North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

[The Horse Boy]

Tamani is a possibility, but considering that Christie hasn't given birth in pushing 20 years, and Tamani's upbringing being less than ideal, I'd say it's a relatively safe assumption that it isn't him either.

I thought Tamani had witnessed Sdudla breeding their two adults cows when he was around 5 to 7. Keep in mind that Sdudla came to Tampa in 2010, after a short breeding stint at Montgomery, then Tamani left for his short lived bachelor life it Birmingham in 2012 2 years afterwards. And then the two younger girls were born at the very end of 2012 and mid 2013. My conclusion of these 3 conversation points is that given the almost 2 year long gestation period in elephants, Tamani would have seen Sdudle court and mount the cows AT LEAST twice before he went to the bachelor facility if the latter started impregnating them around early-mid 2011, and I don’t think that would have truly dented his confidence. He'll, there are two other captive bulls i know who would have witnessed only two successful natural breeding attempts before their departure then eventually evolved to develop a strong point in breeding like Callee when he lived at Pittsburgh and Bowie when he was in Ft Worth.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I thought Tamani had witnessed Sdudla breeding their two adults cows when he was around 5 to 7. Keep in mind that Sdudla came to Tampa in 2010, after a short breeding stint at Montgomery, then Tamani left for his short lived bachelor life it Birmingham in 2012 2 years afterwards. And then the two younger girls were born at the very end of 2012 and mid 2013. My conclusion of these 3 conversation points is that given the almost 2 year long gestation period in elephants, Tamani would have seen Sdudle court and mount the cows AT LEAST twice before he went to the bachelor facility if the latter started impregnating them around early-mid 2011, and I don’t think that would have truly dented his confidence. He'll, there are two other captive bulls i know who would have witnessed only two successful natural breeding attempts before their departure then eventually evolved to develop a strong point in breeding like Callee when he lived at Pittsburgh and Bowie when he was in Ft Worth.

You cannot say that sucessful pregnancies/births are the only times a young bull would've witnessed breeding. Not every sucessful mounting amounts in a calf after all. Callee for instance likely witnessed numerous breeding attemps in his time at Pittsburgh that extended the amount of calves we saw on the ground. Tamani could've, but given his age at the time of Sdudla's arrival, it is up in the air (unless someone with further knowledge knows otherwise). I will say I am not familiar with whether Tamani had been seperated from his mother by the time Sdudla returned.
Either way though, the point remains that he is an inexperienced bull being placed with a much older cow that has not only never been bred naturally before, but also hasn't conceived in 17-18ish years. He very well may have luck with Zuri, but I'm not holding my breath with Christie.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

That said, my jaw is going to drop if we do see some sort of dark horse thing happen... lol

Oh definitely, I would love to eat my words given the value of both bulls

 

[The Horse Boy]

Either way though, the point remains that he is an inexperienced bull being placed with a much older cow that has not only never been bred naturally before, but also hasn't conceived in 17-18ish years. He very well may have luck with Zuri, but I'm not holding my breath with Christie.

I'd frankly throw Christie's potential out the window ATP as Zuri's the only calf she's ever produced. I think the only viable cow at KC would be Zuri, and that frankly shouldn't be a big a deal as there a few other facilities with only one breeding age cow with positive breeding prospects. Zuri and Tamani also don't have a far age gap, which also increases her likelihood of successful pregnancies from him if that were to happen ofc

 

[Hyak_II]

Keep in mind that the first-time father in question has sired multiple pregnancies, putting Kedar out of the picture (unless he somehow miraculously sired a calf with Ivory, who hasn't conceived in well over a decade). Tamani is a possibility, but considering that Christie hasn't given birth in pushing 20 years, and Tamani's upbringing being less than ideal, I'd say it's a relatively safe assumption that it isn't him either.

Just to play devils advocate, Tamani's upbringing honestly wasn't terrible by any stretch. He *was* raised in a herd environment, would have most likely had the chance to witness natural breeding (the two Tampa girls were conceived while he was still there) and was in a proper bachelor holding situation for a number of years as well. Of Bulwagi's three offspring, Tamani is by far the best situated to become a natural breeder. Of course the past 10 years he's spent solo with just older cows isn't great, but the foundation *is* there to be a decent breeding bull.

Honestly, same with Kedar. I wouldn't be surprised if a move to a new location is all he needs to kickstart his career as a breeding bull. He was also raised in a herd environment, and most of all, he had Zahara as a same age play mate, so he doubtlessly was able to engage in age and species appropriate play, which for elephants, does involve a sexual component at fairly young ages. It's been similar situations for multiple other bulls (Yoga, Tooth, and Jack in Europe, just to name a few) where they seem to be duds at whatever facility they spent their formative years, but as soon as they move to a new facility as a now sexually mature and more-or-less physically mature animal, they suddenly just take off breeding as long as the cows are willing.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Honestly, same with Kedar. I wouldn't be surprised if a move to a new location is all he needs to kickstart his career as a breeding bull. He was also raised in a herd environment, and most of all, he had Zahara as a same age play mate, so he doubtlessly was able to engage in age and species appropriate play, which for elephants, does involve a sexual component at fairly young ages. It's been similar situations for multiple other bulls (Yoga, Tooth, and Jack in Europe, just to name a few) where they seem to be duds at whatever facility they spent their formative years, but as soon as they move to a new facility as a now sexually mature and more-or-less physically mature animal, they suddenly just take off breeding as long as the cows are willing.

I certianly hope this would be the case for Kedar, but Indy for whatever reason doesn't seem keen to send him elswhere. They are very proud of being one of the few facilities to rely solely on AI (Last summer I even heard a staff member boasting about how "convenient" it is to use the practice versus having an onsite bull!
Ideally he should be booted off to a bachelor facility for a few years at the very least to leave Indy with room for a more experienced bull. You do have a good point about him growing up with a peer calf, that certianly could be a factor in a potential success. Either way he needs moved asap, he's evidently not contributing much where he is right now!

 

[The Horse Boy]

They are very proud of being one of the few facilities to rely solely on AI (Last summer I even heard a staff member boasting about how "convenient" it is to use the practice versus having an onsite bull!

I really hope this stops in the near future. It's very crytic to me on why Indy is over reliant on AI. AI births should only be done as a last resort type of event IMHO. It involves much more logistics and complications than natural breeding

 

[John Marchwick]

Looking at the zoos that have young, unproven bulls, the only realistic options are Musi, Tamani, and Kedar, with the most likely candidate being Musi, though it would abosulety amazing for either Kedar or Tamani to sire a calf.

Lunas pregnancy at Disneys Animal Kingdom was from natural breeding as far as I’m aware, which therefore either Tsavo or Jabali at the time naturally impregnated her.

Additinally, I wouldn’t rule out yet Titan or Samson for that matter either in terms of viable breeding bulls.

 

[John Marchwick]

I'm definitely inclined to agree. Tamani was moved out of Tampa before Sdudla arrived, missing out on any experience with natural breeding. While he did spend time at a bachelor facility and likely is a very socially savvy bull, the odds are not in his favor to know what to do mating-wise. It's really in their best interests to bring in an experienced bull to get Zuri pregnant, and then allow some time for Tamani to try and grasp the ropes.

This is not correct, Tamani moved out of Tampa after Sdudla arrived. He most definitely witnessed natural breeding from him before he moved as he arrived at the Kansas City Zoo in 2015. Sdudla calves at ZooTampa were born in 2012 and 2013.

 

[The Horse Boy]

any of the Jums sons at Cabarceno,

How many sons does Jums have living at the facility? I just discoverd on Elephant.se that he has a son in his late 20's living at the Safari park, so he'd be out the window as a cnadidate for a US import. Might Cabarceno house young bulls that aren't any of Jum's offspring that could fit the bill?

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

How many sons does Jums have living at the facility? I just discoverd on Elephant.se that he has a son in his late 20's living at the Safari park, so he'd be out the window as a cnadidate for a US import. Might Cabarceno house young bulls that aren't any of Jum's offspring?

Jums has just the one confirmed son at Cabarceno, (Jumar), and through him he has a grandson at the facility (Toranzo), plus two other bulls (Martin and Toribio) who are also either Jums' sons or grandsons.
(*also further discussion on this should probably be done in the European thread rather than here*)

 

[The Horse Boy]

Jums has just the one confirmed son at Cabarceno, (Jumar), and through him he has a grandson at the facility (Toranzo), plus two other bulls (Martin and Toribio) who are also either Jums' sons or grandsons.

These 3 you listed could be good candidates for US imports down the line. 2 of the ones you listed are pretty much still juveniles, and Martin would be nearing the appropiate age for transport to a breeding herd there.

 

[Hyak_II]

So not to go to off-topic on this specifically, but a slight correction on the Cabarceno offspring. I can’t remember where I saw this, but as far as I’m aware, they’ve determined that virtually all the calves born there after Jums arrived have been sired by either Yambo (prior to his departure) or Jums. I don’t *believe* Junmar has been a confirmed sire to any of them yet, despite what some databases list.

Also of note, Martin shares no relation to Jums or Junmar. His sire was a bull named Pambo, and his mother Hilda was sired by Cabarcenos original breeding bull, Chisco.

Also also, that would be another prime candidate for export to the states. There’s an inbred bull, Nico, out of a half sibling breeding (Yambo x Cristina) currently at Opel. He spent his first few years at Cabarceno, and would likely make for an excellent breeding bull as he matures! He’s still young as well and of an easier size to transport.

 

[ZCChip]

Not being a negative Karen but how would they ship a bull out of Cabarcenos if they manage the elephant nearly off contact? There is quarantine and so on. Thats a long process to get into USA

 

[E Maximus]

This is not correct, Tamani moved out of Tampa after Sdudla arrived. He most definitely witnessed natural breeding from him before he moved as he arrived at the Kansas City Zoo in 2015. Sdudla calves at ZooTampa were born in 2012 and 2013.

Tamani moved to Birmingham before he went to Kansas City. He left Tampa in April of 2012. He was however a regular part of the cow herd and witnessed breeding from both Sdudla and Msholo with all the girls.

 

[E Maximus]

Not being a negative Karen but how would they ship a bull out of Cabarcenos if they manage the elephant nearly off contact? There is quarantine and so on. Thats a long process to get into USA

Quarantine for imports to the US is handled at the receiving institution. They would only have to get him crate trained. Although hands off, training is still done, hence bulls being moved out of there before.

 

[The Horse Boy]

Circling back to the topic of African Bull imports, I feel the best facilities eager to recieve one would Brookfield and Memphis after their new facilities open sometime in sevearal years from now.

 

[John Marchwick]

Tamani moved to Birmingham before he went to Kansas City. He left Tampa in April of 2012. He was however a regular part of the cow herd and witnessed breeding from both Sdudla and Msholo with all the girls.

Oh. My apologies. I didn’t know he had gone to Birmingham prior to being transferred to Kansas City.

 

[ZCChip]

How many sons does Jums have living at the facility? I just discoverd on Elephant.se that he has a son in his late 20's living at the Safari park, so he'd be out the window as a cnadidate for a US import. Might Cabarceno house young bulls that aren't any of Jum's offspring that could fit the bill?

I should note that elephant.se is not the most accurate online elephant database. For example: who is the sire of Columbus' new calf according to elephant.se? Unnamed at Columbus Zoo and Aquarium in United States - Elephant Encyclopedia and Database That is a very fast elephant pregnancy!

I do like the online databases, but occasionally they are not correct or not updated. Sometimes there are births, deaths, transfers that we do not know about for months or occasionally years.

 

[ZCChip]

That was indeed how I researched which young bulls could be viable individuals for a US import.

you can play around on this site. Petra Prager – Elefanten-Fotolexikon

On a realistic side though, I do not see anything happening with the Africans; there are a handful of bulls that are not utilized (or barely utilized such as the bull at Tampa) in the US. We are getting rampant with the offspring with the Jack and Mabu bloodlines. The next import possibly could be the bull in Canada that came from UK.

Mexico has a breeding herd already. I wonder how are they going to manage their genetics.

Maybe an occasional Asian bull from Europe in the nearer future as the USA is getting saturated with the Motek X Warda cross (Alexander, Phoebe, Lilly at Rockton, and more in an exhaustive list). Europe is having the same issue with that cross. There are a few other extensive families on a lesser degree.

I encourage you to write down the family trees on a piece of paper and see who is related to who, and where they are. But we do not make the decisions, the administration does at the end.