North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

[ZCChip]

Indian rhino is only supposed to be a temporary species in Phoenix Zoo and after Indu passes, I can see Phoenix starting a new bachelor herd of Asian Elephants.

I am not sure about that as of yet. I know the manager there and there is no mention about it at least to me. But it’s the head hochos that makes the final decisions. I know there was talk about sending the three girls to TES and focus on a bachelor group but that was many years ago and things have changed with the deaths and the rhino.

The issue will be space. One of the girls was aggressive to the other two, so they had to rotate them around in ONE outside area but they all shared the same barn. The off exhibit area is much smaller.

 

[ZCChip]

That's actually my personal idea of what the Bronx should do. Tho, in this, I'm still renovating the backstage space to be more comfortable, modern, and to make rotation a breeze

yep. In the tv show they had to bring in one at a time. I am not sure how they were able to shift Happy if they had to keep the other girl(s) in.

but it’s a very doable facility for bulls with the outdoor areas. Just need to modify the stall area.

 

[Jambo]

yep. In the tv show they had to bring in one at a time. I am not sure how they were able to shift Happy if they had to keep the other girl(s) in.

but it’s a very doable facility for bulls with the outdoor areas. Just need to modify the stall area.

Yeah after seeing the exhibits I would imagine they would be well suited to a small bachelor herd. Considering the space they have within the complex, it would be disappointing if they didn't take advantage of the facilities they currently have.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

yep. In the tv show they had to bring in one at a time. I am not sure how they were able to shift Happy if they had to keep the other girl(s) in.

but it’s a very doable facility for bulls with the outdoor areas. Just need to modify the stall area.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there not a current way to view the elephant exhibit except from a tiny portion of the Asian monorail? This would certianly have to be something updated if they choose to keep bachelors.
If they are able, you can never go wrong with more space when it comes to elephants, ESPECIALLY with the Happy situation dragging down Bronx's elephant care image.

 

[Jambo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there not a current way to view the elephant exhibit except from a tiny portion of the Asian monorail? This would certianly have to be something updated if they choose to keep bachelors.
If they are able, you can never go wrong with more space when it comes to elephants, ESPECIALLY with the Happy situation dragging down Bronx's elephant care image.

Yes, they're only viewable on the monorail.

Would be better for them to be viewable on trail, but this would be difficult unless they elect to construct a walking trail across the river in that monorail area too.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Yes, they're only viewable on the monorail.

Would be better for them to be viewable on trail, but this would be difficult unless they elect to construct a walking trail across the river in that monorail area too.

The Asia Monorail is incredibly unique for sure and its one of my favorite zoo features that I've never seen, but if the zoo ever keeps elephants again then they need to make them viewable for more than 20 seconds.
It wouldn't be a simple feat, but elephants are a "big ticket" animal that visitors would flock to see, and I feel Bronx has it in them to pull off a walking exhibit to the complex.
The only reason that they haven't done that yet imo is obviously because their elephants are just bad publicity for them right now. Its better to keep them out of the public eye for the most part then to deal with an onslaught of "activists" coming to the exhibit every day. I don't think Ive seen a social media post about any of their elephants for years. Both girls are aging, so they know its only a matter of time before both pass away.

 

[ZooElephantMan]

Elephants are a "big ticket" animal that visitors would flock to see, and I feel Bronx has it in them to pull off a walking exhibit to the complex. The only reason that they haven't done that yet imo is obviously because their elephants are just bad publicity for them right now.

Cost is also a factor.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Cost is also a factor.

Bronx wouldn't be the first zoo by any means to invest in an improved elephant complex. The bridge over the river would likely be the most costly thing but not impossible. It would be a multi-year project and certianly costly but it could be done somewhere down the line.
A lot of people have agreed over the years that adding a walking trail around Asia would be a massive benefit to the area. The improved elephant exhibit could easily be the focal point.

 

[tigris115]

Bronx wouldn't be the first zoo by any means to invest in an improved elephant complex. The bridge over the river would likely be the most costly thing but not impossible. It would be a multi-year project and certianly costly but it could be done somewhere down the line.
A lot of people have agreed over the years that adding a walking trail around Asia would be a massive benefit to the area. The improved elephant exhibit could easily be the focal point.

I was just gonna have a platform for drop offs. Monorail's already there and has been renovated to get a few more decades of mileage in 2008 so just use it.

If you want more info, DM me. I'm past the point where I'm being too public about my pet project but if you're interested, I'll let you in on my details

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Re this announcement on the Asian Elephants news thread:

Yes, the individual in question is Johnson!

Regulations.gov

I was genuinely not expecting Columbus to aquire a bull so soon after Sabu's departure!

This could mean that he failed to impregnate the girls, or at least failed to impregnate either Rudy or Sunny and so they want another bull asap, which would be immensely disappointing. But given the animal list from Columbus in the document does not include Frankie and still includes Beco, this transfer was likely years in the works and has been delayed likely due to several factors.

I will say though, out of ALL the bulls in NA, why him? He has more family members than even Phoebe's line, he has so little genetic value and already has passed on his genes to several daughters. Other than being a clearly proven bull there is no value in his transfer to Columbus...

 

[Mr.Ivory]

I think it also has to do with Frankie who without a doubt is benefiting from having Sabu around, Johnson as a mature proven bull can provide the same role as Sabu after he departs to Cincinnati and allow Frankie to learn important social behaviors and for him to socialize with Johnson

 

[E Maximus]

Re this announcement on the Asian Elephants news thread:
I will say though, out of ALL the bulls in NA, why him? He has more family members than even Phoebe's line, he has so little genetic value and already has passed on his genes to several daughters. Other than being a clearly proven bull there is no value in his transfer to Columbus...

I believe the answer is rather simple, he's a proven bull. If Sabu has indeed failed at Columbus their best shot will be a successful natural breeder. Johnson's record speaks for itself; he only needs to breed once/twice with Sunny and Rudy to cement them as breeders for another 20+ years and this is also Pheobe's best chance at a natural pairing.

This could also be a win-win in regards to gender. Johnson's offspring are very heavily male-dominated. Of his 8 (publicly announced) offspring, 7 of them are females. If the import is approved and his trend continues Columbus cements their herd for another 40+ years so long as EEHV doesn't rear its ugly head.

Spoiler: Johnson's Calves

1.0 Onyx (Johnson × Opal) 08.18.2018
0.1 Nellie (Johnson × Natasha) 08.02.2013
0.1 Hannah (Johnson × Lilly) 10.19.2014
0.1 Anna May (Johnson × Opal) 05.04.2015
0.1 Rose (Johnson × Natasha) 02.28.2016
0.1 Luna (Johnson × Lilly) 08.17.2018
0.1 Sunita (Johnson × Natasha) 11.14.2018
0.1 Ikme (Johnson x Lilly) 11.22.2020

 

[Mr.Ivory]

Spoiler: Johnson's Calves

1.0 Onyx (Johnson × Opal) 08.18.2018
0.1 Nellie (Johnson × Natasha) 08.02.2013
0.1 Hannah (Johnson × Lilly) 10.19.2014
0.1 Anna May (Johnson × Opal) 05.04.2015
0.1 Rose (Johnson × Natasha) 02.28.2016
0.1 Luna (Johnson × Lilly) 08.17.2018
0.1 Sunita (Johnson × Natasha) 11.14.2018
0.1 Ikme (Johnson x Lilly) 11.22.2020

And this not counting the three calves born in 2021 who never went announced

 

[15399]

This could mean that he failed to impregnate the girls, or at least failed to impregnate either Rudy or Sunny and so they want another bull asap, which would be immensely disappointing. But given the animal list from Columbus in the document does not include Frankie and still includes Beco, this transfer was likely years in the works and has been delayed likely due to several factors.

Any import/export takes time. It'd be irresponsible, and likely inaccurate, to make any assumptions about if the elephants are currently pregnant or not based on this new information.

I will say though, out of ALL the bulls in NA, why him? He has more family members than even Phoebe's line, he has so little genetic value and already has passed on his genes to several daughters. Other than being a clearly proven bull there is no value in his transfer to Columbus...

To say there is no value is very hyperbolic. While yes, he has a lot of relatives in the population, many of these relatives are isolated to African Lion Safari, so he does bring in genes that are underrepresented to the United States part of the population. As with any other transfers, there are also so many factors that the public simply isn't aware of, for instance there could be a reason that ALS needs to transfer out Johnson, and it certainly helps that this transfer is over a relatively short distance.

 

[Kudu21]

@NOVAElephantEnthusiast has a very important point. We are not working in a world of ideals with populations of animals in human care. Sometimes just getting offspring on the ground is more important than waiting for a more "valuable" pairing to be available, especially in taxa susceptible to early reproductive senescence. Getting offspring on the ground buys populations more time and more flexibility in the future. With many populations in human care, we are not exactly in a position to be too picky if we want to have the numbers to support the population long-term. I'd rather get another round of calves out of my aging herd of, say, gemsbok now, even if the male is related to some of the females, and know that I have a growing herd with a rebalanced age ratio than wait around trying to find the "perfect" bull and risk losing numbers/genetics in my herd that I cannot recover. I understand that there is more frustration involved with elephants, in particular, than in the hoofstock I work with due to the politics that have road-blocked moves of more genetically valuable individuals, but the premise is still there.

 

[PSO]

@Kudu21 is right. We tried getting "perfect genetics" decade or 2 ago but the population started dropping. Putting calves on the ground became a priority 5 or so years ago and success has increased greatly

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

To say there is no value is very hyperbolic. While yes, he has a lot of relatives in the population, many of these relatives are isolated to African Lion Safari, so he does bring in genes that are underrepresented to the United States part of the population.

Keep in mind Johnson has a brother with offspring in the country (and more on the way), a sister with an entire matriline and another brother who likely will sire offspring as well. To say he brings much to the population isn't exactly accurate either. While of course all of his offspring are currently isolated at ALS, that's not to say this will always be the case, especially as his daughters approach breeding age.

for instance there could be a reason that ALS needs to transfer out Johnson

I think its all but been announced publicly that ALS needs a new breeding bull. They are in an ideal situation right now to bring in a new bull and get their youngest females breeding, and with Johnson still being present this just isn't feasible.

In everything other than genes, Johnson is a perfect bull for Columbus, but we know the consequences of allowing a singular bull to breed in excess. Especially when there are several other bulls in the country sitting completely underutilized. Of course we can't know all the details, but I just worry Columbus is making a move that may come back to bite them down the line. Getting calves on the ground is the priority, but where will we be in a few decades when half the animals in NA are related to each other?

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

I will say though, out of ALL the bulls in NA, why him?

He's a proven breeding bull with an excellent track record.

He's got a plethora of calf experience and Frankie needs a father-figure.

&

ALS haven't exactly been... quiet about their desire to import a new bull for their herd. They've been murmuring about wanting one from Europe for years now. Covid doubtlessly delayed those plans, but this transfer has all the looks about it of being their attempt to get back on track.

While I agree that Johnson isn't the most amazing choice genetically, Columbus can't really afford to be picky right now IMHO. They need a bull elephant, ALS has a bull elephant in need of a new placement. Ergo, Johnson is heading stateside.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

In everything other than genes, Johnson is a perfect bull for Columbus, but we know the consequences of allowing a singular bull to breed in excess.

Popular sire effect (AKA: Popular stud syndrome) is a prevalent problem facing the dog world right now, some breeds are so inbred that there's little hope of them continuing to be viable without bringing new genetics. Which, barring notable few breeds, is viewed as blasphemy to merely suggest.

The zoo world would do well to avoid that situation at all costs.

Especially when there are several other bulls in the country sitting completely underutilized.

And how many of those bulls are proven natural breeders like Johnson is?

North America suffers from a shortage of bull elephants who know how to breed.

Even considering the worry of popular sire effect, I can't say that I blame Columbus for jumping at the chance to import Johnson from Canada. There's no doubting his skill with the ladies! Lol.

A proven breeder is a sure thing (On the bull end of things anyway), so why take the risk on a more genetically valuable, but unproven bull? Columbus' cows need to get pregnant right now in order to salvage potential breeding careers for them. Columbus can ill-afford to bring in a youngster and just cross their fingers and hope that he'll know what he's doing.

Of course we can't know all the details, but I just worry Columbus is making a move that may come back to bite them down the line. Getting calves on the ground is the priority, but where will we be in a few decades when half the animals in NA are related to each other?

If the situation ever degrades to that state, I suppose we'll have to take a page out of the dog breeders' book and measure the COI (Coefficient of inbreeding) between individual pairings, ultimately aiming to produce calves that have the lowest COI possible as available within the population.

 

[E Maximus]

Keep in mind Johnson has a brother with offspring in the country (and more on the way), a sister with an entire matriline and another brother who likely will sire offspring as well.

I would have to disagree. Yes, Johnson has 4 siblings in the US but 3 of those are half-siblings with one surviving offspring and one is a full sibling who also only has one surviving offspring.

Spoiler: 1.0 Johnson (Calvin × Kitty) 04.29.2001 Siblings and their Offspring

- 1.0 Samson (Calvin × Kitty) 05.04.1998
- 1.0 Bowie (Samson × Bluebonnet) 08.05.2013

- 1.0 Albert (Calvin × Lilly) 11.29.1998

- 1.0 Kandula (Calvin × Shanthi) 11.25.2001

- 0.1 Emily (Rex × Kitty) 04.23.2006
- 0.1 Gigi (George × Emily) 02.24.2015 (Sire could be wrong)

Even if all 4 of them were to have calves the closest relation between any of them would be 2nd cousins and that's through Samson only. In just two to three generations inbreeding wouldn't even be a worry unless we saw a 1980s white tiger fiasco take place which we obviously will now. That being said If each of his siblings was just as prolific then I could see your point but they're not.