Edinburgh Zoo Not again!

[TARZAN]

,,

I find it difficult to be rational - on the one hand I'm very fond of th RRHs at YWP and if they had babies I'd find it hard to accept them being culled but on the other hand I like a bit of pork and that was some pig's sweet little baby. I try to buy pork that had an OK life but how many of the people getting upset over these animals has thoughtlessly eaten some poor pig that had a hellish life.

Still not saying I like it!

I think you are wrestling with your conscience, that is perfectly normal, I remember a few years ago when a pair of Tamworth pigs escaped from a slaughter house and proceeded to run off and went missing for days. This story hit the national press and certainly captured the public's interest, the Tamworth two they were named, later named Butch and Sundancer, when they were finally captured. These pigs were not slaughtered but went to live at a sanctuary, perhaps the British public were being hypocritical by demanding a reprieve for these pigs, millions of pigs are indeed slaughtered in this country every year to feed its omnivorous population , the fact is that the public had identified with two pigs, seen their picture on television and had been given names, they were not slices of pork in a polystyrene tray in the supermarket.What makes the case of the red river hogs even worse is the fact that they have been born in a respectable zoo, indeed their birth is announced in the press as great news, given names and later killed, hopefully nobody noticed, well people have noticed, there is nothing we can do for the previous litter as unfortunately they have been disposed of before anyone could do anything about it, but there is now a second litter and people are aware of what might happen to them, the spotlight is now on you Edinburgh Zoo, do the decent thing and re home these animals at a good home.

 

[TARZAN]

The arguement with regards to the slaughtering of domestic pigs against the RRH is ridiculous in my opinion. These animals have been domesticated over 100's of years for the sole purpose of providing meat.

However the RRH at the zoo are not domesticated and are not bred for consumption, it appears the zoo like to have the cute little baby hogs running around for a few weeks to please the general public. This is the same as the attitude taken by copenhagen zoo with regards to the lions young, which i suspect is motivated by pleasing the public as opposed to animal welfare. To breed animals to provide amusement and then have them culled is inhumane IMO, afterall isnt the purpose of zoo's these days meant to be to conserve and protect?!

Go on boy get stuck in that's the spirit, by the way where are Sooty and Sweep tonight perhaps they are taking Sweep's mothers advice by keeping their mouth shut when they have nothing sensible to say.

 

[Peter Dickinson]

"To breed animals to provide amusement and then have them culled is inhumane IMO, afterall isnt the purpose of zoo's these days meant to be to conserve and protect?!"

This is NOT what it is all about. I am in 100% support with whatever decision that Edinburgh Zoo comes to with regard to these animals because I know that it will be the right decision. A decision made by people who have expertise and a full understanding as to what a conservation breeding programme is all about. Such decisions should not be swayed by those who fail to even try and understand. I believe I may have posted the links last time the discussion came up but will do again as they are relevant to this discussion.
The Good Zoo and Euthanasia Zoo News Digest: The Good Zoo and Euthanasia
and
Zoos and Euthanasia
Zoos and Euthanasia

 

[Shorts]

Go on boy get stuck in that's the spirit, by the way where are Sooty and Sweep tonight perhaps they are taking Sweep's mothers advice by keeping their mouth shut when they have nothing sensible to say.

And if you've got nothing sensible to add to the debate other than "playground remarks" maybe you'd be better off not posting too.

There's nothing wrong with heated debate around strongly opposing views but your remark (and the previous couple) here demean yourself and the thread itself.

 

[Cheetah fan]

Just my thoughts on this. I was under the impression that if a species was in a breeding programme or managed they could not be fed to carnivores. I know there is rules to stop dead zoo animals being fed to the carnivores at zoo's so surely if they kill these youngsters they wouldn't be allowed to do as some have suggested. I think its stupidity after the first case that is has arisen again. Surely it makes more sense for Edinburgh to move or separate this couple and keep the youngsters to avoid another case like this.

 

[Pertinax]

just to clear up blackbrook where never refused red river hogs for any reason, we looked into getting either red river hogs or visayan warty pigs. After personaly contacting both stud book keepers we decided to go down the route of the visayan warty pig. There was a few reasons for this decision with the main ones being that the red river hog genetics where i quite a mess with most being related, the other is that the visayan warty pig is a criticly endangered species which so far has a manageble population and also has a in-situ conservation project.

Hope this goes some way to clear up the situation, and just to clarify what people have said Blackbrook IS a full member of EAZA and has been for a few years now!

Bloodycurtus. Thankyou for pointing out the true Blackbrook situation with reference to all of this.

 

[Pertinax]

If this was a non-recommended breeding then the piglets would not be part of the program.

Thus, Edinburgh can do what they like with them. There are protocols in place that would allow them to go to independent zoos.

This sort of thing happens all the time in Australia and with species of much greater conservation significance. Nobody gets sent to the naughty corner as a result.

That thought occurred to me also. However it seems that though the breeding programme didn't recommend these breedings, their guidelines are still being followed with regard to the subsequent outcome.

The root of the problem seems to be that despite being classified as 'Least Concern' this species is still part of a managed breeding programme in Europe.

 

[Ferret_man]

I can see why Edinburgh cant keep the offspring, if it is recommended that they don't breed from the pair in future they could castrate all the boars they should live harmoniously.. but I have never visited Edinburgh so can not comment if they have the space or not??

 

[Nisha]

Forget the hog chops!

U turn for Edinburgh! They have now agreed to try and do everything they can to re-house all three of them. Hopefully there are collections out their that will take them in

Zoo piglets' bacon saved after protest - Scotsman.com News

 

[Pertinax]

Interesting.....

I wonder if any zoos will now contact them about taking them. I notice they say they will still allow the parents to carry on breeding- but the EEP appears from the last line to be maintaining its distance from their decisions.

I think Edinburgh have brought themselves a load of bad publicity over this- for no good reason.

 

[Javan Rhino]

Interesting.....

I wonder if any zoos will now contact them about taking them. I notice they say they will still allow the parents to carry on breeding- but the EEP appears from the last line to be maintaining its distance from their decisions.

I think Edinburgh have brought themselves a load of bad publicity over this- for no good reason.

What I see is that it says in the article 'anybody that can suitibly house them should get in touch with the zoo' - could this even mean farms, private zoos or even people with enough money to own some land and build a house/paddock for them? - Certainly, if I could house them I wouldn't pass up this chance.

 

[NigeW]

Absurd really, that the zoo have contrived to place the press in the position where they can claim to have saved these animals.

I totally agree with Pertinax and in fact most posters, this situation could easily have been avoided.

I hope they don't career headlong into the same situation again in the future, and learn from this.

 

[Pootle]

Interesting.....

I wonder if any zoos will now contact them about taking them. I notice they say they will still allow the parents to carry on breeding- but the EEP appears from the last line to be maintaining its distance from their decisions.

I think Edinburgh have brought themselves a load of bad publicity over this- for no good reason.

I certainly agree, they have done themselves no favours whatsoever with this publicity. It appears that if it where not for a public (us lot who keep zoos open) protest the trio would have been put down.

I am sure there are excellent houses for these piglets across the UK at several locations to give them a cracking standard of life.

Also for my two pennies worth, if Edinburgh Zoo cannot manage more than the current population it holds of a particular species such as these RRH then seriously look at stopping the breeding of them now to avoid future unwanted litters and a repeat perfromance of this. Events like this fuel the anti-zoo brigade.

 

[johnstoni]

In his post, Peter Dickinson presented two, highly subjective, opinion pieces he'd previously written as 'the links', as if these are the final word on the subject of Euthanasia from an authoritative voice. Please Mr Dickinson, if you're going to link to even more of the same opinion as the one you post on zoochat, please be clearer that you are linking to more of your own thoughts.

Here are some gems from the articles:

'The uninformed'

Who are these people? The people who disagree with you? Its quite arrogant to assume that all those who question decisions taken at Edinburgh to be uninformed, did you think you were being magnanimous?

'The zoos often create the situation themselves with publicity photos and 'name the baby' competitions and there is nothing wrong in that.'

Quite. But those zoos who engage in this kind of marketing cannot complain when their stupid, 'uniformed' customer base, ie their funders, take issue with animals their children have been invited to identify with and feel empathy towards, are to be killed.

Passing or selling surplus animals outside of the species management programme is both dangerous and defeatist.'

Is or can be? Passing is not the same as selling. Passing stock to a non-EEP collection does not mean the recipient collection would not make attempts to join the EEP. It does not mean stock would go to a non-BIAZA/EAZA member.

'Sending unwanted surplus animals away to the so called 'rescue centres' or 'sanctuaries' is quite simply, wrong. The 'out of sight, out of mind' attitude does nothing at all for species conservation. It is a cowardly way out. The 'Rescue Centres' and 'Sanctuaries' are undoubtedly saving lives but they are NOT saving species. The opposite is more true. They may even breed animals and so compound the problem. They are not breeding for conservation however.'

I'm sure Monkey Haven on the Isle of Wight, or Monkey World, don't appreciate being tarred with the same brush as other rescue establishments. 'Sanctuaries' are a very diverse group of zoological collections, and I don't think you can simplify their role just to support a point you'd like to make.

'They (sanctuaries) breed to line their pockets by having cubs on show to present to a gullible public.'

The irony of this statement needs no explanation.

'Is the life of one surplus tiger worth more than that of a hundred or so cows?'

Am I suddenly reading a press release from Compassion in World Farming? Now we're doing it for the cows? We must cull the 'useless eaters' of the zoo world so that our farm livestock live and die in dignity! Tigers are an amazing teaching tool, go to the Isle of Wight zoo and see if you can find visitors making negative distinctions between their tigers based on genetic purity. They don't need pure tigers to make a decent contribution to tiger conservation.

'For some odd reason there is a segment of society who will state that as vegetarians they are against the killing of all animals. There are many zoo keepers who are vegetarians. These zoo keeping vegetarians will butcher, prepare meat and occasionally kill or cull.'

To make personal choices about your own diet does not mean you'd be arrogant enough to impose these choices on carnivorous animals. This has nothing to do with whether or not you agree with culling, it is disingenous to suggest these things are one and the same.

 

[Pertinax]

What I see is that it says in the article 'anybody that can suitibly house them should get in touch with the zoo' - could this even mean farms, private zoos or even people with enough money to own some land and build a house/paddock for them? -

Yes it does say that. I would imagine they would obviously carefully vet any offers made. Probably a recognised zoo or wildlife park would get preference if anywhere of that nature comes forward. The implication is still that no such establishments want them though.

Its possible Jersey could take one of them for their two females, although they may already have been 'allocated' a male from another source.

 

[Pertinax]

I am in 100% support with whatever decision that Edinburgh Zoo comes to with regard to these animals because I know that it will be the right decision. A decision made by people who have expertise and a full understanding as to what a conservation breeding programme is all about.

So planning to first euthanase them, and then to offer them out to virtually anyone who can house them, are both correct decisions?

 

[Javan Rhino]

Yes it does say that. I would imagine they would obviously carefully vet any offers made. Probably a recognised zoo or wildlife park would get preference if anywhere of that nature comes forward. The implication is still that no such establishments want them though.

Its possible Jersey could take one of them for their two females, although they may already have been 'allocated' a male from another source.

Makes sense, I just thought because before this came about they couldn't be sent to a non-EAZA collection - hopefully now there will be some more interest in them from non-EAZA zoos if they can get them. It will be good publicity for whoever steps forward and offers a home for them.

 

[Pootle]

BREAKING NEWS :


An application to home and feed the three piglets from a certain Mr. B.B. Wolf has been turned down by the zoo.

 

[Shoebill]

Such "discussions" as this only serve to highlight how little some Zoochat members and moderators know about the basic workings of a zoo and EAZA breeding programmes.

Pertinax, you are rocking out the classic lines once more. Brilliant.

 

[jwer]

Such "discussions" as this only serve to highlight how little some Zoochat members and moderators know about the basic workings of a zoo and EAZA breeding programmes.

Pertinax, you are rocking out the classic lines once more. Brilliant.

More condescending b.... please, good heavens the zoo community is full of itself.

Either enlighten us with your wisdom or shut up. I'm really fed up with the arrogance many people that claim to work in the industry show towards the public. Especially since it's the public that's the sole reason for the existence of zoos, and the fact they have a job.

I'm getting to a point i no longer feel like going to a zoo, just because i'm not willing to pay the salary of the people that bash me on this forum anymore.

Showing some respect or at least compassion for the opinions of others might do the whole world some good, not just the zoological world. And if you have knowledge about something that would add to the discussion then disclose it, or just go away.

Getting really fed up with these kind of reactions.