North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

[Wisp O' Mist]

At one point the Cincinnati Zoo was discussing sending the three older gals to the Elephant Sanctuary in Tenenesse but these we ruled over with concerns from the elephant team.

What concerns did the elephant team have?

I know that The Elephant Sanctuary isn't perfect, but it seems to work well enough as the AZA's (unofficial) designated elephant retirement facility.

I understand that the elephant keepers are doubtlessly attached to the three older cows, but opting to keep three non-breeding animals after going through all the stress and trouble of importing an entire new breeding herd from overseas strikes me as a rather inefficient use of time, money and space.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

What concerns did the elephant team have?

I know that The Elephant Sanctuary isn't perfect, but it seems to work well enough as the AZA's (unofficial) designated elephant retirement facility.

I understand that the elephant keepers are doubtlessly attached to the three older cows, but opting to keep three non-breeding animals after going through all the stress and trouble of importing an entire new breeding herd from overseas strikes me as a rather inefficient use of time, money and space.

Especially given that there's no guarantee that the more confrontational girls like Shottzie and Jati will even be ABLE to integrate into the Dublin herd. If that fails then Cinci will have a herd of two (or three if Mai Thai fails to integrate) cows that are essentially just taking up space. If Yasmin/SheRa and Anak follow their past birthing intervals, the zoo could easily have four calves in a decade. I know Elephant Trek will have a lot more holding space but if the zoo wants a genuine breeding herd then keeping three post reductive females, one of them with a history of aggression towards other females, just doesn't sound like a great decision in the long run.

If all the girls can get along as one herd then thats a different story, but it still feels like a waste to some degree knowing that none of the three older girls have had any calf experience recently that I know of, so who knows how'd they'd act around calves as well.
I know the Cinci staff know what they're doing but this entire situation feels like a massive gamble.

 

[Jambo]

Especially given that there's no guarantee that the more confrontational girls like Shottzie and Jati will even be ABLE to integrate into the Dublin herd. If that fails then Cinci will have a herd of two (or three if Mai Thai fails to integrate) cows that are essentially just taking up space. If Yasmin/SheRa and Anak follow their past birthing intervals, the zoo could easily have four calves in a decade. I know Elephant Trek will have a lot more holding space but if the zoo wants a genuine breeding herd then keeping three post reductive females, one of them with a history of aggression towards other females, just doesn't sound like a great decision in the long run.

If all the girls can get along as one herd then thats a different story, but it still feels like a waste to some degree knowing that none of the three older girls have had any calf experience recently that I know of, so who knows how'd they'd act around calves as well.
I know the Cinci staff know what they're doing but this entire situation feels like a massive gamble.

I guess the best case scenario here is all three older cows integrate well with the new Dublin herd and a cohesive herd is established. Worst case, some of the older cows won’t get along well with the new herd but there’s no reason this shouldn’t be attempted.

There’s no harm in attempting introductions, especially as the new social situations will be very beneficial to the current older cows (especially with the young bulls and future calves too!).

Space also shouldn’t be an issue. Cincy only have two reproductive cows and breeding them at natural intervals will give Cincy four calves maximum by the end of this decade. The region has space to accomodate the two current bulls if needed too (to create more space if required).

 

[E Maximus]

I guess the best case scenario here is all three older cows integrate well with the new Dublin herd and a cohesive herd is established. Worst case, some of the older cows won’t get along well with the new herd but there’s no reason this shouldn’t be attempted.

There’s no harm in attempting introductions, especially as the new social situations will be very beneficial to the current older cows (especially with the young bulls and future calves too!).

Space also shouldn’t be an issue. Cincy only have two reproductive cows and breeding them at natural intervals will give Cincy four calves maximum by the end of this decade. The region has space to accomodate the two current bulls if needed too (to create more space if required).

Space should absolutely not be an issue at all. Their new facility itself has just under 15,000 sq ft of indoor space that consists of 7 indoor stalls and a large Community room that's roughly 10,000 sq ft and can be split right down the middle making two 5000 sq ft community rooms. Their outdoor space is just as impressive with two large yards the largest being just under two acres the other smaller yard 1 1/2 acres and one small paddock that comes in at about 8000 sq ft. They could easily hold 3 or even 4 different social groupings throughout their facility with potentially even a 5th. There would be no immediate need to send anyone out anytime soon. They could even accommodate 2-4 more calves before space would even be an issue and by the time those calves are even born their two oldest elephants would be pushing their late 50s/early 60s if their lucky.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I guess the best case scenario here is all three older cows integrate well with the new Dublin herd and a cohesive herd is established. Worst case, some of the older cows won’t get along well with the new herd but there’s no reason this shouldn’t be attempted.

There’s no harm in attempting introductions, especially as the new social situations will be very beneficial to the current older cows (especially with the young bulls and future calves too!).

Space also shouldn’t be an issue. Cincy only have two reproductive cows and breeding them at natural intervals will give Cincy four calves maximum by the end of this decade. The region has space to accomodate the two current bulls if needed too (to create more space if required).

It would be wonderful if the two groups would be able to fully integrate. Schottzie, Jati and Mai Thai 100% deserve the opportunity to be a part of a more natural herd setting, and my hope is that this suceeds!

But the sad thing is both Jati and Schottzie are very dominant animals that have clashed with others in the past, and that combination with ANOTHER dominant female (Yasmin/SheRa) may not go as the zoo hopes. If it ends up being that a few of the older cows don't mesh, it may be in their best interest to send those cows elswhere.

Yes Cinci does have the space (an amazing upgrade considering what they have currently) but it comes down whether it is ethical in the long run to have a small herd of aging cows. Mai Thai and Schottzie likely have just over 10 years left in them and Jati could easily have 20 or more. In any scenario of the intros not working that would eventually leave one of the older cows as being housed by herself, which isn't healthy or ideal. Sabu will likely still be rotated to the older girls if they have to be kept separately but the zoo's main prioroty is keeping him with the young bulls and reproductive females I imagine. I really hope that if things don't go as planned, the zoo will reconsider moving plans for the older girls.

But fingers crossed the introduction to the Dublin herd goes smoothly so none of this is a worry! Seeing that the piece of info on Jati being separated from Mai Thai is false really gives me hope that any aggression is either minor or would be stomped out in a larger space/herd setting!

 

[E Maximus]

I personally believe the larger space will negate much aggression as it will give the more submissive members places to hide. Looking at schematics it looks to have several sight barriers as well which is also known to help negate aggression as it removes the submissive cow from the aggressors' line of sight. As for keeping several groups, nothing about it would really be that unhealthy so to speak. Each member would hypothetically be able to see, hear, touch, and smell their other herd members. Allowing each individual to have their own time is also just as important to their welfare. Even zoos with larger herds are known to give their herd members "breaks" and house them either on their own or with one or two others every now and then. Many zoos implement this type of social structure to help keep a more cohesive herd as they can grow tired of the same company which can lead to fracturing and stress within the group. This also gives other less submissive elephants a chance to be themselves without having to worry about who may or may not be around them.

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

I personally believe the larger space will negate much aggression as it will give the more submissive members places to hide. Looking at schematics it looks to have several sight barriers as well which is also known to help negate aggression as it removes the submissive cow from the aggressors' line of sight. As for keeping several groups, nothing about it would really be that unhealthy so to speak. Each member would hypothetically be able to see, hear, touch, and smell their other herd members. Allowing each individual to have their own time is also just as important to their welfare. Even zoos with larger herds are known to give their herd members "breaks" and house them either on their own or with one or two others every now and then. Many zoos implement this type of social structure to help keep a more cohesive herd structure as they can grow tired of the same company which can lead to fracturing and stress within the group. This also gives other less submissive elephants a chance to be themselves without having to worry about who may or may not be around them.

That's a true statement and I absolutely wouldn't doubt that Cincinnati would do the same to their new and old herd. The sight barriers is what most, if not all zoos use when introducing new elephants (or any animal really) to their new companion(s).

 

[Great Argus]

The sight barriers is what most, if not all zoos use when introducing new elephants (or any animal really) to their new companion(s).

Not quite sure why you're comparing in-exhibit visual barriers to keeping an animal out of sight next door. Given elephant communication and olfactory range, they're gonna know whether there's another elephant nearby, whether visual barrier or no visual barrier. Having places to be out of sight brings the "out of sight, out of mind" mindset and allows subordinate animals to avoid more aggression from the dominant ones.
Also sight barriers are not always used for "any animal" introductions- birds are usually howdied in full view in catch cages or through other visible means. If howdy is used, fish also are a visual only. For most non-mammals, visual contact is the primary way potential aggression can be assessed.

 

[ZCChip]

It may come down to ethics and sound business decisions. Does the zoo want to manage a robust breeding herd with the capacity to hold young bulls or run a breeding herd AND an aging, non reproductive cow herd that won’t get along with each other due to emotional reasons.

it’s better to let the cows go to TES and focus on the purpose of the Dublin cows: a vital breeding herd to support the USA elephant population.

Indiana is only 6-8 hour drive from Tennessee. Easy.

 

[Jambo]

It may come down to ethics and sound business decisions. Does the zoo want to manage a robust breeding herd with the capacity to hold young bulls or run a breeding herd AND an aging, non reproductive cow herd that won’t get along with each other due to emotional reasons.

it’s better to let the cows go to TES and focus on the purpose of the Dublin cows: a vital breeding herd to support the USA elephant population.

Indiana is only 6-8 hour drive from Tennessee. Easy.

I think having a 'proper' matriarch though could really help the current Cincy cows. A change in social dynamics could also benefit the current relationships, especially as there'll be more opportunity for interaction with other elephants rather than just with one another in the present situation. Calves are also known to improve herd dynamics, so this will be an important and unique experience for the three older cows.

Even if one (or two) of the cows fail to integrate, there's still enough space to accommodate them separately. But this is worst case scenario!

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Still baffled as to why Cincinnati took the option of shipping the three post-reproductive cows out to The Elephant Sanctuary off of the table.

TES is AZA accredited, over 3,000 acres in size, securely fenced, has multiple roomy barns, the resident elephants are cared for by experienced staff and social opportunities are present for virtually any elephant's needs. (Cow, Bull, African, Asian, Exposed to TB, etc and so forth.)

I know it used to have a staunchly anti-elephants-in-zoos stance, but that's died down significantly since it received AZA accreditation.

I know that there's disease concerns, but the elephants who are confirmed carriers of TB (Along with those with a history of TB exposure), are housed separately from the rest of the herd. Those elephants have their own barn, habitat and dedicated care staff. There's no crossover between the two herds as far as I'm aware.

I know that Carol Buckley is a controversial figure within the elephant caretaker community to say the least, but she hasn't been involved with TES for at least a decade now.

I know that there's recently been some deaths of elephants who were (relatively) recently moved to TES from their longtime zoos, but all of those animals were either geriatric or had known chronic health problems. (And more often than not, both!) Other elephants who have been moved to TES within the same span of time have remained healthy.

So... What gives? None of the possible known concerns are insurmountable.

Cincinnati's three post-reproductive cows all appear to be in decent health and while one could certainly characterize them all as seniors, none are exactly geriatric. All of them could live for another decade, easy. Some even longer that that!

It's not like TES and Cincinnati are clear across the country from one another either, you could knock out a transfer within a single day and that would be taking it slow.

 

[Jambo]

Still baffled as to why Cincinnati took the option of shipping the three post-reproductive cows out to The Elephant Sanctuary off of the table.

TES is AZA accredited, over 3,000 acres in size, securely fenced, has multiple roomy barns, the resident elephants are cared for by experienced staff and social opportunities are present for virtually any elephant's needs. (Cow, Bull, African, Asian, Exposed to TB, etc and so forth.)

I know it used to have a staunchly anti-elephants-in-zoos stance, but that's died down significantly since it received AZA accreditation.

I know that there's disease concerns, but the elephants who are confirmed carriers of TB (Along with those with a history of TB exposure), are housed separately from the rest of the herd. Those elephants have their own barn, habitat and dedicated care staff. There's no crossover between the two herds as far as I'm aware.

I know that Carol Buckley is a controversial figure within the elephant caretaker community to say the least, but she hasn't been involved with TES for at least a decade now.

I know that there's recently been some deaths of elephants who were (relatively) recently moved to TES from their longtime zoos, but all of those animals were either geriatric or had known chronic health problems. (And more often than not, both!) Other elephants who have been moved to TES within the same span of time have remained healthy.

So... What gives? None of the possible known concerns are insurmountable.

Cincinnati's three post-reproductive cows all appear to be in decent health and while one could certainly characterize them all as seniors, none are exactly geriatric. All of them could live for another decade, easy. Some even longer that that!

It's not like TES and Cincinnati are clear across the country from one another either, you could knock out a transfer within a single day and that would be taking it slow.

The reasoning seems clear to me; these cows have the opportunity to live in a better social situation which will benefit them immensely. A properly functioning elephant herd in a newly completed complex presents as the ideal.

Their age also would be a contributing factor as to why they shouldn't be sent. They're not that old, and certainly deserve the chance to integrate with a new herd rather than just sending them off to TES without even giving them the opportunity in the first place.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

The reasoning seems clear to me; these cows have the opportunity to live in a better social situation which will benefit them immensely. A properly functioning elephant herd in a newly completed complex presents as the ideal.

Their age also would be a contributing factor as to why they shouldn't be sent. They're not that old, and certainly deserve the chance to integrate with a new herd rather than just sending them off to TES without even giving them the opportunity in the first place.

Of course they deserve the chance and hopefully the massively improved living conditions will mean that any behavioral and social issues between the older cows will be resolved.

But I don't think Cinci should've scrapped plans to send their girls to TES by any means. If any of the girls have issues with the Dublin herd, sending them to TES would be a better alternative then just keeping them for the sake of keeping them. If they're not a cohesive herd then there's no reason (that we know of) to just eventually force the older cows into solitude/a small unnatural herd. Even if Sabu would rotate they still would be alone most of the time since keeping Sabu with the Dublin girls for breeding/socializing with the younger boys and any future calves would be the priority. They could still smell/see the other herd but that's not the same thing and it would be a shame for Cincinnati to become another Happy situation.

Cinci does have the space 100% and thats absolutely amazing that they CAN keep the cows, but it's a matter of whether they SHOULD. Theres nothing to say that plans to bring in more breeding cows wouldn't happen in the next few years for instance. We know the Dublin boys aren't going anywhere for at least 5ish years at the very earliest, so who knows if more cows would be brought in to breed with THEM later on. Im spitballing here but the point is that the older cows serve no purpose to the SSP, so if they fail to Integrate into the Dublin herd (ESPECIALLY if its only one or two that fail to integrate) then they have no reason to remain in Cincinati that is better than just sending them to an accredited facility that we know has a positive history of caring for older animals.

But again this is all a worst case scenario. The way I see it the older cows have a lot of positives going for them introduction-wise. Personally I'm thinking things will work out and we'll see a cohesive herd by the end of the summer. However it's just not wise to assume that things will work out, there should be a plan B rather than just opting for a separate little herd.

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

Still baffled as to why Cincinnati took the option of shipping the three post-reproductive cows out to The Elephant Sanctuary off of the table.

TES is AZA accredited, over 3,000 acres in size, securely fenced, has multiple roomy barns, the resident elephants are cared for by experienced staff and social opportunities are present for virtually any elephant's needs. (Cow, Bull, African, Asian, Exposed to TB, etc and so forth.)

I know it used to have a staunchly anti-elephants-in-zoos stance, but that's died down significantly since it received AZA accreditation.

I know that there's disease concerns, but the elephants who are confirmed carriers of TB (Along with those with a history of TB exposure), are housed separately from the rest of the herd. Those elephants have their own barn, habitat and dedicated care staff. There's no crossover between the two herds as far as I'm aware.

I know that Carol Buckley is a controversial figure within the elephant caretaker community to say the least, but she hasn't been involved with TES for at least a decade now.

I know that there's recently been some deaths of elephants who were (relatively) recently moved to TES from their longtime zoos, but all of those animals were either geriatric or had known chronic health problems. (And more often than not, both!) Other elephants who have been moved to TES within the same span of time have remained healthy.

So... What gives? None of the possible known concerns are insurmountable.

Cincinnati's three post-reproductive cows all appear to be in decent health and while one could certainly characterize them all as seniors, none are exactly geriatric. All of them could live for another decade, easy. Some even longer that that!

It's not like TES and Cincinnati are clear across the country from one another either, you could knock out a transfer within a single day and that would be taking it slow.

I don't see a point in Schottzie, Mai Thai, and Jati moving anywhere at all with this glorious new exhibit being here now. They are staying because the zoo wants them to be in a more social herd with the new cows and be "aunties" to the young bulls. I think that it was the right decision for them to have the old girls remain in Cincinnati until they die.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I don't see a point in Schottzie, Mai Thai, and Jati moving anywhere at all with this glorious new exhibit being here now. They are staying because the zoo wants them to be in a more social herd with the new cows and be "aunties" to the young bulls. I think that it was the right decision for them to have the old girls remain in Cincinnati until they die.

It makes perfect sense as to why they want the older girls to stay for now. For decades now Cinci has been trying to meet 21st century elephant care standards in an incredibly outdated facility that we've seen has had a direct impact on the social health of these cows. There are multiple improved variables with Elephant Trek, so of course they'd reconsider the move. None of these cows have lived in a natural herd composition for decades and it SHOWS. The zoo has a perfect oppertunity now to not only keep their beloved cows but also give them the chance at being part of a multigenerational herd setting.

What I'm failing to understand about the TES thing is why Cincinati seems so definitive on that being off the table in any scenario (from what it sounds like). It's unlikely to me that all three girls will not Integrate well, which very easily could leave one or two singled out if things don't go as planned. In that case I hope they'd reconsider out of ethical concern for the girls. Its just not sustainable long-term to have say Jati and Schottzie by themselves or even Schottzie and Mai Thai, as in ANY two elephant scenario there will eventually be an elephant living solitary. TES would be a similar scenario, yes, but it would open up a socialization oppertunity in a much different setting plus give more room for Cinci to grow their herd in a more flexible way. What I'm trying to say is basically that in the event that introductions fail, Cincinati should send those cows out rather than just keeping them there. Long term it just doesn't make sense.

That being said, as myself and others have mentioned I don't think introductions will end up being an issue. The zoo has until the SUMMER to get the older girls moved and introduced, which leaves plenty of time to take that introduction process slow. Neither of the two groups have an "established" matriarch either. Yasmin/SheRa has likely stepped up since the move but she for YEARS was living under her own older sister, so in time it wouldn't surprise me if she allowed either Schottzie or even Jati to take the lead. Also, even with Jati's previous aggressive incidents with Mai Thai the zoo feels that its safe to house them together, so either she's backed off or it's nothing serious; which would mean she probably wouldn't resort to aggression when faced with a strong, experienced female like Yasmin. I genuinely think we could see the Matriarchal position fall to any of the more dominant girls.

 

[Hyak_II]

Re: Yasmin willingly stepping down from a matriarchal role: possible, but doubtful.

Yes, she’s always been a subdominant cow, first under her mother Irma and then sister Dina, but considering she is now in her 30’s with a matriline all her own, it’s doubtful she would submit to Schottzie (who would realistically be the one to step up as matriarch. Mai Tai is too placid/submissive, and Jati is socially problematic, which doesn’t bode well for her overtaking a matriarchal position over a mature, natural herd with socially savvy animals).

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

Re: Yasmin willingly stepping down from a matriarchal role: possible, but doubtful.

Yes, she’s always been a subdominant cow, first under her mother Irma and then sister Dina, but considering she is now in her 30’s with a matriline all her own, it’s doubtful she would submit to Schottzie (who would realistically be the one to step up as matriarch. Mai Tai is too placid/submissive, and Jati is socially problematic, which doesn’t bode well for her overtaking a matriarchal position over a mature, natural herd with socially savvy animals).

The herd matriarch would almost certainly be Schottzie as she is the dominant elephant among the older ones.

 

[Great Argus]

The herd matriarch would almost certainly be Schottzie as she is the dominant elephant among the older ones.

There really is not a need for you to give a simple restatement of things right after someone else that is well versed gives their thoughts. You do this frequently and it usually is not adding anything to the discussion.

 

[Jambo]

The herd matriarch would almost certainly be Schottzie as she is the dominant elephant among the older ones.

But Schottzie hasn’t actually been in a ‘proper’ herd situation before, whereas Yasmin has.

You’d argue Yasmin would have far more chance, when you acknowledge a) her experience b) her familial support via her daughter and their respective sons.

These cows will also probably be introduced one at a time to the Dublin individuals, making it far more difficult for any of the current Cincy cows to attempt a challenge.

 

[E Maximus]

I think many of you are forgetting the expense of moving the animals as-well. I don’t believe they have released a figure on the cost of the new exhibit or even the cost of getting the Dublin herd here. But to put it into perspective flying two cows over from the Netherlands cost upwards of 2 million dollars… It honestly doesn’t make sense to move them when they’ve been pushing the multi-generational herd statements so heavily and at the end of the day regardless if most people thinks it’s “unhealthy” for any cows that don’t integrate to be kept in a smaller herd. The public will not be viewing it as a bad thing since they will be in not only a bigger space but also have better social opportunities albeit through a barrier if they fail to integrate but still the opportunities to interact with a more realistic herd structure is obviously the main goal of this expansion. The zoo knows what’s best for their animals anyways and will do what they know is in their best interest at the end of the day.