Edinburgh Zoo Red River Hogs culled

[Javan Rhino]

If you read the article carefully, it looks as if this was 'leaked' rather than announced publicly in the first place. I can't see any benefit in them making this public voluntarily.

Good point, it seemed that the zoo were being open about it from the fact there are quotes from people within the zoo. However, it could be that it was leaked and the bosses are now being honest, because there is no other way to go.

The last time I checked, there was no announcement on the website or facebook from the zoo itself.

 

[Paradoxurus]

If you read the article carefully, it looks as if this was 'leaked' rather than announced publicly in the first place. I can't see any benefit in them making this public voluntarily.

I think that on the face of it this would have been a PR nightmare if it had been publicly announced. However I do feel that zoos should be entirely open about how they operate. This would avoid any potential for exposes. Continental zoos are completely open about culling surplus stock and feeding it back to their carnivores. This is how it has always been whilst British zoos keep getting spotted behind their facade as has happened here.

 

[sooty mangabey]

...and meanwhile I'm sure the zoo restaurant sells sausages made from pigs which have been 'culled' after a much less pleasant existence than that of these red river hogs.

Yes, I like to see big groups. But I don't like to see animals suffering because they're over-crowded. And I don't think the impossibility of placing young elsewhere is a reason to prevent breeding: that breeding is vital behavioural enrichment, after all. I'd far rather a young animal was humanely culled rather than sent out to a substandard zoo. QV the recent discussion from Borth Animalarium, where its shoddy facilities were justified because otherwise the animals would be dead. So, reluctantly, I'd say that culling probably is the right answer. And yes, the public will object. But then the public is hypocritical, sentimental, ignorant and easily manipulated.

 

[TARZAN]

Well, the culling was leaked, was it? ,just like a few years ago at Edinburgh when they built their new Asian lion enclosure, problem being under the rules they were not allowed to house Asiatic lions whilst they still had an African on the premises, solution , kill the African lioness then Asian lions can come. Fortunately for the lioness this was leaked to the press before this animal was disposed of, outcome, outcry by the public, lioness then allowed to live out her life and maned wolves placed in the Asian lion enclosure until the lioness died. Forgive me for being suspicious but if dear old Mercedes had not been so high profile would it not have been easier for her to pass away in the night rather than going to the trouble and expense of building her a new home at the Highland Wildlife Park? , then all the sick bloodthirsty weirdos could watch her being dissected on Inside Natures Giants just like poor Crumple the elephant from Blackpool.

 

[Fergie]

Up until last year, Edinburgh kept 4 red river hogs in this enclosure. Did they then not send the elderly/non-reproductive pair to Yorkshire Wildlife Park to allow the younger pair to begin breeding?

 

[Maguari]

then all the sick bloodthirsty weirdos could watch her being dissected on Inside Natures Giants just like poor Crumple the elephant from Blackpool.

'Sick, bloodthirsty weirdos'? Seriously?

How do you think we ever learned about animals' internal anatomy (and that includes human anatomy)? Scientific dissection is not 'sick' - it's a vital research and educational tool. The 'Inside Nature's Giants' programme is a wonderful way of getting zoological science to a mass audience and, as far as I'm aware, none of the animals used were killed/euthanased for that purpose. Why not make use of the bodies of the deceased animals to increase public awareness and maybe educate folks a little?



And, although I don't think we (certainly I) know enough about the specifics of the Edinburgh case, I would broadly agree with sooty mangabey that I'd rather animals were humanely euthanased than have their welfare jeopardised. Whether that would have been the case in this instance I'm not sure.

 

[adamntitch]

a few more bits here some daft some ok

Google


http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Zoo-culls-39surplus39-hogs.6590526.jp

also read the edinburgh evening news comments some companys are stopping there surport to the zoo

 

[TARZAN]

Regarding the Edinburgh Evening News comments, there was not one comment in favour of the zoos action. How sad that a member visitor when enquiring about the piglets whereabouts was informed by an uncomfortable looking keeper that they had died. I have always enjoyed visiting Edinburgh Zoo, living in the North East it is the nearest proper zoo and I have always encouraged friends and colleagues to visit when they are thinking about going, on their return their comments are usually positive apart from the usual no elephants, the hill is a bit steep. I have found the improvements and changes made in recent years encouraging, in particular the new chimp exhibit, which in my opinion must rank as possibly the best zoological exhibit in the country. Hopefully the zoo can learn from this sad episode, it is correct that they should abide by rules, however if the rules are morally wrong and unacceptable to the zoo going public then perhaps the rules should be changed, it is after all the zoo going public who pay at the door and thus financing these great zoological institutions of ours. Hopefully Edinburgh Zoo can put their troubles behind them and look forward to their centenary year in 2013 with optimism.

 

[johnstoni]

What is the point of an EEP for a non-endangered species? To preserve a limited supply of a sought-after public display animal in Europe? If there is such a lack of space better offered to more endangered species, why on earth are non-endangered species maintained? Why not just cull them all if there is a lack of 'cage space', rather than perpetuate this hypocritical, remote, fascistic approach to 'conservation'.

Is this really what it has come to? Such a lack of autonomy over your stock that you are told to kill healthy animals and you just have to go right along with it? I repeat, what is the point of this species even being managed as an EEP?

While I am not aware of the experience of other people posting on here, the previous poster makes a good point. Anyone who is or has been a keeper will know that when you work at a public collection, you are the one who is asked the difficult questions, not the curator, not the collection manager, but the keepers.

 

[sooty mangabey]

Regarding the Edinburgh Evening News comments, there was not one comment in favour of the zoos action.

But we all know that people's attitude towards animals is irrational, sentimental and il-informed. Don't we?

What is so sad here? It's a couple of animals, not needed, which are being humanely culled. They would know nothing about it. The same thing happens millions of times every day, in far less pleasant circumstances, to domestic pigs (and cows and sheep and goats and so on). If zoo keepers object to this sort of thing, they shouldn't be working in a zoo. And this whole whipping up of a fervour in the Scottish press is just absurd.

The lion business is a perfect illustration of the absurdity here. Was it really 'humane' to keep a solitary, ageing lion? Would it not have been far better for the animal to have been put to sleep, once her role was completed?

In so many ways Scotland is a far more sensible place than England. But here, they too are infested by bunny-huggers. Not Good.

 

[johnstoni]

...and meanwhile I'm sure the zoo restaurant sells sausages made from pigs which have been 'culled' after a much less pleasant existence than that of these red river hogs.

Yes, I like to see big groups. But I don't like to see animals suffering because they're over-crowded. And I don't think the impossibility of placing young elsewhere is a reason to prevent breeding: that breeding is vital behavioural enrichment, after all. I'd far rather a young animal was humanely culled rather than sent out to a substandard zoo. QV the recent discussion from Borth Animalarium, where its shoddy facilities were justified because otherwise the animals would be dead. So, reluctantly, I'd say that culling probably is the right answer. And yes, the public will object. But then the public is hypocritical, sentimental, ignorant and easily manipulated.

What I suspected is stated in the scotsman, for what that is worth. It is not that there is an 'impossibility' in rehoming, its that someone in Duisburg has decided that this isn't allowed. Its not as if Borth was on the cards.

Furthermore, if there is really a case for this kind of management, why not cull some surplus bull elephants or male gorillas? No? So where's the line, and why, and who gets to draw that line?

Of course the zoo sells meat products from domestic pigs. They are not 'culled', they are bred and reared specifically for slaughter and are not ever shown in a different context. Breeding for culling shows no respect for life, and I actually think the public are smart enough to make the distinction on ethical grounds.

 

[Pertinax]

I would broadly agree with sooty mangabey that I'd rather animals were humanely euthanased than have their welfare jeopardised. Whether that would have been the case in this instance I'm not sure.

I did suggest a long list of UK zoos(above) which don't currently keep this species, all or most of which I presume are EAZA members so would not be considered as substandard. While none of them might be in an immediate position to have taken these surplus, it still seems to me a pity none of them could have done so in the future.

Longerterm what does the future now hold for all the other reproducing pairs of Red River Hogs(even the genetically valuable ones if there are any) where space is an issue. Will they all be euthanasing piglets as a matter of course, or will the adults be prevented from producing these unwanted litters? It seems that this species has become an overly successful breeder in recent years and has now created a problem as a result.

 

[johnstoni]

The lion business is a perfect illustration of the absurdity here. Was it really 'humane' to keep a solitary, ageing lion? Would it not have been far better for the animal to have been put to sleep, once her role was completed?

If it was assessed that her quality of life would not be sufficient, then yes, it would have been the right thing to do IMO. Was it not however out of convenience to allow the zoo to participate in the Asiatic lion EEP?

I think when Bristol put its last polar bears to sleep, it was the right thing to do. If I became aware that a development of the enclosure was scheduled prior to this, I would then mistrust the integrity of any decision to euthanase and think it compromised my other agendas.

 

[Goretex]

Clearly people are feeling very differnetly about all of this. And to be honest I'm against this move.

They should have tryed to get them sent to a differnet collection that wants a non-breeding pair. There's more to animals than just breeding. Should they have put Rajang down when it was discovered he was a hybred? I'll leave you to answer that if you wish.

 

[Gentle Giant]

I don’t understand why RZSS announce their culled animals in the past like wolves, antelopes etc, why don’t other zoos do the same?

To maximise available variety, selective breeding considerations will have to take precedence over everything else in the social life of the zoo specimens. Fertile pairs cannot be allowed to continue breeding freely at will, lest they unbalance the gene-pool. Contraception will be needed, and whether it is done by segregation, by hormone treatment, by vasectomy or by death it will have socially disturbing consequences.
Again, where breeding is successful, there will simply be more animals than the zoo in question can afford to keep. Not all of them can be passed on to other zoos, if their habitat is still unfit to receive them, they are at present (like other surplus animals in zoos) either quietly killed or – still more disturbingly – passed on to research institutions for experimentation.

 

[Pertinax]

But here, they too are infested by bunny-huggers. Not Good.

I'm no bunny hugger, I can assure you. I have no problem with zoos putting down elderly animals, or surplus males e.g. ungulate calves, or even 'difficult' animals (e.g. bad mixers) IF no other suitable homes can be found for them. But allowing a non-endangered species like this to breed on the officially agreed terms the young will then be destroyed just doesn't seem right to me. They're not being produced for food- or for any purpose at all.

 

[RowanGreen]

Regarding the Edinburgh Evening News comments, there was not one comment in favour of the zoos action.

I think you were reading a different set of quotes to me... Seems quite a few people didn't think it was such a big deal and no worse than eating meat (lots of bacon butty jokes...)

In particular this post by Simon McG is interesting:

"Breed and cull" as it is called is a practice that is carried out in zoos worldwide.
So many zoos have red river hogs, also known as bush pigs, that the captive population is at or very near capacity which makes rehoming ver difficult. As the article says it was the studbook keeper who reccommended culling. This happens more with male animals thatn females. Keeping groups of males can be frought with problems, not least violence towards each other. This is why zoos try to replicate as near natural groupings as possible.
Using contraceptive implants with pig type species can cause health problems with the females, just as not allowing them to concieve and give birth.
Any animals culled at zoos all have to be euthanased humanely and records have to be kept of how the animal was disposed of. If chemicals were used the animal cannot be used as part of the foodchain.
If the animal was allowed to live there is always a higher risk it could be killed by another of the same species and much more violently than humane methods used in zoos.
Every birth is taken as a case by case situation and culling is always a last resort!

 

[adrian1963]

Has anyone asked Edinburgh which collections they tried to get to have the RRH or is that just media talk to cover up they didn't ask anyone?

We will never know

 

[Pertinax]

.
Any animals culled at zoos all have to be euthanased humanely and records have to be kept of how the animal was disposed of. If chemicals were used the animal cannot be used as part of the foodchain.
If the animal was allowed to live there is always a higher risk it could be killed by another of the same species and much more violently than humane methods used in zoos.

Interesting background information as to the current thinking/stance by zoos on this problem generally.

I think I would rather see these animals (RRHogs or whatever other species) killed in a way (shooting?) they could then be fed to other animals- somehow to me, breeding them does not seem so purposeless in that case. Though I still find it difficult to accept they couldn't have been rehomed, I wonder why the EEP didn't want that to happen- genetic reasons?

 

[Simon McGlary]

In particular this post by Simon McG is interesting:

Pleased someone noticed it!

As mentioned elswhere here, there could be a whole number of reasons as to why the decision to cull was taken. Interestingly, this took place back in January so to us close to the zoo it is old news. There have been more hoglets since and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they went the same way, unless it is possible for one or more to move on.

I honestly do not believe that the decision would have been taken lightly by anyone concerned and they would have been on the "surplus" list form the day they were born and the availability known of industry wide.

Edinburgh Zoo and RZSS have a policy of if asked answer honestly. If not asked don't volunteer the information. Explain the complexities in full if possible though.

In zoos the world over there are unpleasant decisions like this being taken everyday. Edinburgh is just being that bit more honest about the situation and is probably bringing the topic out for discussion!