Possible big cat kill?

Ellis Daw did let lose two exotic cats, both puma, from when he owned the run-down Dartmoor Park, Ellis being against all people who brought in rules, he did write in a personal letter saying that he had no option to let the two cats out as he could not afford the food nor implement any of the rules that the local authourity held against him.
As for the deer carcase being found, with certain folk from the BBCS being present, and from Warwickshire University. Very strange indeed how just a week before that there was other press stories where a said-big cat was out there and certain people believe it to be so, once these stories broke and the amount of rubbish that certain folk said and then questioned that there is no DNA held of any such big cat roaming free or breeding wild within the UK. It's very odd, strange to see just a week or less, that a deer is killed and DNA is being sought?
I would may be question very deeply the motives of the BBCS and other Cryptozoology/cat groups have in this? Could such a deer carcase be taken from a near-by zoo or zoological park, half eaten from the cat collection held, then taken to the said spot, then within half an hour, have these people all over it, shouting: we have a big cat?....odd how Rick Minter, smirked when interviewed by the BBC news, then said that the deer carcase was very warm, no more than 30 min's dead, and said that the marks on the rear end and stomach which was almost gone, was that done by a big cat?...mmmmmm I think not!
One news paper was quoted saying that a skull found by a 14 year old boy found a puma skull back in 2005?...sorry but that is a press or other error. This was the story of Dougie Richardson who went onto say (who first thought it was an exotic cat that was indeed roaming free, which he then recanted and was then found out to be from a rug, with knife marks and an egg case of a creature that was from warmer climates), and it was 1995, not 2005!

Many a person sites the 1976 Dangerous Animals Act as the reason why such cats are seen. Sorry, bogus nonsense. Think....to find one cat free is difficult if not impossible. But to find many, of the same genus and of a sex and maturity ready for breeding, sorry but common sense and Occum's razor applies, and there are no such big cats free let alone breeding. There has been stories saying that such cats were seen on the Outer Isles of Scotland which is so daft that it does begger belief. Same for why is it that most people say they have seen big black cats and call them black panthers?.....daft and so odd. There has been the odd small cat that escaped from a collection, cought or ran over etc, but to say that there are so many big cats roaming free within the whole UK, its daft and rubbish. Just because there are 2000 plus so-called sightings does not mean that there are 2000 plus big cats out there. Sorry but what the brain and eyes think its seen is not always the truth, its a form called scotopia, well known. The brain makes up the rest to make the jigsaw fit, but that does not mean it real...10 or 2000 people see something, each see or should see something different and yet each sorty is so alike. Sorry but I just dont buy into this nonsense..!
 
Arizona Docent said:
Are you referring to the book? I read it when it first came out and I do not remember this.
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Chapter 3, 'The First Days' (page 79 in the Harper paperback edition)

Driving... to the park from Plymouth station at about 11.30 at night..., I slowed down just outside the village where the road narrows and is banked by stone walls, five to six feet high, backed by woodland. The problem seemed to be a deer in the headlights, leaning over the wall about twenty feet away, looking like it might be about to jump. Deer are silly enough to jump in front of a moving car, so I stopped to see what it was going to do. It was then that all three of us noticed simultaneously that it wasn't a deer. It was a puma. Human visual response works initially on a template system, drawing up a 2.5-D sketch based on the available evidence, then finding a suitable template from the huge store in your brain based on your previous experience, and the likelihood of a match within the context, which is why I'd thought the brown animal ahead was a deer. That is how many illusions and 'tricks of the eye' work, eliciting the wrong template until your more detailed double-take sorts out what is going on. In this instance, the double take took less than a couple of seconds, during which the harmless deer morphed into a muscle-bound, round-headed, cat-eared puma, including a distinctive grey dusting on the reddish coat which deer do not have. 'It's a ----ing puma' we all said, more or less together, and then it vanished into the woods. We burst out of the car and ran to the spot where it had been, in time to hear it padding off (not clip clopping like a deer) into the undergrowth.
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He goes on to mention that other people had seen puma or signs of the cats including on the zoo site and that

...the males come in off the moor to visit our females when they are in season (last sighting on the park in 2003)...
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Just remember that the big cat groups such as the BBCS did use Dartmoor Park and Ellis Daw as a base, Ellis did on many occassion say and publish within the local press that cats were heard and seen, even coming up to his cats that he kept....Truth be told, sorry, but a big tall story, and one just to get the public etc to buy into it, more so, why has there always been fuzzy, rubbish photo's and film footage given, always anicdotal evidence, people saying they have puma or panther cubs in their garden, or that numerous African trackers failed to find one shred of evidence or why numerous American big game money people came, but within two days left?...Answer, because there are NO big cats frre or breeding within the UK. ;)
 
bigcat speciali said:
Many a person sites the 1976 Dangerous Animals Act as the reason why such cats are seen. Sorry, bogus nonsense. Think....to find one cat free is difficult if not impossible. But to find many, of the same genus and of a sex and maturity ready for breeding, sorry but common sense and Occum's razor applies, and there are no such big cats free let alone breeding. There has been stories saying that such cats were seen on the Outer Isles of Scotland which is so daft that it does begger belief. Same for why is it that most people say they have seen big black cats and call them black panthers?.....daft and so odd. There has been the odd small cat that escaped from a collection, cought or ran over etc, but to say that there are so many big cats roaming free within the whole UK, its daft and rubbish. Just because there are 2000 plus so-called sightings does not mean that there are 2000 plus big cats out there. Sorry but what the brain and eyes think its seen is not always the truth, its a form called scotopia, well known. The brain makes up the rest to make the jigsaw fit, but that does not mean it real...10 or 2000 people see something, each see or should see something different and yet each sorty is so alike. Sorry but I just dont buy into this nonsense..!
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Well argued piece which neatly sums up the main reasons why I, though interested in "cryptozoology", have never really believed in the hypothesis of "big cats" living wild in the UK.
 
Hi
I am a serving police officer in the north Scotland in a roads policing team (or traffic division as it was known), for the past 20 years. My area is vast covering over 1500 square miles. On two seperate occasions whilst on duty i witnessed a large cat in the early hours of the morning, the two locations were within 8 miles but each sighting was eight years apart.

I cannot say is was a total suprise as colleagues had commented on sightings by them selves and others.

Local gamekeepers speake of estsates in the past having manageries, before the first world war.... including big cats.... With all the men volenteering and going off to war, the estsates having no one to take of the care animals or any food to feed them they were released.
 
jez said:
Hi
I am a serving police officer in the north Scotland in a roads policing team (or traffic division as it was known), for the past 20 years. My area is vast covering over 1500 square miles. On two seperate occasions whilst on duty i witnessed a large cat in the early hours of the morning, the two locations were within 8 miles but each sighting was eight years apart.

I cannot say is was a total suprise as colleagues had commented on sightings by them selves and others.

Local gamekeepers speake of estsates in the past having manageries, before the first world war.... including big cats.... With all the men volenteering and going off to war, the estsates having no one to take of the care animals or any food to feed them they were released.
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Despite many eye witness statements over the years, many from police, many from other professions, not one can be verified as definitive proof nor fact based. One of the best waste of time effors of recent, was when numerous calls came in that a big cat was seen on a rail line, after the police copter went up, it was then seen after viewing via the monitor's infrared that no heat source was given and yet there was what seemed to be a large tiger. The blades of the copter blew away the stuffed soft toy..and for what?, what cost, and to who's amusement?
Many animals were indeed brought back from many campaigns, from the Zulu wars to that of the Indian, and Arab days, to that of both wars. It is a well known fact, and one can check through the National War Museum, that gamekeepers, they were prized men among the first war, more so than most, as they were first class shots and very very prized folk. Many men especially from many parts of Scotland and even England were taken away from the villages, some villages lost all their men. However, women, the younger lads and the lower classes of that time, they were used in many ways to make the farms and estates work, thus helping the war effort. One only has to look of the lumber gills of WW2, or the land girls to see how the people coped, thus the argument about menageries being left to fend alone is one of not truth and a long and tall story...........
ABC's, big cats or what ever you wish to call them, there are none roaming free or breeding within the UK, so lets all use some common sense here, after all....the only big cats in the UK are the fat cats who rob us of our wages and banks etc!
 
jez said:
Hi
On two seperate occasions whilst on duty i witnessed a large cat in the early hours of the morning, the two locations were within 8 miles but each sighting was eight years apart.

I cannot say is was a total suprise as colleagues had commented on sightings by them selves and others.
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No disrespect to any of the parties involved (I wouldn't want to upset a traffic officer:)) but isn't eye witness evidence generally regarded as poor quality evidence?

jez said:
Local gamekeepers speake of estsates in the past having manageries, before the first world war.... including big cats.... With all the men volenteering and going off to war, the estsates having no one to take of the care animals or any food to feed them they were released.
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This is intriguing to me (more from an historic than an evidence perspective), but sounds largely like "urban (country?) myth" -does anyone have any hard evidence to back this claim up (that many estates had menageries with big cats pre WW1)? My major issue with this is that pre WW1 the big cats available would have been predominantly Lions and Tigers, species that hardly ever appear in big cat sightings.

I'm sorry but the concept seems to be an explanation manufactured to match evidence in the same way that some people believe alien space craft are what's behind UFO's. An opinion that people are entitled to but not one I subscribe to.
 
bigcat speciali said:
Could such a deer carcase be taken from a near-by zoo or zoological park, half eaten from the cat collection held, then taken to the said spot,
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Roe Deer are only rarely found in Zoos/wildlife parks as they tend not to prosper in captivity. Any Roe deer used in such a 'trick' would more likely have to be found as a road kill first, when it would obviously have other injuries too. Quite a complicated deception to arrange.
 
Pertinax said:
Roe Deer are only rarely found in Zoos/wildlife parks as they tend not to prosper in captivity. Any Roe deer used in such a 'trick' would more likely have to be found as a road kill first, when it would obviously have other injuries too. Quite a complicated deception to arrange.
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Thanks for that piece of information that I was unaware of. I too considered the possibility that this could have been fed to a captive cat (would this have been fed live considering the puncture marks on the neck?) and then placed at 'the scene of the crime' afterwards. Personally I am still not sure what to think of this whole incident. Guess we will have to wait until the DNA results are out.
 
Mr T said:
I too considered the possibility that this could have been fed to a captive cat (would this have been fed live considering the puncture marks on the neck?) and then placed at 'the scene of the crime' afterwards. .
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If a deer was fed to a big cat it wouldn't need to be alive as even with a carcass, the Cat would probably still adopt the usual 'kill' technique - grabbing the neck to suffocate it, as its instinctive behaviour.
 
bigcat speciali said:
Ellis Daw did let lose two exotic cats, both puma, from when he owned the run-down

a 14 year old boy found a puma skull back in 2005?..... was then found out to be from a rug, with knife marks and an egg case of a creature that was from warmer climates), and it was 1995, not 2005!
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I don't know when the former owner(Ellis Daw) of Dartmoor WP let the two Pumas loose. If it is really true, it would be interesting to know if they were same sex or a pair that could have later bred. Its conceivable one or both were still alive to coincide with Mee's 2003 sighting. I can believe that they could easily survive locally in this area of low population without being detected, and would probably revisit the Park particularly if attracted by a still captive Puma (but why was one still captive if this story is correct?). I am more sceptical of the description of Pumas regularly 'coming in from the Moors' as if there is a thriving population of them.

There were also strong rumours some years ago that during the 70's(?) a butcher in Barnstaple(North Devon) released a Puma he had kept as a pet, as a result of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act coming into force. This animal may have been responsible for some of the Big cat sightings in that area- and possibly some on nearby Exmoor too?

The 1995 story sounds like a very similar, but earlier one of a 'Lion' or 'Leopard' skull that was found by boys in or by a stream on the northern side of Dartmoor, though I thought the date was considerably earlier-1980's. Maybe the same story? This was also later found to have been planted as a hoax..
 
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I have just read in todays Guardian that there are reports of another kill in the area. Have a look on the Guardian website for photos of a new carcass. It also goes on to say that DNA results from the kill we have been discussing will be released towards the end of the month....why so long for DNA results?
 
Hi Mr T, I did say that results from the carcass we have been discussing (ie the first one) will be revealed towards the end of the month, not the one from today's Guardian.

Thanks for posting the link from the paper, should be interesting to find out the results are, or should I say 'what we are told are the results'
 
It's not particularly well worded but I think the test results that are due on the Woodchester Park carcass are according to the Guardian due to be released end of this week, but the BBC article sugggests they will be released later this month.

The second carcass was found a few miles east of Woodchester park but no details of when those DNA results will be completed are mentioned, in fact reading it a third time it doesn't state that any DNA tests are being carried out on the second carcass.

2 different articles containing conflicting information I think.

I am personally looking forward to results, even though what we get told may not be true.
 
Pertinax said:
I don't know when the former owner(Ellis Daw) of Dartmoor WP let the two Pumas loose. If it is really true, it would be interesting to know if they were same sex or a pair that could have later bred. Its conceivable one or both were still alive to coincide with Mee's 2003 sighting. I can believe that they could easily survive locally in this area of low population without being detected, and would probably revisit the Park particularly if attracted by a still captive Puma (but why was one still captive if this story is correct?). I am more sceptical of the description of Pumas regularly 'coming in from the Moors' as if there is a thriving population of them.

There were also strong rumours some years ago that during the 70's(?) a butcher in Barnstaple(North Devon) released a Puma he had kept as a pet, as a result of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act coming into force. This animal may have been responsible for some of the Big cat sightings in that area- and possibly some on nearby Exmoor too?

The 1995 story sounds like a very similar, but earlier one of a 'Lion' or 'Leopard' skull that was found by boys in or by a stream on the northern side of Dartmoor, though I thought the date was considerably earlier-1980's. Maybe the same story? This was also later found to have been planted as a hoax..
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I do believe back in 2002 Ellis Daw was discharged from Court for keeping and breeding, and housing tigers in a disgraceful manner, and not having a licence to keep them. Back in 2006 he had lions and tigers, and he went on the record saying that if he can not find a buyer then he will let the animal free. He was a very odd fellow, deeply eccentric and always being brought to task buy South Hams Dist. Council, even CAPS tried to close him down, he was taken to numerous employment tribunals by staff etc, even making wild claims that back in 2005, he had potentail buyers for his park and they flew in by helicopter. Many times he was on record saying that two puma were let loose by him, as he could not afford to keep or feed them. Given that Ben Mee never aquaired the DWP until after Ellis Daw gave up on his place back in late Spring 2006, aged 77, and Ellis did make such an odd and eccentric part of the buyer at the time. When I die, I must be buried near a tree, just a stone throw away from his house, next to the park. As for Puma roaming about, may be he did let loose some puma, and may be they did come back to the park. However, its just a story and like the Bible, which is a book and a good book, but its still just a book, hence like the said puma roaming free, its just a good old fashioned story...nothing more. Its a bit strange, when the film An American Werewolf in London came out, there were many public saying that they saw wolf's and strange creatures roaming free!

The butcher of Barnstaple may also have some truth in it, but how can we know, if we or you were not there? May be he did have a pet and that pet was indeed a large cat, but then again, may be he did not!

What makes me laugh is the amount of times most people say or publish, its a black panther, I have cubs in my garden and I know what I saw? From the silly to the very far fetched. Police helicopter blows stuffed toy, after having been called because there was big cat seen, black cat seen next to railway lines - train was stopped; turned out to be someone who also placed a soft toy near a rail track...on so on. People see what they want to see, and always state: I know what I saw, I know what a big cat looks like? But do they???? May be the roe deer was attacked by dogs, or a dog, may be the deer was from a local animal rescue centre, who knows? But I do feel that certain so-called big cat research groups out there have other motives at hand.

Many a time, people have said...sheep torn to bits, deer torn to bits, watchout as there is a big cat loose out there? Oh really...please do have some common sense! Given that many sheep or deer have either been hit by a vehicle, shot, or been taken down by dogs, or that gangs use their pit bulls etc to train them. Then the carcass is left, ripped and torn, bits of fleece here and there, paw prints, holes and marks on the body of the dead animal. Plus we then have predation from fox, crows, buzzard, general vermin and other creatures, insects and so on. How can the general public, let alone these so-called big cat expert researchers say that there are big cats doing this. Sorry but I just don't buy into this one bit. Until there is hard science, fact and sound evidence out there, this will always remain just a big old story..of wishful thinking!
So far, there are 2000 plus sightings and when the likes of the BBCS start saying that means we, the UK, must have a huge wild population of such big cats and that they are breeding, utter rubbish. Just because folk see or made reports greater than 2000 plus does not mean there is 2000 plus big cats out there. Next we will be told that Elvis is alive, is appearing at the Olympics, Santa is real and JFK never died!!!....let common sense preval and No, there are NO big cats romaing free within the UK.
Even the UK government made a 10 year study that was published and it stated that there are NO such cats, so please come on?
 
bigcat speciali said:
Just because folk see or made reports greater than 2000 plus does not mean there is 2000 plus big cats out there.
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I don't think anyone is suggesting this in the slightest. If there are cats out there then I would have thought there were very few. 2000 sightings could just mean 10 cats each one seen 200 times. However this is still a large number of sightings. I find it very hard to believe that all 2000 sightings are reliable, some maybe, but surely 2000 is too big a number for them all to be reliable. That is just my view. It is not unreasonable for them to be there. There are all sorts of non-native species out there, so why not big cats?
 
bigcat speciali said:
The butcher of Barnstaple may also have some truth in it, but how can we know, if we or you were not there?
We can't, though I am pretty sure the Barnstaple story was widely held to be true at the time.

I believe its perfectly feasible there may be individual 'Big Cats'(Puma or Leopard-size or under) occassionally at large in different parts of the countryside, as a result of such deliberate releases.

But I do not believe there are any breeding or self-sustaining populations of such cats.
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I know some species of big cats can breed to produce hybrids for example, tigons, ligers etc. From what I have found on the internet (and I accept that lots of this could be pure horse sh**) it suggested that tigers, lions, leopards, cougars and jaguars could all breed with each other. Does anyone know if this is true. If it is true then I would suggest that if there were any big cats roaming the wilds of the UK, then they would probably be hybrids.

Also people are assuming that these cats have been there for years. Is it not possible that a private owner has just decided to release his cats recently?
 
Mr T said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting this in the slightest. If there are cats out there then I would have thought there were very few. 2000 sightings could just mean 10 cats each one seen 200 times. However this is still a large number of sightings. I find it very hard to believe that all 2000 sightings are reliable, some maybe, but surely 2000 is too big a number for them all to be reliable. That is just my view. It is not unreasonable for them to be there. There are all sorts of non-native species out there, so why not big cats?
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Oh may be try reading the dribble from the British Big Cat Society or other numerous cryptozoological sites, or even the National press of last year and years before. You will find that these groups and papers such as Daily Mail say that there are 2220 sightings and others state even more. Such groups go on to state that there must be in their view huge populations roaming free and breeding wild in the UK! Yes, there are many, many non-native species of flora and fauna out there in the UK however, not big cats.

The Barnstaple story may indeed be true, just as the Harrods cats were. If it were feasable for such cats to be free within the UK, then why has no one ever hit one with a car or bus etc, shot one, seen one, had factual hard based science held on the such? The UK as whole is big but not that big, even by applying population models to topography of the UK, it still does not work. When I did nearest deer dung counts for the FC, it was seen as a science fact and well used tool, but what of the big cats, all we hear about is someone saw or heard this or that, a sheep or deer is dead and so on...not what you call hard fact and science factual evidence is it?

There is no fact no basis of proof that such cats are wild and free within the UK let alone breeding, as for hybrids..of course, you will get hybrids. However, to use such a model for the UK and for what is in all intense a story of fable and myth thus far, all one can do is hypothosise. I have never seen or came across a hybrid puma, leopard, jaguars etc, although may be there are some out there in some park. As for the UK big cats being here in the UK for years, in some cases, people state since pre-war times. Again, thats a flight of fancy. Sure there was private owners and there are still private owners even in today's UK. As for these cats meeting by chance, being of the right age, right sex and right genus...never been seen or found. Sorry, but this hypothesis fails to show ant credice let alone show that we have such so-called big cats!
 
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