North American Asian Elephant Population 2024

Jambo said:
The plan is for Chuck to only breed with Joy in the meantime. Thai (being a wildborn bull) is still a fairly genetically valuable bull, so will obviously have priority when it comes to breeding with Tess and Shanti.

But once Thai passes on, there may be the plan may be for Chuck to become their breeding bull.
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I wouldn't be surprised if Chuck is given a reccomendation to breed with Tupelo as well if that hasn't been given already, we know reccomendations change all the time after all. If she's not pregnant already there's very little reason for her NOT to be bred naturally to an on-site bull.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I wouldn't be surprised if Chuck is given a reccomendation to breed with Tupelo as well if that hasn't been given already, we know reccomendations change all the time after all. If she's not pregnant already there's very little reason for her NOT to be bred naturally to an on-site bull.
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But then again, Chuck comes from a decently represented line so I'm fairly sure that may be part of their reason if they continue AI with Tupelo going forward. Afaik, none of the other females are trained so it's a luxury only she has.
 
Jambo said:
But then again, Chuck comes from a decently represented line so I'm fairly sure that may be part of their reason if they continue AI with Tupelo going forward. Afaik, none of the other females are trained so it's a luxury only she has.
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The other females are trained for the behaviors needed to AI, however, there has never been a need for it as Thai always gets the job done.
 
Jambo said:
But then again, Chuck comes from a decently represented line so I'm fairly sure that may be part of their reason if they continue AI with Tupelo going forward. Afaik, none of the other females are trained so it's a luxury only she has.
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The reason Tupelo was AI'd for her first calf was because there was not an unrelated bull onsite and the zoo wanted her to have her first calf as soon as she was able to. There's not a real reason for her to continue to be AI'd unless she reacts poorly to Chuck. AI is a useful tool but an expensive and invasive one. Doubtlessly the goal is for natural pairings to occur as often as possible.
The SSP also does not view the representation of family lines as strictly as many zoochat users do. In the ultimate scheme of the population, Chuck carries arguable value in terms of both genetics and personality.

We also have to keep in mind that this reccomendation and transfer was a "kill two birds with one stone" situation in which Houston was able to swap a maturing related bull for an unrelated one. Not only giving Houston a great fallback to continue their breeding program when Thai inevitably passes, but allowing Denver to continue with their "bull school" bachelor program. Of the options, Chuck was the best choice for this kind of swap.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
The reason Tupelo was AI'd for her first calf was because there was not an unrelated bull onsite and the zoo wanted her to have her first calf as soon as she was able to. There's not a real reason for her to continue to be AI'd unless she reacts poorly to Chuck. AI is a useful tool but an expensive and invasive one. Doubtlessly the goal is for natural pairings to occur as often as possible.
The SSP also does not view the representation of family lines as strictly as many zoochat users do. In the ultimate scheme of the population, Chuck carries arguable value in terms of both genetics and personality.

We also have to keep in mind that this reccomendation and transfer was a "kill two birds with one stone" situation in which Houston was able to swap a maturing related bull for an unrelated one. Not only giving Houston a great fallback to continue their breeding program when Thai inevitably passes, but allowing Denver to continue with their "bull school" bachelor program. Of the options, Chuck was the best choice for this kind of swap.
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Correct, but we have to keep in mind Tupelo has an AI recommendation for her next calf. Not sure why exactly, but this is the case. Potentially to bolster genetics, I'm not sure but the SSP coordinators will have their reasons.

Natural pairings are the goal, but it's also important to remember there will be careful monitoring of breeding to avoid over representation. Houston will soon have five (going on to six) breeding age females. Breeding Chuck with all of the six females isn't probably the best option. This is where AI comes into play on occasions, or Houston may also consider acquiring another mature bull once Thai passes.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
The reason Tupelo was AI'd for her first calf was because there was not an unrelated bull onsite and the zoo wanted her to have her first calf as soon as she was able to. There's not a real reason for her to continue to be AI'd unless she reacts poorly to Chuck. AI is a useful tool but an expensive and invasive one. Doubtlessly the goal is for natural pairings to occur as often as possible.
The SSP also does not view the representation of family lines as strictly as many zoochat users do. In the ultimate scheme of the population, Chuck carries arguable value in terms of both genetics and personality.

We also have to keep in mind that this reccomendation and transfer was a "kill two birds with one stone" situation in which Houston was able to swap a maturing related bull for an unrelated one. Not only giving Houston a great fallback to continue their breeding program when Thai inevitably passes, but allowing Denver to continue with their "bull school" bachelor program. Of the options, Chuck was the best choice for this kind of swap.
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Even if Chuck has been only given a first recommendation to breed with the one cow it is clear that the Houston Zoo is transitioning to a change of bulls for natural breeding. The approach they and/or the AZA Asiatic Elephant SSP are taking to allow Thai to breed with the other main cows in the breeding group is quite sensible (older age bulls that are still dominant enough to be able to mate and produce calves are invariably those that make an elephant population thrive inside range ... and invariably if one reciprocates this inside an ex situ conservation breeding exhibit.

I do think that over time it will become imperative for Houston to separate matrilines and that a transfer of a matriarchal grouping elsewhere is more than likely over time. It is reasonable to assume that more zoos that presently maintain elderly and fairly old Asiatic elephant single sex groups will over time - if and when they choose to continue with a vested elephant group - will allow for expansion of the number of breeding herds and locations able to provide sufficient space for a breeding herd (with all that this implies with separate bull and breeding area exclosures within their elephant complex.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
Even if Chuck has been only given a first recommendation to breed with the one cow it is clear that the Houston Zoo is transitioning to a change of bulls for natural breeding. The approach they and/or the AZA Asiatic Elephant SSP are taking to allow Thai to breed with the other main cows in the breeding group is quite sensible (older age bulls that are still dominant enough to be able to mate and produce calves are invariably those that make an elephant population thrive inside range ... and invariably if one reciprocates this inside an ex situ conservation breeding exhibit.
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I very much agree - whilst Chuck has only initially been given a recommendation with one cow, it's likely he'll be given more once Thai passes on.

With Thai's age, it's quite remarkable he's still in the right shape for breeding. Considering his genetic value, it's no surprise the SSP is still giving him recommendations.
Kifaru Bwana said:
I do think that over time it will become imperative for Houston to separate matrilines and that a transfer of a matriarchal grouping elsewhere is more than likely over time. It is reasonable to assume that more zoos that presently maintain elderly and fairly old Asiatic elephant single sex groups will over time - if and when they choose to continue with a vested elephant group - will allow for expansion of the number of breeding herds and locations able to provide sufficient space for a breeding herd (with all that this implies with separate bull and breeding area exclosures within their elephant complex.
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Correct, and I'm surprised this wasn't outlined in the SSP report. Houston will soon have three additional females breeding within the next decade. By that time, I do wonder if they elect to retire Tess and Shanti from breeding and just breed from Tupelo and the younger girls. I guess they could maintain a breeding herd consisting of those cows, but it wouldn't allow them to breed at natural intervals (like they are now) with the space they have.

Furthermore, Joy's breeding recommendation and Shanti's current pregnancy would make a herd split in the next few years difficult.
 
Jambo said:
I very much agree - whilst Chuck has only initially been given a recommendation with one cow, it's likely he'll be given more once Thai passes on.

With Thai's age, it's quite remarkable he's still in the right shape for breeding. Considering his genetic value, it's no surprise the SSP is still giving him recommendations.

Correct, and I'm surprised this wasn't outlined in the SSP report. Houston will soon have three additional females breeding within the next decade. By that time, I do wonder if they elect to retire Tess and Shanti from breeding and just breed from Tupelo and the younger girls. I guess they could maintain a breeding herd consisting of those cows, but it wouldn't allow them to breed at natural intervals (like they are now) with the space they have.

Furthermore, Joy's breeding recommendation and Shanti's current pregnancy would make a herd split in the next few years difficult.
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Tess is 40, its incredibly likely that she'll only have one more calf before being retired. Historically females in the US population tend to only be bred until shortly after age 40. She's certianly close to retirement now to some degree. Its incredibly likely that Chuck will become the primary breeding male for the younger females for at least a portion of time.

Jambo said:
Furthermore, Joy's breeding recommendation and Shanti's current pregnancy would make a herd split in the next few years difficult.
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The SSP report was only reccomendations up until 2026, so if there would be a matriarchal split then it would be after that year for multiple reasons.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
Even if Chuck has been only given a first recommendation to breed with the one cow it is clear that the Houston Zoo is transitioning to a change of bulls for natural breeding. The approach they and/or the AZA Asiatic Elephant SSP are taking to allow Thai to breed with the other main cows in the breeding group is quite sensible (older age bulls that are still dominant enough to be able to mate and produce calves are invariably those that make an elephant population thrive inside range ... and invariably if one reciprocates this inside an ex situ conservation breeding exhibit.

I do think that over time it will become imperative for Houston to separate matrilines and that a transfer of a matriarchal grouping elsewhere is more than likely over time. It is reasonable to assume that more zoos that presently maintain elderly and fairly old Asiatic elephant single sex groups will over time - if and when they choose to continue with a vested elephant group - will allow for expansion of the number of breeding herds and locations able to provide sufficient space for a breeding herd (with all that this implies with separate bull and breeding area exclosures within their elephant complex.
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Are you saying they are breeding Thai with the older females or with the 6 coming into first oestrus females ?
 
I also have a Followup Question to the Experts:

When did the Oregon Zoo start breeding Chendra with Tusko ?
I know it is forbidden to crossbreed borneos these days but it wasnt back then.

Now the attempts were not successful but anyone saw Tusko trying to mount Chendra and anyone know when they started ?

Kind regards
 
En!gma said:
I also have a Followup Question to the Experts:

When did the Oregon Zoo start breeding Chendra with Tusko ?
I know it is forbidden to crossbreed borneos these days but it wasnt back then.

Now the attempts were not successful but anyone saw Tusko trying to mount Chendra and anyone know when they started ?

Kind regards
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Tusko arrived in 2005, there seemed to be plans to breed the pair beginning in the early 2010's once Chendra was of adequate reproductive age.

Not sure if they were ever paired together, but she was later paired with Samson and Samundra resulting in her miscarriage in 2019.
 
Jambo said:
Tusko arrived in 2005, there seemed to be plans to breed the pair beginning in the early 2010's once Chendra was of adequate reproductive age.

Not sure if they were ever paired together, but she was later paired with Samson and Samundra resulting in her miscarriage in 2019.
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Actually in the meantime there was a video discovered:

(Despite of us Timetravellers already knowing) it wasnt successful.

Now the timeframe lines up with your comment but i wonder if they started even earlier as she already was in breeding age when Tusko arrived in 2005.

Altho it could be possible that they waited a little longer considering their sizedifference. Being a Borneo, she must have been considerably smaller than in the video back then.

Does anyone know if the zoo would be willing to elaborate ? Most zoos are very restricted with giving information tho.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
For Thai it remains important that he may breed with the older females as in number of calves he may have sired a good number, however quite a few of these have not survived into adulthood.
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Especially given the fact he is a wildborn founder bull, his genetics are incredibly valuable.

Right now he only has five offspring, so isn't as represented as most people think. His eldest daughter has breed and will continue too and there's equal priority breeding her younger sister as well.

Thai's two eldest sons are both at Denver (in a non breeding situation), and his youngest son likely will be in a similar situation too down the line. In saying that, young Teddy is probably the most likely to be in a breeding situation down the line (being the offspring of two founders).

The goal should be to get another calf from both Shanti and Tess, with Thai. Obviously this has partly been achieved with the pregnancy announcement of Shanti and hopefully Tess will also conceive asap.
 
Jambo said:
Especially given the fact he is a wildborn founder bull, his genetics are incredibly valuable.

Right now he only has five offspring, so isn't as represented as most people think. His eldest daughter has breed and will continue too and there's equal priority breeding her younger sister as well.

Thai's two eldest sons are both at Denver (in a non breeding situation), and his youngest son likely will be in a similar situation too down the line. In saying that, young Teddy is probably the most likely to be in a breeding situation down the line (being the offspring of two founders).

The goal should be to get another calf from both Shanti and Tess, with Thai. Obviously this has partly been achieved with the pregnancy announcement of Shanti and hopefully Tess will also conceive asap.
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When will Thais daughters be ready to mate ?
 
En!gma said:
When will Thais daughters be ready to mate ?
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Thai's eldest daughter (Tupelo) already has one calf - Winnie.

His other daughter (Tilly) will only turn six this year so she still has another few years at least before she'll be given the opportunity to breed. She is a priority female within the SSP though.

Both females are also the offspring of Tess (another wildborn cow), making them very valuable.
 
Jambo said:
Thai's eldest daughter (Tupelo) already has one calf - Winnie.

His other daughter (Tilly) will only turn six this year so she still has another few years at least before she'll be given the opportunity to breed. She is a priority female within the SSP though.

Both females are also the offspring of Tess (another wildborn cow), making them very valuable.
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Do you know the enviroment they live in ? Is there enough space ? Thai would not be the first Bull to mount his young Daughters.
 
En!gma said:
Do you know the enviroment they live in ? Is there enough space ? Thai would not be the first Bull to mount his young Daughters.
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There is certainly enough space for them, yes. Houston have one of the best elephant facilities in the country.

Thai wouldn't be bred with either of his daughters. Houston recently received a bull from Denver (named Chuck) who'll potentially be the male to mate with both females down the line.
 
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