Pangolins breeding at a Florida charity base

TeaLovingDave said:
To illustrate my point, Zoo Leipzig have kept their pair of Chinese Pangolin successfully, and in good health, for something like eight years - this is about four times the previous record for the taxon in Europe. Taipei Zoo in Singapore, the source of these individuals, has had similar success in keeping the taxon and has actually had a number of successful breedings.
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Taipei is in Taiwan.

I really shouldn't need to point out how ludicrous your statement is but you're on the right track with the quoted paragraph.

-your statement implies that zoo professionals are ignorant of the advances in pangolin husbandry at Taipei and elsewhere.
-Not just Taipei and Leipzig having long term success.
-you're welcome to provide evidence to the contrary but there's absolutely no president I know of where failure with private enthusiasts lead to dismissal of a proposed captive breeding program (There are examples where the opposite is true, for example boelen's python)
-zoos have infinitely greater resources (veterinary teams, nutritionalists, behavioural researchers and they fund relevant field work) this is beyond most private enthusiasts.
-the number of pangolins exported for the live trade are insignificant when contrasted with the figures taken as bush meat or traditional medicine. When/if necessary pangolins can be bumped up to appendix I.

If an ex-situ captive breeding program is deemed necessary there's no plausible scenario where an educated person would dismiss it because the failings of a private individual.
 
So we may as well use this a news thread for the place. They've just made an announcement on Facebook, and as I was typing this, posted a link instead, so here's the link:
We?re Headed Back to Africa & Need Your Help! – Pangolin Conservation

Summary:

They want you to donate, using this link: DONATE – Pangolin Conservation
They will be surveying suitable habitat in West Africa, determining where to use their resources.
Buying a facility in West Africa, to be used as a place to stay, a rehabilitation facility for Pangolins, and more.
Collecting information on Pangolin trade in West Africa.
Collecting ant and termite samples for nutritional analysis to improve their pangolin diet.
Collecting information on pangolin parasites.
Following up on unconfirmed reports of the black bellied tree pangolin (Phataginus tetradactyla) and Giant Pangolin in new areas.
Finding ways to secure the wild population of the Togo Slippery Frog, which according to them, they rediscovered and brought back specimens from a soon-to-be-extinct population (due to construction) to be part of the conservation effort in the USA.
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What zoos have Togo Slippery Frog? (Conraua derooi (Togo Slippery Frog))
They did not state the name of the frog in the article. I had to ask them. Thoughts?
 
jayjds2 said:
Collecting information on Pangolin trade in West Africa.


Finding ways to secure the wild population of the Togo Slippery Frog, which according to them, they rediscovered and brought back specimens from a soon-to-be-extinct population (due to construction) to be part of the conservation effort in the USA.
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What zoos have Togo Slippery Frog?
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Justin Miller is an animal dealer - he is part of the pangolin trade!

No zoos have Togo slippery frogs. They are critically endangered, and in general Conraua species do not do well in captivity (Conraua is the goliath frog genus). The "conservation effort in the USA", I suspect, is him selling them into private trade.
 
I think he meant the illegal trade. And if they got into the hands of private breeders, then so be it. Some of them know what they're doing.
 
jayjds2 said:
I think he meant the illegal trade. And if they got into the hands of private breeders, then so be it. Some of them know what they're doing.
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There is no proof the animals were taken from a soon-to-be-extinct population and I would highly doubt that they invested sufficient research into population research to see what the impact is of them taking these animals from the wild into captivity. Also I would highly doubt that he set up protocols on how to manage this population in such a way that it is helpful for conservation.

And selling animals to private owners without a studbook or agreement on how to manage them as a single population is trade not conservation. Let's not get fooled by the nice words.
 
jayjds2 said:
Is there something else, theoretically, that can determine if this is actually going to happen or not? Or maybe just contact the AZA (don't know if that's possible) and ask them?
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The Pangolin TAG coordinator:
John Gramieri , Austin Zoo

Since Mr. Miller used to run his business out of Fort Worth perhaps they actually know each other.
 
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Thanks. I can't find any contact info, however. He works at the San Antonio Zoo. Austin has two zoos and neither is AZA.
 
jayjds2 said:
Thanks. I can't find any contact info, however. He works at the San Antonio Zoo. Austin has two zoos and neither is AZA.
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He is the mammal curator here. Has been since November. (And AZA lists him as TAG Program Leader)
Austin Zoo

The vice program leader for the TAG is Harrison Edell at Dallas Zoo
 
jayjds2 said:
Any guesses one what facilities they will go to, if they actually are going to send pangolins to AZA zoos (and if the zoos are willing to participate). I feel like San Diego would be a prime candidate, as they already have a white bellied tree pangolin.
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From what I heard a while back, San Diego and other AZA zoos are trying to distance themselves from him. They don't want to support his pangolin trade.

~Thylo:cool:
 
@zooplantman yay for outdated info.
@Thylo while I see their point, I feel that if they had a chance, they'd try at least once.

Back to finding more info.
 
Now that I'm thinking about it, I will visit Austin Zoo on Saturday. I'll ask around and see if I can talk to him.
 
After looking through their Facebook page's videos (page was linked earlier), it appears that two individual pangolins (at least one male, and the other appeared to be a male) have been shown. A video posted on October 29, 2013 was captioned "This guy was sent off to a zoo earlier today. He was very personable and it'll be interesting to see how he does there."

There is no telling if that pangolin is even still alive. To my knowledge (which may not be correct, I could have missed the news) that pangolin did not end up in an AZA zoo. The rest of the videos shared were mostly of Opal, the baby, who appears to still be alive. Her mother is also most likely alive, so that brings the total number up to at least four in the last few years. All of the videos showed very minimal proportions of surrounding area- only bushes, a bit of grassland, or in the case of baby check-ups, a tile floor.

Another link: The Zoo Review: Birth of a Pangolin
This one provides a little more insight than previous shared links.
 
They have arrived in West Africa. In a market which they searched, they found a vendor selling roasted pangolin, with two roasted white-bellied tree pangolin for sale. They also found a new population of Togo Slippery Frog and are trying to determine who owns the land. There was at least one tadpole. That's all they have claimed in the last few days.
 
Chlidonias said:
No zoos have Togo slippery frogs. They are critically endangered, and in general Conraua species do not do well in captivity (Conraua is the goliath frog genus). The "conservation effort in the USA", I suspect, is him selling them into private trade.
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Since April 2016, one very well-known USA zoo has maintained Togo Slippery Frogs.
At least 2 well-known USA zoos (other than San Diego) are currently keeping Tree Pangolins, and there have been births to females which were pregnant when imported.
However, it seems clear that these zoos - at least for now - don't wish to shout this information from the rooftops. I don't like the amount of secrecy that seems to pervade parts of the zoo world, but perhaps they have their reasons.
 
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MikeG said:
Since March 2016, one very well-known USA zoo has maintained Togo Slippery Frogs.
At least 2 well-known USA zoos (other than San Diego) are currently keeping Tree Pangolins, and there have been births to females which were pregnant when imported.
However, it seems clear that these zoos - at least for now - don't wish to shout this information from the rooftops. I don't like the amount of secrecy that seems to pervade parts of the zoo world, but perhaps they have their reasons.
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But did these animals come from this guy? I didn't know about the frogs but I was under the impression that the pangolins were imported separate from him.

~Thylo:cool:
 
ThylacineAlive said:
But did these animals come from this guy?
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Well, the 'Pangolin Conservation' website says "We've already carried out and are stepping up an ex-situ program to secure this species [Togo Slippery Frog] in zoological facilities across the USA, as a 'backup' in case our other efforts fail."
And at the same time, 1 USA zoo is confirmed as recently having acquired the species.
Could be coincidence...but my instinct says probably not.
 
C. derooi, have been state-side for a few years. They've been sold to private hobbyists, and some have failed while others have succeeded.
 
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