Johnson though is going to Columbus I thought?
North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation
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Johnson though is going to Columbus I thought?
He is, although there has been some speculation that his stay might not be for long with Raja also scheduled to arrive sometime in 2025.
He will be going to Columbus though.
See that doesn’t make any sense than why Johnson would go to ABQ BioPark if he’s going to Columbus currently. Couldn’t Denver transfer out Bodhi for example to ABQ BioPark so Denver could have more space therefore? I feel like that would be the more better and realistic move honestly.
Doesn’t TESS have a tuberculosis positive herd? I feel like that would be the best place honestly he could go currently if ABQ BioPark can’t let him breed Rosanna anymore
Columbus will potentially be holding three bulls (assuming Hank isn't transferred), so that's where that speculation comes into play. Once Johnson is in the US, it'll be far easier to move him between US zoos if required.
Why would Albert be transferred out of Albuquerque just because he has an Active TB diagnosis? Two of their other elephants Irene and Alice have both tested positive for the bacteria before and survived and it’s believed Albert will do the same. The notion he wouldn’t be able to breed Rozie again is also wrong. The infamous Packy, as well as bulls Tusko and Rama as well as the female Chendra at Oregon Bodhi tested positive for TB at one point and were treated and returned back to their herds. From my experience active infections can last 12-18 months before returning to a latent phase. So Albert still being positive almost a year in is no shock whatsoever. Like with most things we just need to be patient and wait it out, especially since Rozie won’t be breeding again for at-least 2-3 years.
Now if after her birth a DNA test is done and it’s determined Albert is not the father, then yes a move out of Albuquerque should definitely be on the table, and a bull swap with Denver would be best IMO as they have a plethora of decent candidates especially with Bodhi and even Duncan should this be 2-3 years away assuming Rozie’s calf is healthy and survives. I’d even argue Duncan to be a priority right up there with Bodhi due to his wild born father as-well.
Now if after her birth a DNA test is done and it’s determined Albert is not the father, then yes a move out of Albuquerque should definitely be on the table, and a bull swap with Denver would be best IMO as they have a plethora of decent candidates especially with Bodhi and even Duncan should this be 2-3 years away assuming Rozie’s calf is healthy and survives. I’d even argue Duncan to be a priority right up there with Bodhi due to his wild born father as-well.
Frankie_number_1_fan
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Johnson does indeed appear to be going to Columbus, but with Raja also appearing to be transferred there soon it leaves an interesting question of if that is still happening.
Columbus cannot hold three bulls long-term. They are down to two outdoor yards now (one of which is absoloutly tiny) and do not have enough behind the scenes space to house four social groups (which would be nessecary during musths and intros). If they do truthfully intend to receive both bulls, then Hank will undoubtedly have to be sent elswhere.
Johnson came to mind as a good option down the line for Rozie due to not only his obvious skill but also his tendency to throw female calves. Hes probably not the most feasible currently due to his in-limbo move to Columbus, but hes just a thought.
Im also not sure placing completely unproven bulls with an extremely valuable female would be a great move. ABQ cannot afford to waste time for Duncan or Bodhi to figure things out, as they very well may have to do. If they will replace Albert, a proven bull would be the smartest route.
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We don’t get proven bulls by not allowing them the chance to breed, and bulls half his age and size(Bowie at OKC) have got it done first try. Bodhi would have no problem with an experienced female given his personality and size. Regarding Columbus though, the Johnson move was in the works back when beco was still alive but COVID-19 delayed it. And as someone privy to the knowledge of recommendations for transfers there wasn’t one for Beco or Hank back then meaning Columbus had every intention of housing 3 “adult” bulls even with their pending NA expansion. Honestly in my opinion they have ample space to house Johnson, Hank and Raja especially when you consider many zoos still keep their breeding bull with the females even when he’s in musth, using their behavioral queues to determine if isolation is necessary. With 8ish stalls a large community center and two outdoor yards, that’s more than enough space to house 3-4 social groupings if needed, I mean zoos with less space/management options have housed more than what Columbus has listed their capacity on their import permit.
Frankie_number_1_fan
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I was informed by elephant care staff at Columbus that the facility can hold at maximum 10 elephants. With Johnson and Raja both arriving, that would put them at 8. Even adding two calves into the equation would put them at capacity and leaves them absoloutly zero room to grow unless they expand the complex.
Johnson's initial moving plans also came at a time before the 3rd outdoor yard was demolished or even planned to be demolished (I was given updates on the plans every so often, and they have changed often. The aviary was not initially in phase one, and only became part of it relatively close to construction). There hasn't been any changes to the old rhino yard, and with three construction projects ongoing at the zoo I am doubtful that is a priority.
Columbus holding multiple bulls makes sense (both from a breeding standpoint and a socialization standpoint when Connie is considered), but there is zero reason to have three bulls when the ultimate goal is to grow a breeding herd (which Hank cannot add to naturally), and Columbus' space is limited anyway.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Of course not, but of any facility that absoloutly cannot afford the risk of bringing in a young, unproven bull its ABQ. Rozie is one of, if not the most valuable cows in NA, and with her limited breeding window, she needs a bull that is "guaranteed" to get the job done. Duncan and Bodhi would be great choices to go to the facility later on for sure, but unproven bulls are better for situations where they have more time to get the hang of breeding, which ABQ really doesn't have. OKC had a proven bull already for Asha, and their other breeding female JUST hit breeding age, so they had years to spare of Bowie/Kandula wasn't showing the correct behavior right away. Bowie clearly did, but this isn't a guarantee for every young bull.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
It really depends on the individual, but commonly, bulls that are raised in herds of multiple females and witness natural breeding/spend time with a "mentor" bull are considered to have the best chances of showing natural breeding behavior.
The instinct to mate isn't something that needs to be learned, but sometimes bulls who grow up with, say, just their mothers or never interact with a mature bull just don't know what to do and/or behave poorly around females.
As a general rule, Asian elephants tend NOT to have much for issues with breeding naturally as opposed to African elephants, even without the best social upbringings. Of course this is a blanket statement, as there are absolutely Asian bulls that are behavioural non breeders, but on the whole, it’s much less of an issue with the species than for Africans. Asians also tend to start breeding earlier successfully on the whole as well.
Regardless though, to answer your question, the ideal set up to ensure success for an elephant bull, both socially and for breeding naturally, is growing up in a multigenerational herd, with multiple different females of multiple different ages, including same age and younger herd mates. Ideally they would also have access to similar age male relatives, and a significantly older proven breeding bull as well.
Socially, it’s of a benefit to leave them in for herd births, and not separate them out from the matriarchal group at too young an age, especially if there’s not a cohesive bachelor herd for them to ease into at the same facility.
https://fb.watch/qQhVh-sgQY/?mibextid=cr9u03
According to the San Diego Zoo Swazi the parks matriarch, was the reason why Vus Musi left the San Diego Zoo Safari Park.
According to the San Diego Zoo Swazi the parks matriarch, was the reason why Vus Musi left the San Diego Zoo Safari Park.
In addition to what Hyak_II said and a point that‘s often overlooked, bull calves need other calves - ideally of both sexes and different ages- to develop normal sexual behavoir. Because bull calves start ‚play mounting‘ their siblings at a pretty young age, and when they whitness mating behavoir among the adults, they will copy it and ‚practice‘ with their siblings. This is only possible when other calves are present. It is hard (or rather impossible) to say what is more important for a young bull - growing up with an adult bull in the herd as role model, interacting with him, or watching natural breeding behavoir between the adults, or practicing for the future by play mounting with other calves. In the ideal social environment, bull calves have it all, and zoos should strive to provide it all.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Given the rising amounts of Asian Elephant pregnancy announcements, are there any cows that potentially have a good chance of being pregnant that just haven't been announced? Been a bit since I've heard some predictions in this department 
My current bets are on Columbus and Houston personally. Sunny has been confirmed to have mated with Sabu, and now she and Rudy are practically glued to Sabu's side. Thats obviously no confirmation, but incredibly promising given that they've been with him for over a year now. Phoebe isn't showing as much social interest, but she's a confident, experienced cow who shouldn't have any issues breeding naturally so I'm fairly confident.
As for Houston, the breeding interval for Shanti is coming around again, so we very well may see a calf from her soon.
My current bets are on Columbus and Houston personally. Sunny has been confirmed to have mated with Sabu, and now she and Rudy are practically glued to Sabu's side. Thats obviously no confirmation, but incredibly promising given that they've been with him for over a year now. Phoebe isn't showing as much social interest, but she's a confident, experienced cow who shouldn't have any issues breeding naturally so I'm fairly confident.
As for Houston, the breeding interval for Shanti is coming around again, so we very well may see a calf from her soon.
Alongside those you have mentioned, these are the other possibilities imo:Given the rising amounts of Asian Elephant pregnancy announcements, are there any cows that potentially have a good chance of being pregnant that just haven't been announced? Been a bit since I've heard some predictions in this department
My current bets are on Columbus and Houston personally. Sunny has been confirmed to have mated with Sabu, and now she and Rudy are practically glued to Sabu's side. Thats obviously no confirmation, but incredibly promising given that they've been with him for over a year now. Phoebe isn't showing as much social interest, but she's a confident, experienced cow who shouldn't have any issues breeding naturally so I'm fairly confident.
As for Houston, the breeding interval for Shanti is coming around again, so we very well may see a calf from her soon.
Smithsonian's new girls from Europe should also hopefully be pregnant. Both have been introduced to Spike.
Maliha at Saint Louis may also be a possibility too; with her younger sister, Jade being AI'd recently.
Bluebonnet also last gave birth almost two and a half years ago now, so could theoretically be in the early stages of pregnancy again.
Predictions from me would be: Shanti at Houston,
Mali at Syracuse, the Columbus girls, maybe Tess at Houston especially given that Nelson seems to have been moved to the bachelor herd so Teddy would be next. Bluebonnet and Belle are also on my list of predictions because Fort Worth did say they wanted to have 2-3 year birth intervals.
I can however say the NZP girls are not pregnant.
Mali at Syracuse, the Columbus girls, maybe Tess at Houston especially given that Nelson seems to have been moved to the bachelor herd so Teddy would be next. Bluebonnet and Belle are also on my list of predictions because Fort Worth did say they wanted to have 2-3 year birth intervals.
I can however say the NZP girls are not pregnant.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Im surprised to hear that Nelson is already in the bachelor group! He's not even four yet iirc.
It definitely would make sense for potentially all of Houston's reproductive females to be expecting currently, given that the last birth at the facility is going on three years ago.
It is super disappointing that none of National's girls are pregnant though. I never heard, is Spike actively breeding them?
It definitely would make sense for potentially all of Houston's reproductive females to be expecting currently, given that the last birth at the facility is going on three years ago.
It is super disappointing that none of National's girls are pregnant though. I never heard, is Spike actively breeding them?
I'm equally surprised to hear of Nelson being moved into the bachelor group. It's not unusual to see as it really depends on the bull individually and the cows. He's probably spending his time with the boys during the day, but he should still be with the matriarchal herd overnight.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Unless Nelson is just a particularly difficult young bull, I wonder if him starting the transition to the bachelor herd earlier is in response to one or more of the females being pregnant. Houston is nearing capacity now isn't it? Maybe the goal is for him to fully make the transition by the time new calves are born so that there's more room in the main yard.