Northern White Rhino's going back to Africa
- Thread starter Hix
- Start date
Interesting the article I read says they hope to save the subspecies and preserve the genetics by hybridizing them with southern whites. Isn't this a contradiction?
Or maybe they meant to imply (but didn't properly explain) that producing hybrids is the only hope and putting those eventually back into their former range is better than putting 100% southerns back into the northern range?
Or maybe they meant to imply (but didn't properly explain) that producing hybrids is the only hope and putting those eventually back into their former range is better than putting 100% southerns back into the northern range?
Nope, no suggestion there at all. What they have done is take ovae and semen off northern whites and preserve them in a genetics bank. IZW is working on this project.
I feel it is a very courageous move that leads by example. But rightly so Zoo Dvur Kralove is the only zoo to have ever had breeding success with this particular taxon. In the past they worked also with SD Zoo, but that move did not bring the expected fruits. The latter again underlining Dvur Kralove's record with this and other rhino species.
I have not given up on the species and neither should any of us untill such time that all northern whites are gone. And I do not think for one minute we cannot save them ...!
taun
Well-Known Member
I believe the whole point in hybridizing them is to ensure that the Northern white genes is passed on, where it hoped in a 10 or so years down the line this genes will become the ones needed to survive in the former range thus eventually producing something like a Northern White Rhino.
I hope that makes sense!
I have yet to read a single source that even hints at hybridizing. Where is this coming from?
taun
Well-Known Member
I was just answering Arizona Docent question, I stupidly had not read the article. Sorry if it has led to any confusion.
Well, I didn't read the article on this thread because I assumed it was the same one I had seen the day before (but obviously it is not). The one I read was one of the rotating news article that appear on the lower right part of the ZooChat main page. (The ones that change regularly). It clearly said they are sending them to Kenya to a rhino sanctuary to crossbreed them with southern whites. Perhaps that article is incorrect.
Ok, I found the article, but I guess I put too much weight into the following line: "The females could be mated with southern white rhinos - a different subspecies - to keep the gene pool alive." I thought that was the definite plan, but the phrase "could be" means that perhaps they are keeping that option as a backup plan if the northerns don't breed with each other?
Here's the article: 4 rare northern white rhinos relocated to Kenya - World AP - MiamiHerald.com
If this is a last-ditch effort, and it surely is, I wonder why they don't send all of the northerns back. Not only the remaining two at Czech but also the two from San Diego WAP. Even if they are beyond breeding age, wouldn't their presence help stimulate breeding since white rhinos are the only social rhino species? (Just a question - perhaps some rhino keepers out there can answer).
Here's the article: 4 rare northern white rhinos relocated to Kenya - World AP - MiamiHerald.com
If this is a last-ditch effort, and it surely is, I wonder why they don't send all of the northerns back. Not only the remaining two at Czech but also the two from San Diego WAP. Even if they are beyond breeding age, wouldn't their presence help stimulate breeding since white rhinos are the only social rhino species? (Just a question - perhaps some rhino keepers out there can answer).
That sentence sounds like completely made up.
putting aside my intense dislike for dvur kralove zoo's management of this subspecies to avoid a rant...
hybridising will keep the northern gene pool alive - just not in pure form.
but the logic is obviously that a mixed blood population that contains the genes for the advantageous adaptions of the northern race, will be subtly more suited to the environment than pure southerns.
in regards to sending all the northerns back - there is not much point. they are not a species. just a race. locally sourced SWR are just as likely to spur breeding behaviour as any NWR are - if not moreso, since they will be new and potentially younger animals unfamiliar to the four transported northerns.
hybridising will keep the northern gene pool alive - just not in pure form.
but the logic is obviously that a mixed blood population that contains the genes for the advantageous adaptions of the northern race, will be subtly more suited to the environment than pure southerns.
in regards to sending all the northerns back - there is not much point. they are not a species. just a race. locally sourced SWR are just as likely to spur breeding behaviour as any NWR are - if not moreso, since they will be new and potentially younger animals unfamiliar to the four transported northerns.
love to read up on that if you have any links mark....
i think its worth remembering two points when it comes to this taxon and its preservation.
1) it is just a race of white rhino. not a full species
2) it is already effectively extinct.
thus, the only way to preserve this race in pure form is through cloning and reproductive technologies. a science that in the case of white rhino - isn't quite up to the task just yet.
so, since cloning is the only way to preserve the subspecies, then we shouldn't get too stressed about trying to preserve their genetic integrity through conventional breeding with just 4 animals. after all, if we are going to have to clone them anyways, it makes no real difference if the cloned NWR grow inside a pure NWR, hybrid of SWR surrogate.
sure, see if these four breed with eachother - it was worth getting them out of dvur kralove who had failed at a breeding program anyway - but i reckon hybridisation is inevitable and not necessarily a bad thing either.
i think the fate of the NWR is sealed - "extinct until further notice"
i think its worth remembering two points when it comes to this taxon and its preservation.
1) it is just a race of white rhino. not a full species
2) it is already effectively extinct.
thus, the only way to preserve this race in pure form is through cloning and reproductive technologies. a science that in the case of white rhino - isn't quite up to the task just yet.
so, since cloning is the only way to preserve the subspecies, then we shouldn't get too stressed about trying to preserve their genetic integrity through conventional breeding with just 4 animals. after all, if we are going to have to clone them anyways, it makes no real difference if the cloned NWR grow inside a pure NWR, hybrid of SWR surrogate.
sure, see if these four breed with eachother - it was worth getting them out of dvur kralove who had failed at a breeding program anyway - but i reckon hybridisation is inevitable and not necessarily a bad thing either.
i think the fate of the NWR is sealed - "extinct until further notice"
MARK
Well-Known Member
Phoenix, Have a look at the RRC Rhino website it maybe of interest to you.
Also they have some really good photos of all Rhino species and up to date information.
I tend to agree with what you have stated above
I tend to agree for the most part, but would like to avoid integration if possible (although I know that might not be possible). However, if they do mix the the genes, the NWR genes must be kept out of the Southern population.
Hix
This is an 3 before 12am rescue project, I admit to that. But even with only so few representatives left ..., I think we should make a last determined effort.
I disagree on several basic points:
1) Effectively extinct population means no reproductively able population left, so down to single sex figures.
2) The Dvur Kralove Zoo did not have a failed breeding programme, they bred several northern white rhinos in the first place.
3) Definite advances have been made in the technology for AI and embryo transfer in several other species (gaur-Holsteiner cow surrogates), so within the next 2-10 years that might be equally applicable to northern whites by using southern whites.
4) There is a 4% genetic difference between northern and southern whites, so preserving separate gene pools would be the preferred option.
5) The decision to relocate to Kenya was borne out during 2003-4 by Dvur zoo management staff and independent scientific staff. The then political status quo - mainly attributable to Congolese intransigence and some "arrogance" prevented part of the Garamba population be translocated with the Dvur captives to Kenya there and then. The latest effort represents our last ditch attempt at averting extinction.
6) The funds required for a 3-year project were donated by a private individual and will not avert attention away from equally deserving endangered species.
My overall assessment is more positive and cannot hurt but to try our hardest ..., so as not to create the impression we are indifferent to any extinction risk of any given species. Remember 2010 is CIB/Biodiversity Year.
I disagree on several basic points:
1) Effectively extinct population means no reproductively able population left, so down to single sex figures.
2) The Dvur Kralove Zoo did not have a failed breeding programme, they bred several northern white rhinos in the first place.
3) Definite advances have been made in the technology for AI and embryo transfer in several other species (gaur-Holsteiner cow surrogates), so within the next 2-10 years that might be equally applicable to northern whites by using southern whites.
4) There is a 4% genetic difference between northern and southern whites, so preserving separate gene pools would be the preferred option.
5) The decision to relocate to Kenya was borne out during 2003-4 by Dvur zoo management staff and independent scientific staff. The then political status quo - mainly attributable to Congolese intransigence and some "arrogance" prevented part of the Garamba population be translocated with the Dvur captives to Kenya there and then. The latest effort represents our last ditch attempt at averting extinction.
6) The funds required for a 3-year project were donated by a private individual and will not avert attention away from equally deserving endangered species.
My overall assessment is more positive and cannot hurt but to try our hardest ..., so as not to create the impression we are indifferent to any extinction risk of any given species. Remember 2010 is CIB/Biodiversity Year.
dvur kralove bred a few animals. but they failed to replicate that success. i don't blame them for that. a cold climate zoo is far from ideal and not really up to the task. what i blame them for is refusing to acknowledge that fact. for stalling for 10 years and sealing a much darker fate for the last NWR than would have been had they been moved to a more appropriate zoo or preserve a decade earlier.
dvur kralove gets no credit from me.
dvur kralove gets no credit from me.