A.) Call the park by it's proper name. B.) Dholes are a terrible idea given space requirements. C.) I think they have, like, thirty dholes now and given future plans aren't going anywhere.
San Diego Zoo Pandas are leaving San Diego Zoo
- Thread starter SharkFinatic
- Start date
A.) Call the park by it's proper name. B.) Dholes are a terrible idea given space requirements. C.) I think they have, like, thirty dholes now and given future plans aren't going anywhere.
The official website says San Diego Zoo Safari Park though...?
How much space do dholes need? All I know is that they are medium-sized canids, for which the area of the giant panda habitats, if remodeled, seems adequate.
Given that most sources state that the life expectancy of a Giant Panda is up to 30 years in captivity, and that Bai Yun is 28 years old in September; is it really in her best interests to return to China?
The stress of transport and the long haul flight aside; San Diego Zoo has been the familiar home of this elderly Giant panda for 23 years, who no doubt will be sensitive to any major changes to her routine.
I get that she was loaned to the San Diego Zoo (not given); but considering the zoo were up until recently, hopeful of extending her stay, surely an extension could have been given so she could live out her retirement years in this world class zoo.
The stress of transport and the long haul flight aside; San Diego Zoo has been the familiar home of this elderly Giant panda for 23 years, who no doubt will be sensitive to any major changes to her routine.
I get that she was loaned to the San Diego Zoo (not given); but considering the zoo were up until recently, hopeful of extending her stay, surely an extension could have been given so she could live out her retirement years in this world class zoo.
I never got to see them during my visit due to a long lineup (as well as all the other animals in that area except for the takin). Not too much of a blow for me as I've seen pandas multiple times when they were in Toronto.This is clearly a renegotiation tactic. The $1 million/year “rental fee” no longer makes sense when pandas can now be seen in so many other zoos around the world. I will be shocked if there isn’t a return of pandas to San Diego—under different, more reasonable contractual terms—within two or three years.
Given the size of the enclosures I would say these are all bad ideas for those yards.
Why wouldn't they go anywhere? They have plans to put them on-exhibit at the park, sent some to Miami not that long ago, and have talked to other zoos about sending them Dholes.
I'd say two to six years depending on which office wins the next election...
~Thylo
There’s a fantastic article here which describes Bai Yun’s value to Giant Panda research in the Western world:
San Diego Zoo’s panda mom a giant gift to science
The data the San Diego Zoo has been able to gather from Bai Yun, from her hormone levels and estrus cycles; to her pseudo pregnancies, actual pregnancies and cub rearing have been invaluable. As the mother of the first Giant panda cub to be successfully reared to adulthood in the USA, the achievements of Bai Yun and the San Diego Zoo were truly pioneering.
Giant pandas breed readily in captivity in China, which is all well and good; but they clearly prove more of a challenge in zoos outside of China and it’s animals like Bai Yun that contribute to the research pool of how other zoos can experience the same success. The Smithsonian National Zoo and Zoo Atlanta would have benefited immensely from the knowledge and expertise of the San Diego Zoo; and in return, contributed their own experiences (e.g. how to successfully rear twins).
I hope the San Diego Zoo will continue with the species they have enjoyed so much success with; but I still stand by my opinion Bai Yun should remain at San Diego Zoo for the rest of her days.
I think her keeper makes a good point here:
“It is too early to speculate about what will happen next, but the people who know her best hope that Bai Yun’s San Diego story is just getting started. Things don’t stop because there is no baby. Now we will be dealing with geriatric pandas, and what we find out will be helpful to other institutions as their pandas age.”
San Diego Zoo’s panda mom a giant gift to science
The data the San Diego Zoo has been able to gather from Bai Yun, from her hormone levels and estrus cycles; to her pseudo pregnancies, actual pregnancies and cub rearing have been invaluable. As the mother of the first Giant panda cub to be successfully reared to adulthood in the USA, the achievements of Bai Yun and the San Diego Zoo were truly pioneering.
Giant pandas breed readily in captivity in China, which is all well and good; but they clearly prove more of a challenge in zoos outside of China and it’s animals like Bai Yun that contribute to the research pool of how other zoos can experience the same success. The Smithsonian National Zoo and Zoo Atlanta would have benefited immensely from the knowledge and expertise of the San Diego Zoo; and in return, contributed their own experiences (e.g. how to successfully rear twins).
I hope the San Diego Zoo will continue with the species they have enjoyed so much success with; but I still stand by my opinion Bai Yun should remain at San Diego Zoo for the rest of her days.
I think her keeper makes a good point here:
“It is too early to speculate about what will happen next, but the people who know her best hope that Bai Yun’s San Diego story is just getting started. Things don’t stop because there is no baby. Now we will be dealing with geriatric pandas, and what we find out will be helpful to other institutions as their pandas age.”
Pay, the only reason Pandas breed so poorly in zoos outside of range countries and so well in china has hardly anything to do with husbandry or luck, it simply comes down to numbers. China has its prolific panda mills full of breeding animals. When a female cycles, there are males a plenty for her to breed with, and if they have a few that are non-breeders for whatever reason, no biggie, they have many others to take their place. With these loaned animals, it quite different, with all these single animals, they're absolutely hooped if something is wrong with one of their animals, especially the female. Look at poor Memphis for example. They've had their pandas for years, and are stuck with a dud female who cycles a-seasonally, and have had absolutely no luck getting cubs out of her. If China didn't keep this stupid monopoly on their animals, a new female could have been transferred from Atlanta or the Smithsonian, but no, instead they all have to go back to china and Memphis can get screwed. Of course the situation isn't so bad when the male is a behavioural non breeder, as AI seems to be rather successful with animals in good condition, but still...
And of course this is not to poopoo on San Diego at all, but more just a general frustration the whole panda situation.
And of course this is not to poopoo on San Diego at all, but more just a general frustration the whole panda situation.
I suspect it's more of a Chinese reaction to the trade war - the US is using Huawei executives as a bargaining chip and China is using pandas (among other things) as a bargaining chip. SDZ would not want to lose the pandas. They are iconic and loved. SDZ has invested huge money into the pandas and SDZ would not want to see that wasted. I have no doubt that SDZ officials have been calling their congressmen and the White House. Hopefully the trade war can be resolved quickly and a deal can be reached to bring new pandas to SDZ.
History of Giant pandas at San Diego Zoo :
San Diego and giant pandas: A match made three decades ago
San Diego and giant pandas: A match made three decades ago
Sorry if I'm a bit late to this whole discussion but wow, this is some unexpected news. Of all the North American zoos I'd have thought San Diego was the most likely to always have pandas,so this news came as quite a bi shock to me. The thing that interests me most about this whole situation is what will replace the Pandas and I really don't know what could fill that exhibit. I'd assume it would be a popular zoo animal as they would want to have an animal that could anchor that section of the zoo. Perhaps they could convert it into a Red Panda habitat and then put a crane in their old exhibit? I honestly have no idea what will happen but it'll surely be quite interesting.
Thank you. I'll be here all week.
Maybe their francois langurs could replace the pandas? I could see them extensively planting shrubs and tree saplings as well as adding netting. If the US and China end up with a new trade deal once all the politics are dealt with, they could either maintain the langurs and forget this ever happened, or possibly go for golden snub-nosed monkeys. Or they could go back for more pandas. The third option being most likely.
I have no insight into what San Diego will do with their empty panda exhibits, but they are saying in the media that they will maintain the panda exhibit with the expectation that pandas will be coming back at some point.
I agree with @DavidBrown . I cannot see them doing extensive modification (e.g. adding netting) if they plan to use it for pandas again. I must say this whole situation is quite a shock.
Ask LA how well that plan turned out
I went to see the pandas today, and the zoo educator who gives the panda talks said outright that the zoo is not changing the exhibit and expects pandas to be coming back at some point.
Yeah, fair's fair. I guess I was a bit too optimistic, but given the news cycle these days I wouldn't be surprised if San Diego decided to get douc langurs or proboscis monkeys once more.
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
I totally agree. When Shi Shi and all the other cubs were slated to return, we were notified well in advance. It's the suddenness of this that is so telling. Plus the statement that this had nothing to do with trade relations before anyone had brought that up! There was important geriatric research being gleaned here, so the extensions benefitted both countries. And the rest of the North American pandas are very close to this same juncture; with the Mexican girls gone, and the six remaining adults in the US hovering near the age of 20, the days of cub-production may be dwindling, meaning China has less to lose by ending this generation of pandas at the four US zoos..
Gao Gao was considered so elderly that he wasn't even on exhibit any more--and they decide suddenly that he can withstand a long return trip to China? China did want Shi Shi back to study, so these returns are consistent with that purpose, but the suddenness belies any other reasons given. Russia reacted to US actions by refusing the adoption of Russian orphans; now China is playing hardball with the adoption/rental of Chinese Pandas. How disturbing that endangered species are being used for political gain. This is exactly the OPPOSITE of the "panda diplomacy" begun with the gifting of Ling Ling and Hsing and Hsing to Pat Nixon and the National Zoo. What was once goodwill has been monetized and politicized. The panda team seems just gob-smacked..
How many years ago was that now, though? Just because a plan doesn't work out for one zoo at one time doesn't mean it won't for another zoo at another time. One could easily have said "Ask ABQ how well that plan turned out" when SDZ went after Tasmanian Devils. I suspect it will only be a matter of time before someone imports snub-nosed monkeys, though I do doubt it will be a US zoo.
~Thylo