Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Oh I was under the impression that they'd been introduced! Nevermind on that then lol
North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation
- Thread starter IndianRhino
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Polar bear fan
Well-Known Member
I was told recently that the introductions were all behind barriers, tho that information may not be correct.
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
You were told by who?
Polar bear fan
Well-Known Member
A KCZ staff member.
Out of the options I can imagine:
SDZSP: Ndulamitsi, Umngani, Swazi, Khosi, Phakamile, Qinisa - Through AI or Musi
Pittsburgh Zoo: Victoria, Angelina, Zuri
DAK: Donna, Vasha, Kianga and Luna
Louisville Zoo: Mikki
Dallas Zoo: Zola
I don't believe Pittsburgh is one of them because they aren't part of AZA and SSP.
DAK and Dallas usually don't announce pregnancies.
SDZSP: Ndulamitsi, Umngani, Swazi, Khosi, Phakamile, Qinisa - Through AI or Musi
Pittsburgh Zoo: Victoria, Angelina, Zuri
DAK: Donna, Vasha, Kianga and Luna
Louisville Zoo: Mikki
Dallas Zoo: Zola
I don't believe Pittsburgh is one of them because they aren't part of AZA and SSP.
DAK and Dallas usually don't announce pregnancies.
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
I very highly doubt that Mikki is pregnant nor can I see her ever getting pregnant again.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I don't think we can exclude Dallas or DAK. Just because the facilities don't make specific pregnancy announcements doesn't mean that they wouldn't be in contact with other SSP locations about pregnancies. Since Sedgwick didn't namedrop all the facilities I'd say it's just as likely as the others that they could be talking about them.
And truthfully both would make sense. Since Dallas is clearly actively breeding and so is Animal Kingdom.
I believe the zoo's latest public stance regarding Mikki was that they had no interest in breeding her again due to her age. Obviously this could've been a publicity statement but she is pushing her reproductive limits for sure.
Sedgwick mentioned they sent semen to Hogle in 2023 on their blog recap of 2023, so I wouldn’t rule out the Hogle girls via AI.
2023 in Review at the Zoo – Sedgwick County Zoo
Yes, i'm just saying that we gonna find out any pregnancy from Dallas or DAK after the birth. It's official the intention of breed Zola, Kianga and Luna, they were set to witness the last births in order to be prepared.
I have the impression that they already announced that Mikki won't be AI again,
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Following news of Shaunzi's death in LA, I really am now beginning to seriously wonder what on earth plans are for the three Asian holding facilities with valuable bulls and post-reproductive cows (Tulsa, LA and Miami).
As far as I ascertain, each facility has more than adequate space for a breeding herd and/or, as in Tulsa's case, has calf specific barn aspects. This and each possessing an incredibly valuable bull points to plans for breeding, yet there's been no signs of potential transfers, discussion around getting cows in the near future, etc at ANY of the three as far as I can tell.
Now given that there's only a singular cow remaining at Miami and LA respectively, I can't help but think that maybe sending them to TES may be likely? Ongard is at the age where he should be beginning to reach maturity by now, so there's not really a reason to keep him from cows. Billy should've been with cows long ago, but with the three older girls there that evidently presented a challenge. With ONLY Tina left I'd be very disappointed if they opted to just let her die before receiving younger females.
I think Tulsa's space would allow for their older girls and reproductive cows to both continue to be held separately though.
As far as I ascertain, each facility has more than adequate space for a breeding herd and/or, as in Tulsa's case, has calf specific barn aspects. This and each possessing an incredibly valuable bull points to plans for breeding, yet there's been no signs of potential transfers, discussion around getting cows in the near future, etc at ANY of the three as far as I can tell.
Now given that there's only a singular cow remaining at Miami and LA respectively, I can't help but think that maybe sending them to TES may be likely? Ongard is at the age where he should be beginning to reach maturity by now, so there's not really a reason to keep him from cows. Billy should've been with cows long ago, but with the three older girls there that evidently presented a challenge. With ONLY Tina left I'd be very disappointed if they opted to just let her die before receiving younger females.
I think Tulsa's space would allow for their older girls and reproductive cows to both continue to be held separately though.
With Miami, at this point I'd imagine Ongard may in fact be a strong candidate to transfer to another facility for breeding. Now that Dahlip has passed, there's really no need for him to remain at Miami anymore and I unfortunately don't see Miami acquiring new cows in the meantime. The initial plan was for cows to be acquired for Ongard following Dahlip and Nellie's deaths, but when you consider Nellie still could have more than a decade ahead of her it's probably best Miami don't go that route.
On the other hand, I can definitely see a situation where LA sends Tina to a sanctuary and acquires a small female herd to potentially breed with Billy. Acquiring females from overseas would obviously be the best choice, there's not really any available females from within the region besides the ones at Houston (if they decide to split their herd), or ALS.
I think at this point the best thing to do is be patient, and trust that Los Angeles and Miami are acting in good faith to make the best decisions possible for both their individual elephants and the population. Obviously, decisions have to constantly be made in determining what is or isn't the best course of action, and for Los Angeles the decision now that they only have one cow will likely be a different conversation than when they had two or three. However, none of us know the full medical or behavioral histories of these individuals, or what the wants and needs of different facilities may be, and therefore it is premature to be making a judgement as to what the absolute best decision might be.
Could the veterinarians, elephant keepers, and curators, at Los Angeles, in conversation with the Asian Elephant SSP management team, decide sending Tina to TES and bringing in new cows is the best option? Sure, certainly a reasonable possibility and if so I'd respect that. However, I would just as easily respect it if Los Angeles considers Tina's best interests and decides it'd be irresponsible to send a 58-year old elephant to a facility on the other side of the country and that it is best to let Tina live out her life in Los Angeles. Without knowing Tina's medical history, making the judgement call as to whether a move to TES is best for her individually is impossible. Furthermore, it is possible, given what Los Angeles' team knows about Tina's medical and behavioral histories, that transferring out Tina would not be necessary in order to bring in new cows, certainly another reasonable possibility I'd respect. Lastly, I have no clue whether Los Angeles Zoo has any desire to even breed elephants or not. While from a genetics standpoint breeding Billy would be ideal, none of us know his medical and behavioral histories and whether or not placing Billy in a breeding situation would be in Billy's best interest. It's possible, when considering the big picture, that it is decided placing Billy in a breeding herd is not the best course of action, or that moving Billy into a different zoo's breeding herd, while reserving Los Angeles' exhibit for a bachelor herd or geriatric females, is the course of action that's best to take.
At the end of the day, anything with zoo animals, especially zoo animals that get a lot of media attention such as elephants, are complex decisions with a lot of variables involved, and sometimes I think it is best to just trust the experts are making decisions in good faith and wait until decisions are announced to discuss them.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
With all due respect, this is a speculation thread, and discussing potential moves/opinions of them is what it is for, just as much as it is for discussing news. Half this thread wouldn't exist without that aspect and, respectfully, there is nothing wrong with my above comment?
Nothing I have said is dragging any of the zoos mentioned, nor have I said that I believe I know better than any of them. I do not pretend to be an expert on any of these facilities or these animals, but I am going on what I and the public knows. My goal is to discuss with others on their thoughts, not hound on the facilities for choices.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I suppose Ongard is on the younger side still, and it may be a few years yet before he'd be able to take on a role as a breeding bull. A transfer to a facility where he'd once more have an older bull as a mentor certianly wouldn't hurt him, but he did have a few years with Dahlip so he has that going for him. I'm not overly familiar on Miami's exhibit design, would it be possible to bring in a few cows while still holding Nellie separately?
There's also no technical huge rush imo to push Ongard into a breeding situation. He's valuable, yes, but still young and safely has a several more years before he would be at prime breeding age. I believe getting him with cows sooner rather than later would be preferable, but whether Nellie will still be alive in 6-7 years time is impossible to say, so it's very probable the situation could change after she passes.
I hadn't realized Tina is 58, so sending her to TES at such an advanced age may very well not be something the zoo would want to risk her health with. I do believe though, given that LA has lost two of their old girls a year apart from each other, Tina likely doesn't have many years left. And from what I know of LA's complex they could potentially hold her AND new elephants, or they could wait until she passes easily. As of last year, LA's statement on Billy breeding is that he simply didn't have potential mates at the zoo because the girls were post-reproductive, but they did emphasize his genetic importance, so imo it feels very likely they'll be looking to accept new cows after Tina passes.
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Miami doesn't have the space to bring in new cows unless they choose to house Nellie with Ongard, so this probably wouldn't be feasible long term.
With a lot of ageing bulls at the moment, I'm confident the position of breeding bull will open up at many facilities in the coming years. Ongard will certainly be one of the bulls considered, and in the meantime I'm hopeful he'll still be able to contribute via AI.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
In that case, does Miami even have space for a breeding herd if they'd choose to bring in cows after Nellie? Or would it perhaps be better suited to hold a small number of bachelors?
Either way I really hope we see Ongard in a breeding situation within the next decade. He's simply far too valuable to not breed, and after all the REASON he was imported was for fresh genetics. I hope he is able to sire calves beforehand via AI as well!
They do have a fair amount of space for a breeding herd imo, but I'm not sure how much space they have bts.
Yazziel
Well-Known Member
2 yards (less than an acre each) and a barn (that doesn’t look to big). I wouldn’t call that enough space for a breeding herd. Compared to other exhibits with breeding herds.
If I recall correctly, their barn has 4 stalls and an ERD. So the most they could house theoretically is 4 elephants to have space to separate each should it be needed. This is to enough space to house each elephant short term should severe weather(hurricanes specifically) hit as they can’t be on exhibit during this time due to their safety. Unless they expand their barn space I don’t really see them having the capacity to house a breeding herd. The most I could see Miami with is a male and two females, however should they have female calves they would be at capacity and at some point need to expand or move one of the females and their offspring out.
With Miami, also have to consider what is their long term plan with African elephants. They have 2 non-reproductive cows in another exhibit. They are not “young” but I don’t recall their ages. Unfortunately the exhibits are not that close to merge without some other reconfiguration of the zoo. Will be interesting to see what they do Mike the less.