Rare Species Conservation Centre RSCC news 2009

[Jurek7]

@Proteles
I can't comment on space, but agree that Clouded Leopards are well known to kill mates in captivity. And that the collection of rare animals is wonderful.

Especially great is that a small zoo manages to bring new threatened species into European zoos, when big zoos are stuck with a limited number of species - lions, zebras etc.

 

[ZooMania]

Visited the RSCC a few days back, dont feel the need to make a full review so just a few thoughts about it.
Brilliant animal collection of course, theres only so much criticism you can throw at a zoo with Sun Bears, Aardwolves and Rufous Hornbills. The enclosures vary in their quality, some have been treated harshly on ZooChat whilst others have perhaps been praised a bit too much by British posters.
The tropical house is really where I think the enclosures fall below par a bit, the Jaguarundi, Ocelot, Sand Cat and Binturong enclosures in particular. There was no sign of the Otters as the pool was being washed, so we definatly plan a return visit before our Kent trip is over.
The Fishing Cat enclosure is bigger than I was expecting, as is the Gibbon enclosure and the Puma/Leopard. Alongside very nicely sized enclosures for Sun Bears, Flamingoes, Lemurs and Fossa on the whole made it a good collection on the whole if judging by enclosure quality alone.

We were however the only visitors, which was suprising considering the summer holidays have started. It'd be nice to think that over time the RSCC can make the odd improvement here and there that are needed and continue to slowly became a great zoo.

 

[johnstoni]

Brilliant animal collection of course, theres only so much criticism you can throw at a zoo with Sun Bears, Aardwolves and Rufous Hornbills. QUOTE]

I disagree, although I understand your passion. I would like to think that, if Borth Animalarium or Beaver Water World (2 of the UK establishments I dislike the most) started keeping any of the above species you mention, that I would not criticise them less just because they were holding species to which I attached more importance than, say, wallabies or ring-tailed lemurs.

Did you get any idea of what's next for the RSCC?

 

[ZooMania]

Perhaps not the most suitable comment from me but you get my drift. I thought the majority of the enclosures were of a good standard anyway, bar 1 or 2 here and there.

In terms of their future, not much to report (I always feel a bit uncomftorble approching rather busy looking keepers) though there was no acess to the Pallas Cats & Black Footed Cats and the Singing Dogs have moved to Exmoor (thanks EvilKitte of informng me of this).
We are thinking of a return in the next few days since we didnt see the Otters, so might try and find a few things out.

 

[EvilKittie]

hehe nps - and another note is that the Black-Footed Cats are off-show since they have recently had a litter of kittens which were rejected and now are being hand-raised so it is to give them so privacy.

 

[DesertRhino150]

In terms of their future, not much to report (I always feel a bit uncomftorble approching rather busy looking keepers) though there was no acess to the Pallas Cats & Black Footed Cats and the Singing Dogs have moved to Exmoor (thanks EvilKitte of informng me of this).

I'm presuming that the singing dogs moving to Exmoor are just the four pups. Is this the case?

 

[EvilKittie]

I'm presuming that the singing dogs moving to Exmoor are just the four pups. Is this the case?

The whole family was moved to Exmoor, not sure if the parents will be coming back but the pups will stay.

 

[peacockpheasant]

It would be good for some of you to stop speculating and get some of your facts correct about RSCC. I personally think the collection has done well in recent breeding successes, the centre is looking better each year and a great deal of improvements have been made - it all takes time and Rome was not renovated in a day. The staff and the director in fact have a great deal of past experience with specialised animals and negative comments should not be made by individuals who do not know what they are talking about. Perhaps some of you would do a better job with the collection and facility, and could sacrifice more than the current management team??? Perhaps the points and news below will clarify the situation for you:

BALABAC CHEVROTAINS

Indeed RSCC has lost 7 animals, 5 of them died due to a copper problem in their system which in fact came from the Philippines due to diet deficiencies. And the research done has shown it was not due to the husbandry or care at RSCC. This is a tragic shame, however the next batch of animals will be pre tested before leaving so that the animals that arrive are in perfect shape. Wroclaw have a pair which came in with no issues and two offspring, the RSCC male is ok and copper levels fine so he will be paired with a young female born at Wroclaw. The program will be added to to ensure a good captive future for the species in Europe. Two of the Mouse Deer died from a toxic reaction to Brussel Sprouts not ever noted before in captivity with Chevrotains. This was very sad but can happen.

CLOUDED LEOPARD/PUMA

The Clouded Leopard killed his mate in early 2008, well before RSCC had Puma - occassionally there are often killer male Cloudies and he was sadly a nervous and highly strung cat - it had nothing to do with a mixed exhibit. He does not like being out in the daytime so that is why there are Puma in the enclosure in the day, they each have their own houses and off show exercise enclosure. The animals are in excellent condition and health and are well looked after

The site is overcrowded and that’s a fact. The staff and management lack experience that’s a fact.

Yes I know I could do a better job with the collection and im sure the one or two people on here who work in the industry are thinking the same.

Just how ignorant do you think people on this forum are? Those animals survived quarantine at Wroclaw and ALL of the animals that stayed are still alive!
Im afraid if you're going to try and defend what is clearly a case of poor husbandry with an explanation like that im going to have to see the necropsy results.

You would like to talk about whats positive about the collection? Well the poor attendance is defiantly a plus hopefully it will force Mr. Dalton to Scale back the collection to something he can manage.

Red Panda. You're arguments that proximity to large carnivores doesn’t influence behaviour in captivity are weak and misguided (“Stress” is an incredibly difficult condition to accurately evaluate with an enormous amount of variables)

Particularly you’re remarks about animals in the wild (with a little common sense surly you can reason that in the wild no animal is in an inescapable situation where they are subjected to stimuli full time??) I assure you the close proximity of large carnivores alters the behaviour of animals in captivity and while this isn’t the main issue with Cloudies it’s a factor none the less.

This is issue is beside the point. The fact is there is no room at the site to have both a puma and clouded leopard enclosure. Under these circumstances most self respecting curators would add animals to the surplus list or better yet would not have added pumas to the collection before moving the clouded leopard on.

Johnstoni again you're a voice of reason. It’s the quality of animal facilities and husbandry which makes a good collection not the scarcity of the occupants in captivity some people on here need to get a little perspective.

 

[redpanda]

Red Panda. You're arguments that proximity to large carnivores doesn’t influence behaviour in captivity are weak and misguided (“Stress” is an incredibly difficult condition to accurately evaluate with an enormous amount of variables).

Well you can insult myself and my arguments as much as you wish without giving any evidence to the contrary, but I'm afraid I give more credence to five years of behavioural observations. That's not "misguided", just listening to people who know what they're talking about, rather than those who come on this site every so often simply to inflate their ego.

Particularly you’re remarks about animals in the wild (with a little common sense surly you can reason that in the wild no animal is in an inescapable situation where they are subjected to stimuli full time??) I assure you the close proximity of large carnivores alters the behaviour of animals in captivity and while this isn’t the main issue with Cloudies it’s a factor none the less.

The fact is, this isn't an issue at all. Not only had the male cloudie killed the female before the pumas arrived at the RSCC, but before they were even born! Bumping an old thread with an argument that is, as you yourself say, "beside the point" is clearly just spoiling for a fight - get a life!

 

[peacockpheasant]

Well you can insult myself and my arguments as much as you wish without giving any evidence to the contrary, but I'm afraid I give more credence to five years of behavioural observations. That's not "misguided", just listening to people who know what they're talking about, rather than those who come on this site every so often simply to inflate their ego.

The fact is, this isn't an issue at all. Not only had the male cloudie killed the female before the pumas arrived at the RSCC, but before they were even born! Bumping an old thread with an argument that is, as you yourself say, "beside the point" is clearly just spoiling for a fight - get a life!

Bumping an old thread ?
Im sure you're only a young man but when you're using phrases such as "get a life" it doesnt endear you to your peers so at the risk of being drawn into an argument perhaps you should “grow up”?

I’d like to think that five and a half years first hand experience with the species is enough to qualify me to have a valid opinion on this ?
I know of two unpublished studies where faecal samples were collected daily for analysis for both reproductive and stress hormones. One of these studies was carried out before a move where animals were housed in proximity to Tigers and Bears and after where they were more isolated. When moved the animals concerned showed a marked decrease in cortisol levels and behaviours associated with stress in the species. One thing you learn if you get to University is that studies often contradict one another
While working in the US we had an adolescent male in quarantine which happened to be reasonably close one of the big cat holding pens. This animal would excessively self-groom which resulted in hair loss this is a classic indicator of stress in the species. When moved to its exhibit this behaviour ceased almost over night.
I know there are published works on this but I don’t have the time to dig them out.

I didn’t say it was an issue in this case. I was just replying to your opinion in your post which was based on a urine study of only two animals, and your personal views in which animals that share an environment could not possibly be stressed by being in each others presence.

 

[redpanda]

Bumping an old thread ?
Im sure you're only a young man but when you're using phrases such as "get a life" it doesnt endear you to your peers so at the risk of being drawn into an argument perhaps you should “grow up”?

Well, judging by your last post, I hardly endeared myself to you without saying anything, so I think that's rather a lost cause.

I’d like to think that five and a half years first hand experience with the species is enough to qualify me to have a valid opinion on this ?

Would you mind elabourating on this since, as you know, people can say anything they wish sitting behind a computer. If true, then perhaps you should have said this in your first post and I would have been rather more confident in your view.

I know of two unpublished studies where faecal samples were collected daily for analysis for both reproductive and stress hormones. One of these studies was carried out before a move where animals were housed in proximity to Tigers and Bears and after where they were more isolated. When moved the animals concerned showed a marked decrease in cortisol levels and behaviours associated with stress in the species. One thing you learn if you get to University is that studies often contradict one another

Indeed they do, but as Louisville's rotation is one of the most complex in the world, I am inclined to give their studies more credence.

While working in the US we had an adolescent male in quarantine which happened to be reasonably close one of the big cat holding pens. This animal would excessively self-groom which resulted in hair loss this is a classic indicator of stress in the species. When moved to its exhibit this behaviour ceased almost over night.

Interesting, though could it not have been that quarantine enclosures are generally smaller and not built with a particular species in mind, leading to stress which is not seen in the more suitable exhibit.

I know there are published works on this but I don’t have the time to dig them out.

When you do have time, I would be grateful if you could as I would be interested to read them.

I didn’t say it was an issue in this case. I was just replying to your opinion in your post which was based on a urine study of only two animals, and your personal views in which animals that share an environment could not possibly be stressed by being in each others presence.

Actually, you said "while this isn’t the main issue with Cloudies it’s a factor none the less" - my point being that it was not a factor at all.

 

[peacockpheasant]

Well, judging by your last post, I hardly endeared myself to you without saying anything, so I think that's rather a lost cause.



Would you mind elabourating on this since, as you know, people can say anything they wish sitting behind a computer. If true, then perhaps you should have said this in your first post and I would have been rather more confident in your view.



Indeed they do, but as Louisville's rotation is one of the most complex in the world, I am inclined to give their studies more credence.



Interesting, though could it not have been that quarantine enclosures are generally smaller and not built with a particular species in mind, leading to stress which is not seen in the more suitable exhibit.




When you do have time, I would be grateful if you could as I would be interested to read them.




Actually, you said "while this isn’t the main issue with Cloudies it’s a factor none the less" - my point being that it was not a factor at all.

I take a few minutes to browse the forum every so often and I have noticed how quick you are to jump on someone for having a different opinion or for something as innocuous as a spelling error. In this case I know you are wrong.

Providing you with the precise details of my employment history won’t add any more weight or provide proof of my identity so I see little point in doing so (I believe the information is out there however if you feel the need).

Why you keep citing this study at Louisville is a mystery. The sample size is so small any results could never be significant.

Actually the quarantine facility was built for Apes and if the size of the internal and external spaces are included the exhibit was of a very similar size. The animal had little human contact something which is a known contributing factor to stress while in quarantine something which changed while on exhibit so if anything we were half expecting the animals condition to decline.

I understand that you think that proximity to large carnivores does NOT cause stress in Cloudies. I honestly don’t know how you managed to form that opinion. While im certain you won’t understand much of the biology in this paper I can tell you it is highly regarded in the industry.

Wielebnowski NC, Fletchall N, Carlstead K, Busso JM, Brown JL. (2002), Non-invasive assessment of adrenal activity associated with husbandry and behavioural factors in the North American clouded leopard population. Zoo Biology 21, 77–98.


The fact remains that the Clouded leopard currently housed at RSCC is held in a less than suitable arrangement.

 

[redpanda]

I take a few minutes to browse the forum every so often and I have noticed how quick you are to jump on someone for having a different opinion or for something as innocuous as a spelling error. In this case I know you are wrong.

Well from that sentence, it would appear that I am not alone in that respect (and, for the record, I was hardly "quick to jump" on cat-man's spelling error - he asked twice for any feedback on the couple of sentences he had written and this was the only thing I could find on which to comment).

Providing you with the precise details of my employment history won’t add any more weight or provide proof of my identity so I see little point in doing so (I believe the information is out there however if you feel the need).

Then I shall have a look.

Why you keep citing this study at Louisville is a mystery. The sample size is so small any results could never be significant.

Twice is hardly me "keep citing" it, and the reason I suppose is that you are too busy to provide me with one of your better papers.

I understand that you think that proximity to large carnivores does NOT cause stress in Cloudies. I honestly don’t know how you managed to form that opinion.

Because Howletts have one of the best breeding records in the world and their animals live in close proximity to one another. And whilst cats do sometimes breed when stressed (eg. in the old feline houses), cloudies are notoriously difficult to breed in captivity suggesting that this did not bother them too much.

While im certain you won’t understand much of the biology in this paper I can tell you it is highly regarded in the industry.

Wielebnowski NC, Fletchall N, Carlstead K, Busso JM, Brown JL. (2002), Non-invasive assessment of adrenal activity associated with husbandry and behavioural factors in the North American clouded leopard population. Zoo Biology 21, 77–98.

Perhaps not, but thank you nonetheless.

 

[peacockpheasant]

Well from that sentence, it would appear that I am not alone in that respect (and, for the record, I was hardly "quick to jump" on cat-man's spelling error - he asked twice for any feedback on the couple of sentences he had written and this was the only thing I could find on which to comment).



Then I shall have a look.



Twice is hardly me "keep citing" it, and the reason I suppose is that you are too busy to provide me with one of your better papers.



Because Howletts have one of the best breeding records in the world and their animals live in close proximity to one another. And whilst cats do sometimes breed when stressed (eg. in the old feline houses), cloudies are notoriously difficult to breed in captivity suggesting that this did not bother them too much.



Perhaps not, but thank you nonetheless.

You know you could always find a paper yourself? I'd still be interested to know your opinion when you have read through the paper.

 

[Javan Rhino]

Not to get involved, but I think you two will have to agree to disagree. I have only skim-read the last few posts, but I think that it might be best all around if the arguement was dropped (of course, you are both entitled to your opinions, but arguing seems pointless because it doesn't seem as if you will sway each other: If you do wish to carry it on however maybe it will be better over PM's?). I think we should veer this topic back onto news for the centre though .

 

[Paix]

I agree with the last part of Javan Rhinos post in which "can this be moved to a pm so the thread isnt driven way off topic?

 

[Dicerorhinus]

I disagree what's wrong with healthy debate?

I was always under the impression that certain feline species were sensitive to the close proximity of "large predators" and if I'm honest thought it was widely accepted in the zoo community.

Thanks for the reference peacockpheasant it's a fascinating read and certainly supports your arguements.

 

[Javan Rhino]

I disagree what's wrong with healthy debate?

I was always under the impression that certain feline species were sensitive to the close proximity of "large predators" and if I'm honest thought it was widely accepted in the zoo community.

Thanks for the reference peacockpheasant it's a fascinating read and certainly supports your arguements.

I certainly agree that a good debate is healthy, however this is not the place for it. Maybe if a new thread was started or something, but this is specifically for news about the centre (opinions and a little debate are alright, but it just seemed as if the debate was driving the thread off the topic of actual news.

 

[Paix]

I certainly agree that a good debate is healthy, however this is not the place for it. Maybe if a new thread was started or something, but this is specifically for news about the centre (opinions and a little debate are alright, but it just seemed as if the debate was driving the thread off the topic of actual news.

I agree, and certain parts of it wasnt exactly healthy. Anywho, back on track.

 

[redpanda]

Okay, so I read the study you suggested (and understood it fine, thanks) but fail to see its relevance in this debate. It does indeed conclude that variation in fecal corticoid concentration could be the result of exposure to predators, however, the article also states that "only the visibility of predators was recorded by keepers" and gives no evidence that olfactory exposure results in stress. As the Clouded Leopards at the RSCC only have olfactory exposure to the Puma (they are in the off-show area whenever the enclosure is inhabited), why you cite THIS study is, to me, a mystery.