opportunity, and was obviously not successful in producing a viable pregnancy/live calf when Mabu returned last time, even if she did conceive at all.

Meanwhile the other two older females have been breeding longer, have had more calves, and have had calves in the last 7 years.

Unfortunate, but I could see why it's not recommended if that is a true statement.
 
Regarding African imports from Europe, wouldn't Cabarceno be good facility for US ones to turn to? They have a large herd with multiple family units afaik. Valencia (also in Spain) could be another great candidate as breeding is starting take off these if i'm right, and they have about 6 unrelated younger cows. I know the US is already plentiful with viable African matrilines, but i feel an import can't hurt down the line, as they're often done to create to create a healthier more sprawling gene pool. And it's been restated on this forum a few times that America could use an African breeding bull import from Europe given how the current population in the former country is fairly constricted.
 
The US does *not* need cow imports right now.

Between San Diego, Sedgwick, Omaha, Tampa, and Disney alone, there are 18 viable and distinct matrilines, and virtually every single one of those facilities is either close to, or at, capacity, with most of those founding cows only having one or two offspring themselves. There’s zero need to import more cows from Europe, we simply don’t need the additional numbers right now.

Bulls though, are a completely different story. The US desperately needs more viable breeding bulls, and of new founding lineages as well. Europe is slightly better off, but ultimately could still utilize more founding bulls as well. The states has an abundance of Mabu and Callee sons, both of whom are unrepresented in Europe. Conversely, Europe has a plethora of Tusker and Jums sons, who similarly have zero representation in North America. All these young bulls would likely make for excellent natural breeders, and be excellent prospects for bull swaps between countries.
 
Hyak_II said:
Bulls though, are a completely different story. The US desperately needs more viable breeding bulls, and of new founding lineages as well. Europe is slightly better off, but ultimately could still utilize more founding bulls as well. The states has an abundance of Mabu and Callee sons, both of whom are unrepresented in Europe. Conversely, Europe has a plethora of Tusker and Jums sons, who similarly have zero representation in North America. All these young bulls would likely make for excellent natural breeders, and be excellent prospects for bull swaps between countries.
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I know earlier this year @Mr Ivory said there's a couple of bachelor males at Noah's Ark Farm that could go because they have genetic value according to them. Possibly Tamo, Kibo, Yoga, or Abu could work as they're the only prolific European African breeders off the top of my head.
 
But going back to my point - what drive would the EEP have to do that? Among the 3 most recent imports - one has been wasted in Canada for over a decade, one was wasted to a sanctuary, and the other passed away in short order at a facility embroiled in an AZA political battle. It doesn't exactly give "you should send us more" energy. :/
 
The Horse Boy said:
I know earlier this year @Mr Ivory said there's a couple of bachelor males at Noah's Ark Farm that could go because they have genetic value according to them. Possibly Tamo, Kibo, Yoga, or Abu could work as they're the only prolific European African breeders off the top of my head.
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None of those bulls would be good options.

First of all, they’re all adults, and logistically moving an adult, 8-10,000 pound bull is much more difficult than a 3-5000 pound subadult.

Moreover, none would be options for other reasons. Yoga is a founder with only four surviving offspring, they would be daft to send him out of the region. Abu is essentially a founder (both parents wild caught, his only other relatives are a half brother who has yet to prove himself, and his 7 young offspring), and Tamo and Kibo are the only breeding sons of Tusker for the foreseeable future, and also of reasonable genetic value on their mothers sides.

Europe still needs socially competent breeding bulls, and what you suggested are four of probably 15 or so in the entire region.

No, bulls that would be good options for import would be younger animals, still socially savvy but better to export for a variety of reasons. Gus at Wuppertal, any of the Jums sons at Cabarceno, or even Jogi, Shawu, or Tuluba from France.
 
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Hyak_II said:
None of those bulls would be good options.

First of all, they’re all adults, and logistically moving an adult, 8-10,000 pound bull is much more difficult than a 3-5000 pound subadult.

Moreover, none would be options for other reasons. Yoga is a founder with only four surviving offspring, they would be daft to send him out of the region. Abu is essentially a founder (both parents wild caught, his only other relatives are a half brother who has yet to prove himself, and his 7 young offspring), and Tamo and Kibo are the only breeding sons of Tusker for the foreseeable future, and also of reasonable genetic value on their mothers sides.

Europe still needs socially competent breeding bulls, and what you suggested are four of probably 15 or so in the entire region.

No, bulls that would be good options for import would be younger animals, still socially savvy but better to export for a variety of reasons. Gus at Wuppertal, any of the Jums sons at Cabarceno, or even Tamo, Shawu, or Tuluba from France.
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IG any of the bachelors at La Teste, Gyor or Thoiry could do then. On the whole, I think just 1 or 2 bull imports would do the tricks
 
John Marchwick said:
it has been explained previously that there are some facilities who have not yet announced their pregnancies, and there are more bulls as well becoming proven breeders in the African elephant population. I know of one bull who has offspring on the way that is a first time father and if all goes well, they should be born by no later than early 2026.
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Looking at the zoos that have young, unproven bulls, the only realistic options are Musi, Tamani, and Kedar, with the most likely candidate being Musi, though it would abosulety amazing for either Kedar or Tamani to sire a calf.
 
The Horse Boy said:
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IG any of the bachelors at La Teste, Gyor or Thoiry could do then. On the whole, I think just 1 or 2 bull imports would do the tricks
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No, none of those bulls would be good options either, barring the La Teste boys.

Gyor, from what I've heard, is set to eventually have Pembe become their breeding bull, Bou Bou is essentially a founder, Kito is very genetically valuable, and Rungwe is his founder mothers only offspring. All animals prudent to keep in the region.

Thoiry, Ben and Boten are both adult sized, Jabu is his sires only surviving son and genetically valuable on both parents sides, and while Moyo would genetically be a good option, Gus at Wuppertal is a full sibling, younger (and therefore smaller and easier to move), and is still in his natal herd, as opposed to being in an established bachelor herd, and would therefore be the better option to move overseas.
 
Mr.Ivory said:
Looking at the zoos that have young, unproven bulls, the only realistic options are Musi, Tamani, and Kedar, with the most likely candidate being Musi, though it would abosulety amazing for either Kedar or Tamani to sire a calf.
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I personally have doubts about the prospect of Kedar breeding. It's been rehashed often that he clearly hasn't acquired to appropiate level of expertise needed for effectively flirting with and impregnating cows re. Indy putting all their eggs in one basket with AI breeding. My standpoint is that he's another bull better off in bachelor holding or as a geriatric cow roommate.
 
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Mr.Ivory said:
Looking at the zoos that have young, unproven bulls, the only realistic options are Musi, Tamani, and Kedar, with the most likely candidate being Musi, though it would abosulety amazing for either Kedar or Tamani to sire a calf.
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Keep in mind that the first-time father in question has sired multiple pregnancies, putting Kedar out of the picture (unless he somehow miraculously sired a calf with Ivory, who hasn't conceived in well over a decade). Tamani is a possibility, but considering that Christie hasn't given birth in pushing 20 years, and Tamani's upbringing being less than ideal, I'd say it's a relatively safe assumption that it isn't him either.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Keep in mind that the first-time father in question has sired multiple pregnancies, putting Kedar out of the picture (unless he somehow miraculously sired a calf with Ivory, who hasn't conceived in well over a decade). Tamani is a possibility, but considering that Christie hasn't given birth in pushing 20 years, and Tamani's upbringing being less than ideal, I'd say it's a relatively safe assumption that it isn't him either.
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That said, my jaw is going to drop if we do see some sort of dark horse thing happen... lol
 
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