Its also worth noting that Chester's mature bull Quinto has only two offspring- the two younger females at Chester- so he isn't overrepresented as yet. However, Quinto & Pangani came originally(i think) from Zurich Zoo and I don't know about the genetic representation of that line as a whole...
Port Lympne Wild Animal Park Port Lympne black rhino
- Thread starter Kifaru Bwana
- Start date
Re Yassa: Most continental eastern black rhino are of the Berlin Zoo, Dvur Kralove and Zuerich lines. Most combinations possible between these 3 major breeding lines already exist. Magdeburg Zoo's separate line is somewhat represented in the Berlin and Dvur lines.
The Chester/London/Port Lympne line is entirely separate to the continental line. Only 2 individuals have been sent from the UK to the continent (bull Parky to Zuerich - without siring offspring - and bull Mweru to Dvur - now proven with 1 Dvur cow).
A greater representation of the Chester/London/Port Lympne line into continental Europe is needed. I think that is 1 task the current EEP Species Coordinator Mark Pilgrim needs to take up in earnest.
However, in order to expand the breeding possibilities new unrelated males ex the SSP need to be integrated as soon as possible. I know that negotiations are currently under way for 1 bull to come to Europe (no indication from which SSP collection nor where the bull is going.
Given the heavy surplus in SSP collections bull wise and the possible new breeding lines they bring with them, it will improve the genetic status of the growing EEP population.
Both the more frequent integration of UK animals into the continental population with a complimentary import of 2-3 new unrelated bulls ex SSP will greatly improve the genetic make-up of the population.
This also given the fact that the growing EEP population is expected to make an important contribution to reintroduction efforts in both Kenya and Tanzania for the eastern black rhino. The space freed up by sending surplus well represented eastern black rhino to reintroduction projects in Kenya and Tanzania will free up space to absorb new individuals in the continental population.
Re Pertinax: Quinto is a half-sibling to Pangani. So their calf is somewhat inbred.
Re WrithedHornbill: the ISIS figures for Chester Zoo have been incorrect for over 1 year. It should read 3.4 individuals (bulls Quinto, Sammy and Magadi and cows Rosie, Kitani, Manyara and Ema). Easy adding up those it? Really a problem for the data clean up campaign under ZIMS .........
If I forgot any further queries by you all, please ... forgive us! Just mention it again and I will get onto it.
The Chester/London/Port Lympne line is entirely separate to the continental line. Only 2 individuals have been sent from the UK to the continent (bull Parky to Zuerich - without siring offspring - and bull Mweru to Dvur - now proven with 1 Dvur cow).
A greater representation of the Chester/London/Port Lympne line into continental Europe is needed. I think that is 1 task the current EEP Species Coordinator Mark Pilgrim needs to take up in earnest.
However, in order to expand the breeding possibilities new unrelated males ex the SSP need to be integrated as soon as possible. I know that negotiations are currently under way for 1 bull to come to Europe (no indication from which SSP collection nor where the bull is going.
Given the heavy surplus in SSP collections bull wise and the possible new breeding lines they bring with them, it will improve the genetic status of the growing EEP population.
Both the more frequent integration of UK animals into the continental population with a complimentary import of 2-3 new unrelated bulls ex SSP will greatly improve the genetic make-up of the population.
This also given the fact that the growing EEP population is expected to make an important contribution to reintroduction efforts in both Kenya and Tanzania for the eastern black rhino. The space freed up by sending surplus well represented eastern black rhino to reintroduction projects in Kenya and Tanzania will free up space to absorb new individuals in the continental population.
Re Pertinax: Quinto is a half-sibling to Pangani. So their calf is somewhat inbred.
Re WrithedHornbill: the ISIS figures for Chester Zoo have been incorrect for over 1 year. It should read 3.4 individuals (bulls Quinto, Sammy and Magadi and cows Rosie, Kitani, Manyara and Ema). Easy adding up those it? Really a problem for the data clean up campaign under ZIMS .........
If I forgot any further queries by you all, please ... forgive us! Just mention it again and I will get onto it.
1. Chester's group is linked to the continentals via Quinto and his two daughters...
2. Do you think the Zurich line is heavily represented and that Quinto would be better staying where he is? If not, what should happen for him?
1. Fine. But I meant that most Chester Zoo stock is derived from the old London/Whipsnade stock (and similar in development to most of the Port Lympne herd).
2. The Zuerich Zoo line is not heavily, but well represented, if only on the bull side. The cows still have much potential for breeding.
Bull Quinto is Chester's proven heir. Proven bull Kifaru II at Hannover Zoo is of early Zuerich stock (first import including the US born male from Chicago Brookfield). Bull Ursoni at Krefeld is a latter day Zuerich born proven.
The cows are: Siwa at Pont Scorff Zoo (a proven breeder twice with her halfbrother at Dortmund (now the breeding bull at Krefeld Zoo) and Wanda at Zuerich Zoo (the last born still at Zuerich and forming a trio with Samira from Hannover and proven bull Jimm ex Dvur.
The only ex London/Whipsnade rhino at Chester now is 'Rosie.'
In fact she is now the ONLY representative of the London/Whipsnade line within the EEP. So, it is damn important that she breed, either in the natural order (by proven Quinto) of things or by artificial means (AI her using sperm from Quinto).
Port Lympne have loaned out all their original rhino of the London/Whipsnade line. Theirs is a mix of Port Lympne's original trio (1.2 and their offspring) with 0.2 cows from Dvur Kralove and 1.1 from Addo N.P. (bull Gareth Edwards/Addo is no more), South Africa (the out of range herd since transferred out to Thaba to make way for south-western black rhinos ex Namibia). Plus an assorted mix of just the once breeders in bull Jos (ex Dvur) and bull Mwaniki (ex Cincinnati via Sydney).
1. Yes, I agree its very important they breed from 'Rosie' - I think it would have to be AI now...
2. So Mwakini has one offspring at Port Lympne? sex and mother?
3. Howletts/PL original bull Baringo was zoo-bred at Dublin, his grandparents were the breeding pair 'Willie' and Stephanie' at the Bristol zoo, they were the first black rhinos I ever saw... Paignton's calf is descended from them too.
2. So Mwakini has one offspring at Port Lympne? sex and mother?
3. Howletts/PL original bull Baringo was zoo-bred at Dublin, his grandparents were the breeding pair 'Willie' and Stephanie' at the Bristol zoo, they were the first black rhinos I ever saw... Paignton's calf is descended from them too.
So what has happened to her brother KataKata, sent from Chester to France... is he dead, if so why?
2.: Mwaniki has sired 1 or possibly even the 2 calves with Vuyu and Ruaha (he was mated in 2005 to both successfully). I am not sure regarding which or what. Will check with my rhino adopter's scheme!
France: Bull Katakata (born 1990) still resides at Parc Zoologique des Minieres in Doue la Fontaine. The current total is 2.1 (another ISIS inaccuracy and inconsistency regarding data). The other bull is young Jeremi (born 2000) ex Dvur Kralove and young female Binti ex Berlin Zoo (born 2003)
In fact she is now the ONLY representative of the London/Whipsnade line within the EEP. So, it is damn important that she breed, either in the natural order (by proven Quinto) of things or by artificial means (AI her using sperm from Quinto).
'KataKata' is Rosie's fullbrother so she's not quite the only rep of the old London/Whipsnade line within EEP...
Affirmative. I forgot him in the equation. The bad omen is that both Rosie and Katakata have demonstrated themselves to be non-breeders till now!
This in contrast to the legendary bull Bwana Kidogo (born 1991) who has gone on to become the prime breeding bull in Thaba sanctuary in South Africa where he was sent on permanent loan in 2004 (the trade off has been 2.1 unrelated individuals entering the EEP ex Addo NP in South Africa). The females Tana (born 1998) and Kivu (born 1998) have gone to the same sanctuary and both bred within the year.
I also found out that Nakuru (born 1989) and Magadi (born 1990) share the London/Whipsnade breeder Bwana M'Kubwa as their sire. So, both in part are of the London/Whipsnade line and in part one of the original Lympne female breeders.
'Nakuru' is Bwana M'Kubwa x Rukwa. She is continuing BM's line at Port Lympne.
First 'Magadi' was BM x Naivasha (same as Bwana Kidogo) but he died at a few weeks old.
Magadi 2nd(the one at Chester) is Addo x Naivasha.
BM's original mate at Whipsnade was Mama Kidogo. They bred together at 3 different locations( something of a record in itself?) 1. 5 calves at Whipsnade, none of which survive now, then 2. Rosie in London and finally 3. KataKata after moving to Port Lympne. Mama Kidogo's only living offspring are Rosie and KataKata. I'm more hopeful KataKata(rather than Rosie) might breed in future..
At Whipsnade 1.2 was the breeding set up. Bull Bwana M'Kubwa alternating between both zoos and breeding to either female. All individuals were subsequently sent to Port Lympne to augment their breeding herd and went on to breed there (early 1990's).
I am not as sure as you are on KataKata. He had been at Chester Zoo for quite a long while and yet never managed the interest of the females (Emma, Rosie, Kitani). I remain sceptical .... (I hope managers will initiate a programme of manual semen collection with him to retain his genes for the EEP).
In the Doue Zoo KataKata has still several years to wait before Binti is mature enough to breed. I rather think the Dvur bull will be the more able one in that respect.
Originally there was a pair at London- Paul & June, and a pair at Whipsnade- Bwana Mkubwa & Mama Kidogo. After London's Paul died (he fathered June's first two calves) they moved Bwana between the two zoos from then on for breeding until they eventually sent all three to Port Lympne.
Regarding KataKata- I'm not confident he will breed either- as you say he didn't do so at Chester- but I feel perhaps he has a better chance of naturally mating than 'Rosie' does.
You witnessed the demise of Black Rhino keeping at Whipsnade... I suspect they won't keep them again.
The final pair were Quinto(came from Chester and now back there) and Saya(from Berlin) Saya was obtained to replace Emma (born at Chester) who was at Whipsnade many years but never bred there. Saya died quite soon after arrival, leaving Quinto as Whipsnade's last Black rhino- his move back to Chester was shown on one of the Zoovet/Supervets TV series.
I believe the Gaur now live in that house and paddock...
The final pair were Quinto(came from Chester and now back there) and Saya(from Berlin) Saya was obtained to replace Emma (born at Chester) who was at Whipsnade many years but never bred there. Saya died quite soon after arrival, leaving Quinto as Whipsnade's last Black rhino- his move back to Chester was shown on one of the Zoovet/Supervets TV series.
I believe the Gaur now live in that house and paddock...
The bare paddocks at Whipsnade were always a less ideal set up for black rhino breeding. Nonetheless, they managed to breed from Bwana Kidogo and June and Mama Kidogo at London Zoo. Exhibit wise they deserved better. Hard standing for this species is very important, so are logs and boulders, a wallow and a large expansive separation area.
I am yet convinced that it was a mistake to stop keeping black rhinos at Whipsnade. If they would have invested in proper exhibits for a male/female pairing (they would now have a breeding pair on the same level as Paignton Zoo).
Even at London Zoo, I guess the implacable Rosie was a real miss(er). If bulll Jos had been kept with a more compatible cow he would have bred long ago and Regent's Park would have kept on the tradition (in an enlarged exhibit for ONLY black rhino (when the elephant cows were fairly and squarely moved out to Whipsnade)!
I am yet convinced that it was a mistake to stop keeping black rhinos at Whipsnade. If they would have invested in proper exhibits for a male/female pairing (they would now have a breeding pair on the same level as Paignton Zoo).
Even at London Zoo, I guess the implacable Rosie was a real miss(er). If bulll Jos had been kept with a more compatible cow he would have bred long ago and Regent's Park would have kept on the tradition (in an enlarged exhibit for ONLY black rhino (when the elephant cows were fairly and squarely moved out to Whipsnade)!
The irony is that the Whipsnade Black rhinos WERE eventually moved to a much larger paddock- near the Giraffe House. But by that time the breeders (BM & MK) had already left the park..
The rhinos lived in the larger paddock (+ basic house) for about the last fifteen years. They were (from memory);
1.KataKata & Emma, (then KataKata exchanged for Quinto)
2.Quinto & Emma (until Emma died)
3.Quinto & Saya (obtained from Berlin, she died quite quickly)
4 Quinto.(sent back to Chester)
Its sad that none of these four animals were able to breed- 'Quinto' was proven but nothing happened here. Otherwise no doubt Whipsnade would still be keeping them....
Upali
Well-Known Member
Kingo has returned to Port Lympne!! More baby rhinos...hopefully
Howletts and Port Lympne - A day out in kent and adopt an animal - Press Item
Howletts and Port Lympne - A day out in kent and adopt an animal - Press Item
