North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

Yassa said:
The most likely reason why Zola isn‘t getting pregnancy is that Tendaji is not mating her properly. He is still pretty young and she may not be cooperative enough for his not yet perfect skills. Or he is not dominant enough. Or he is not sexually interested in her. I have no inside knowledge, but from experience, these are the most likely scenarios, and bringing in a mature bull would fix them.
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No Tendaji wasn’t the issue. It was Zola. She wasn’t letting Tendaji breed with her. But I think since than that’s changed.
 
Regarding Dallas Tendaji is breeding them it’s Zola not wanting to be bred that was the issue. As for Mabu being moved to Dallas it’s honestly not a bad idea. All this “over representation” talk is non-sense. A bull is not over represented until his calves start reproducing and none of Mabus have. It’s the same with Jackson. He had one successful offspring who is breeding well and it’s with different wild born females. In two generations those genes could be so diluted that it wouldn’t even be an issue. Until cows sired by Jackson/Calle or Mabu are actively reproducing them I say we keep using them especially if they throw more cows than bulls. It’s literally what bulls like Mabu and Callee/Jackson are vital for because at the end of the day they’re a fail safe which is what zoos like Dallas needs just like what we witnessed at Fresno and San Diego. As for Musi it’s a very real possibility he was moved because the females were confirmed pregnant or recently bred them. They cycle about every 3ish months so gives the zoo time to confirm pregnancy and work with the SSP for the next transfer in which if Musi failed will probably be Callee or Mabu.
 
E Maximus said:
All this “over representation” talk is non-sense. A bull is not over represented until his calves start reproducing and none of Mabus have. It’s the same with Jackson. He had one successful offspring who is breeding well and it’s with different wild born females. In two generations those genes could be so diluted that it wouldn’t even be an issue. Until cows sired by Jackson/Calle or Mabu are actively reproducing them I say we keep using them especially if they throw more cows than bulls. It’s literally what bulls like Mabu and Callee/Jackson are vital for because at the end of the day they’re a fail safe which is what zoos like Dallas needs just like what we witnessed at Fresno and San Diego
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Indeed, we also are facing a reality where there will be a need for more elephants as exhibit animals, so even if any hypothetical bulls sired by Mabu or Jackson/Callee aren't genetically valuable, they could still serve as valuable exhibit animals to replace aging females. There are a number of zoos, such as Cheyenne Mountain, Jacksonville, Roger Williams, Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Atlanta, which don't have any elephants under the age of 30. While I don't want to speculate about any individual zoos and their future with elephants, it's likely some, if not all, of these zoos will be looking for new exhibit animals within a decade. Producing some extra calves, even if they won't ever be needed for breeding, can't hurt when the population has room to grow.
 
It depends on how you look at things. The SSP's goal is to manage a genetically healthy captive population. There is certianly a need for bulls like Mabu and Callee to still be considered in urgent situations like Fresno or Sedgwick, but when there are multiple proven bulls who have very few offspring, those bulls should receive breeding reccomendation priority. Aside from health issues that aren't disclosed, there's no reason for these bulls to not rotate facilities like Callee and Mabu have been doing recently.
The value of these underrepresented bulls should be utilized while it can be, especially now that Jackson and Mabu's offspring are hitting breeding age themselves, and we should begin to see those individuals breeding.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
It depends on how you look at things. The SSP's goal is to manage a genetically healthy captive population. There is certianly a need for bulls like Mabu and Callee to still be considered in urgent situations like Fresno or Sedgwick, but when there are multiple proven bulls who have very few offspring, those bulls should receive breeding reccomendation priority. Aside from health issues that aren't disclosed, there's no reason for these bulls to not rotate facilities like Callee and Mabu have been doing recently.
The value of these underrepresented bulls should be utilized while it can be, especially now that Jackson and Mabu's offspring are hitting breeding age themselves, and we should begin to see those individuals breeding.
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Yes this is true, however you’re asking the SSP/facilities to spends hundred of thousands of dollars to move bulls across the country. Mabu and Callee have all moved within maybe a max of 12 hours of each facility with Mabu traveling in a circle basically between facilities. It’s about logistics. It also comes down to recommendations. The SSP continues to recommend these pairings not only because of ease, but because they’re good for the gene pool as-well. In time we will have more natural breeders but for now we need to sit back and enjoy that the population is growing exponentially and hope it continues to for the foreseeable future.
 
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Honestly, the best solution for NA is to make unrepresented bulls have more calves, bulls that have been proven in natural mating like Maclean, Sdudla, and Tendaji should be used to the fullest extent there is no reason for Maclean to leave DAK as of now, Tendaji would benefit from leaving Dallas and heading to San Deigo and Sdudla could be moved to Omaha though at 10 they be at capacity, while bulls like Bulwagi, Ali and now Titan that are proven through AI should have the opportunity to have calves through that method though it is much more difficult to get a pregnancy through AI. Even bulls from the Africam Safari in Puebla houses three bulls Grande, Mediano and Chico one of them could move to the US as well as bringing in Tutume and Jeannot from Canada to the US as well.

Another alternative is to go the NA Asian elephant population route instead of importing mother-daughter pairings NA could focus on bringing surplus bulls from Europe and sending sons sired by Jackson and Mabu to Europe. Several bulls could be imported to NA like Tuluba, Martin, Noah, and Janu, and in return, NA could send Tsavo, Ingadze, and Macembe to Europe.
 
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Regarding ABQ's breeding program, has Albert been kept seperate from Rozie for the most part or has he simply not succeeded in getting her pregnant for the past decade or so? He sired Daizy naturally (I believe) back in 2009, but since then nothing until potentially this upcoming calf. Was this a case of he and Samson rotating being with Rozie and Samson simply won out or is Albert just an inconsistent breeder.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Regarding ABQ's breeding program, has Albert been kept seperate from Rozie for the most part or has he simply not succeeded in getting her pregnant for the past decade or so? He sired Daizy naturally (I believe) back in 2009, but since then nothing until potentially this upcoming calf. Was this a case of he and Samson rotating being with Rozie and Samson simply won out or is Albert just an inconsistent breeder.
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Both males were in with her if I can recall correctly, although I don't think they were ever in together (at least going into their later years together as mature bulls).

When Daizy was born they had to conduct a paternity test to determine the father. That implies both males were in with Rozie together, which makes sense considering both bulls were only young at the time of Daizy's conception and would therefore have been able to cohabite with her on occasions together.

Obviously as they grew older, I'd imagine this would have changed and I'm not sure whether keepers selected the bull when Rozie cycles or given both a chance.
 
I'm just curious on Albert's breeding abilities. Obviously with him having TB right now hes not around the other elephants, but if he's not super skilled at breeding then another, more well-proven bull should be considered going forward. Rozie could easily have two-three more calves in attempts to rebuild her matriline. If Albert doesn't clear TB either, then they'll definitely need a new bull (hes been testing positive for nearly a year now).
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I'm just curious on Albert's breeding abilities. Obviously with him having TB right now hes not around the other elephants, but if he's not super skilled at breeding then another, more well-proven bull should be considered going forward. Rozie could easily have two-three more calves in attempts to rebuild her matriline. If Albert doesn't clear TB either, then they'll definitely need a new bull (hes been testing positive for nearly a year now).
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Albert did sire Daizy (2009-2015) with Rozie, though I don't recall if it was through natural breeding or AI.
 
Nile Hippo Expert said:
Albert did sire Daizy (2009-2015) with Rozie, though I don't recall if it was through natural breeding or AI.
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One website lists her and her siblings as all AI, but I couldn't find anything from the zoo themselves stating that (and zoos typically say when calves are AI) so I'm assuming it was an error and Daizy was sired naturally.
Albert may have been given the oppertunity to breed with Rozie as Samson was, but either he didn't show interest or Samson won out.

Either way, with Albert's TB seemingly not going anywhere its a real potential that he may not be able to breed again. It might be a good choice for ABQ to bring in another bull. Johnson comes to mind instantly for example.
 
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