Edinburgh Zoo Sad at some sights in Edin Zoo

[Mr T]

That was a wee bit childish Mr T, or your a real sad ' anorak caped zoo-geek'? Let's embrace people who fairly challenge the establishments we cherish so much, pass on our accrued knowledge and spread the word that good zoos are worth supporting whilst questioning those that have to improve. 'Anal' responses like that do not help us!

Look I welcome Ginnieb to this forum and glad that they are giving there voice to the community, I am a relative newbie aswell you know. Sorry if you felt my comment was childish but I was merely asking a question. Are chimps apes or monkeys? I am still not sure because I hear lots of different people say different things. I thought they were apes but maybe I am wrong. I am not an 'anorak caped zoo-geek' I just enjoy discussing zoos and finding out about the animal kingdom.

Ginnieb is of course entitled to his view of Edinburgh zoo just as the other members are entitled to their views. It sounds as though Ginnieb has attended once (I may be wrong of course) whereas some members who are making the other comments regularly visit and have a better understanding of how the collection works and the standard behaviour of its animals.

 

[Johnny Morris.]

I'm beginning to think this forum is for people who either work in zoos or
think animals should be in zoos regardless of whether the species is endangered or not.

I personally think the educational benefits outweigh the conservational benefits of Zoos.

 

[Ginnieb]

I can't agree with you at all really. She wasn't slagging off the zoo at all as far as my interpretation goes, she was asking questions about a few specific animals or enclosures that distressed her. How would posting on tripadvisor help her at all? Surely the logical place to ask her questions is, oh I don't know, a zoo forum? And I don't really see how its an "odd" first post - what she saw at this zoo is obviously all she wanted answers about.

They all seemed reasonable enough questions to me. Maybe the panda enclosure does look small (I don't know personally, because I have never been), and if she found pictures of the large natural-looking enclosures at Wolong then its a fair enough assumption that in China pandas are kept like that. A continuously pacing leopard - why is it "slagging off the zoo" to question that? There are all sorts of reasons big cats pace in captivity but it can be distressing to watch. Bald spots on chimps - that's not natural-looking is it? The sealion - everyone here seems agreed its conditions of living are not good, but the poster obviously hasn't been reading through the forums to know it is being moved, because she just joined. The plastic plants in the hedgehog/tenrec cage, well it doesn't bother me and it probably doesn't bother the animal, but it is an aesthetic thing for her I guess, and I think her greater concern was probably the "tiny" cage. The raven issue however seems to be largely because she thinks ravens shouldn't be kept in captivity.

Basically, all these questions are exactly the sorts of things that get brought up by regular posters (just not ususally all in one lump sum).

Just my thoughts.

Thank you Chlidonias & triGB. I appreciate your posts. Chlidonias, you have understood where I am coming from completely. Especially when you re-iterated your understanding of my feelings that Ravens should not be kept in a zoo when they are still out in our forests to be seen in their natural surroundings.

Unlike some others posters who assume I am a fanatic and wet behind the ears just because I only visit a zoo once a year they assume I know nothing about animals and their body language or behaviour.

I have been to Namibia and visited the amazing Okanjima centre where they rehabiliate leopards and cheetahs for release back into the wild where possible and India where tiger programmes aim to protect and prolong the species. I am a supporter of Animals Asia - an amazing woman from the UK that rescues sun bears in China and Vietnam and does a monumental job there educating schools, hospitals and the people. I have a number of animals myself and a flock of hens with a couple of cockerels. I have also been involved in various conservation projects. There is much I don't know but there is also a lot I do know.

I know what I saw and it just didn't look good to me and it saddened me.
I thought I would get some answers here. Maybe it is the wrong place. Although some answers have helped, such as being told the seal and the leopard is to be moved. As well as having been answered, it also tells me that I was right and there was welfare issues that needed addressed and thankfully they are being addressed.

That is what is most important, I don't pertain to love or hate zoos. However I do love animals. And their welfare is uppermost.

Thank you for that bit of support and understanding!

 

[Yassa]

Chimps are apes.

 

[Maguari]

Can I just point out that the quality of a zoo doesn't improve if people keep shouting "there are far worse zoos in the UK". It bothers me that it's being mentioned as a defence.

No, but my point was that proportionally ("per actual problem", if you like) Edinburgh gets far more criticism than any other UK. I just feel a bit sorry for RZSS - they seem to get picked on for every little thing.

In fact - they get many of the same criticisms as Twycross (small primate exhibits, inadequate sea lion pool, poor use of money) except that Twycross' criticism appears to be limited to these boards and Edinburgh's is widespread and prominent - despite the fact that (in my opinion at least) Twycross' problems are much more real.

 

[Mr T]

Chimps are apes.

Thanks Yassa, that is what I thought and have believed for many years.

 

[Maguari]

I'm not sure I follow you; the problems I thought the chimps had are completely different to that of my views on the Ravens and I never compared enclosures. Of course ravens fly and if being contained would need a covered enclosure. My feeling is that I don't think ravens should be kept in captivity at all. Why should they be in a zoo when they can be still seen just as easily in the wild by all in this country? I didn't enjoy seeing this raven distressed. If truth be told, ideally I'd like to see chimps in the wild too than in a zoo.

TeaLovingDave correctly pointed out my meaning in bringing in chimps, to which you have responded so fair enough.

But let me pose another question - ould you object in the same way to ravens in a zoo in (say) Sydney - where they would be an exotic large passerine and of great interest? I personally don't think whether a species is native is relevant to whether a species is suitable to be kept in captivity.

I really didn't set out to criticise Edinburgh Zoo. That is the zoo I visited, these are the animals I saw that I felt didn't look as though their needs as individuals were catered for. I wanted to voice my concerns and ask for views. I very much appreciate views returned. What I wouldn't want to see though is defending of the zoo for the sake of it, these animals live, eat and sleep every day and night whilst we go about our own lives without restriction. The least the animals should expect is respect and care when something is not right.

I realise this, and as noted I wasn't having a go at you for the level of RZSS criticism. It's just odd that they attract so much - almost seems somewhere they're giving out the wrong signals.

 

[Yassa]

Some thoughts about the raven - if one of them is from the wild, it is most likely a rescued animal not fit for release. I don`t know enough about ravens to judge if they should be kept in captivity, but I know not many zoos keep them, some of those that are in captivity there is no other option (then death).

There will never be a zoo without welfare issues - first, no zoo is perfect and since knowledge about animals always improve, the need to change enclosures will always be there. It`s not always possible to do it all immediately. Additional, issues concerning the welfare of an animal can have other reasons completely unrelated to the enclosure, for example distress after the partner dies or such. What is important for me is that the existing issues are adressed, and in Edinburgh`s case, I have the feeling that this really is done (while in Twycross, nothing happens....).

 

[Maguari]

I think with "fanatics", he meant the zoo chat members = zoo fanatics. Not you.

Some more points:
Wolong keeps around (or even more) then 100 pandas. They have some really nice habitats, but with around 100 solitary animals, you can imagine that the vast majority of their pandas do not live in those. They are very sucessful at breeding, but the Chinese use some pretty questionable methods to archieve that - the cubs are taken away from their mothers when they are just a few months old so that the mother gets into heat again soon and has cubs every year, while in the wild, she wuld nurse her cub for at least 1,5 years and have cubs only every 2 years. Western zoos do not use this technique. Chances are high that the 2 pandas in Edinburgh have a) a better, much more stimulating encloure on a permanent basis and b) much more natural living conditions.

Re the chimps - about half of the group is from a dutch park (Beekse Bergen), and that dutch park got them from a labratory. They had never seen the sky or grass before coming to Beekse Bergen. Some animals were almost bald from overgrooming (due to boredom and stress in the labratory), but it got much better at Beekse Bergen in a more natural environment. It`s totally possible that the chimps you saw with bad hair are some of those.
By the way, if chimps have fleas and are left untreated, you have reasons to go to the police and report animal cruelty.

The leopard - I agree that the leopard cages are not optimal, and apparently they are on their way to a better enclosure soon. However, I tink you are reading way too much into the animal`s eyes. It is NOT that easy to read into an animal`s eyes as a lot of people think. It would be really easy if someone who doesn`t know the individual animal can just look into its eyes and immediately know all about its state of mind. Acessing a captive animal`s wellbeing is much more complicated then that. I agree that seeing a pacing leopard is not nice, but it does not always mean that it is stressed in that moment, or that feeling terrible. And it is also possible that the animal started pacing in another zoo. Once started, it`s almost impossible to get it to stop, even in much better living conditions, for example when the animal is waiting for feeding time. You can just reduce the amount of time it`s doing it once this is a habit.

All very well said.

 

[Maguari]

I'm beginning to think this forum is for people who either work in zoos or
think animals should be in zoos regardless of whether the species is endangered or not and I have obviously wrongly assumed this was really the main reason for zoos to exist (in the UK anyhow) for reasons of conservation. I am rapidly becoming a non-fan of zoos.

I personally think the educational benefits outweigh the conservational benefits of Zoos.

I agree entirely with Johnny Morris on this - conservation is a major role of zoos but education is at least equal and possibly greater. Many other countries fund zoos from public money in recognition of this (in the same way as museums). Sadly in the UK this does not happen.

Zoos of course also have valuable roles in research (as at Edinburgh's Living Links complex) and in good old fashioned recreation.

 

[Ginnieb]

I think with "fanatics", he meant the zoo chat members = zoo fanatics. Not you.

Some more points:
Wolong keeps around (or even more) then 100 pandas. They have some really nice habitats, but with around 100 solitary animals, you can imagine that the vast majority of their pandas do not live in those. They are very sucessful at breeding, but the Chinese use some pretty questionable methods to archieve that - the cubs are taken away from their mothers when they are just a few months old so that the mother gets into heat again soon and has cubs every year, while in the wild, she wuld nurse her cub for at least 1,5 years and have cubs only every 2 years. Western zoos do not use this technique. Chances are high that the 2 pandas in Edinburgh have a) a better, much more stimulating encloure on a permanent basis and b) much more natural living conditions.



Re the chimps - about half of the group is from a dutch park (Beekse Bergen), and that dutch park got them from a labratory. They had never seen the sky or grass before coming to Beekse Bergen. Some animals were almost bald from overgrooming (due to boredom and stress in the labratory), but it got much better at Beekse Bergen in a more natural environment. It`s totally possible that the chimps you saw with bad hair are some of those.
By the way, if chimps have fleas and are left untreated, you have reasons to go to the police and report animal cruelty.

The leopard - I agree that the leopard cages are not optimal, and apparently they are on their way to a better enclosure soon. However, I tink you are reading way too much into the animal`s eyes. It is NOT that easy to read into an animal`s eyes as a lot of people think. It would be really easy if someone who doesn`t know the individual animal can just look into its eyes and immediately know all about its state of mind. Acessing a captive animal`s wellbeing is much more complicated then that. I agree that seeing a pacing leopard is not nice, but it does not always mean that it is stressed in that moment, or that feeling terrible. And it is also possible that the animal started pacing in another zoo. Once started, it`s almost impossible to get it to stop, even in much better living conditions, for example when the animal is waiting for feeding time. You can just reduce the amount of time it`s doing it once this is a habit.

Thank you Yassa. I wasn't aware of where some of these chimps may have come from. I am sure that if this is the case their lives now are far superior to what they had in the beginning and is definitely for the best. Perhaps there should be notices at the enclosure with this information. There were no animal wardens around to ask and I would have felt less likely to have concern for their condition.

Re the leopard; I know one visit can't possibly let someone see the bigger picture and there could be any number of reasons as to why the leopard there is behaving this way.
I am a real cat person! I have always owned cats and big or little I do believe there is much that can be seen in a cats eyes. I never have more than one cat or animal in the house anymore as I believe some cats from certain situations need one to one company and no other competition (my boy is rescued from a life where he was used for breeding and for his first 7 years he lived in an outdoors pen and was filthy and matted). He is now a house cat with the option to go out if he wishes but he chooses not to most of the time. He is a very quiet and watchful individual. He watches every move I make in the house and is very happy now but he uses his eyes more than any cat I have ever had. I now work from home and he is beside me on my desk when I work and when I finish for the day he is next to me on the sofa and then sleeps on my pillow!

Why am I telling you this? Because I sometimes feel with this cat I have had 4 years of study. Given his start in life he is a very interesting character and actually 'uses' his eyes in ways I have seen or never had time to notice before with my previous cats over the years when I didn't work at home.

For example when I offer him a treat and put it towards his mouth he 'tells' me he wants it on the floor by nodding his head and moving his eyes down to the floor and standing back. I was shocked when I first noticed this. He was never trained to do this, he is actually communicating with me. If his food dish is empty he sits very deliberately in front of me and turns his head towards his dish and moves his eyes then looks straight back at me. He then does it again. If the heating isn't on in the house and he feels the cold he comes and sits in front of me and looks towards to open fire and back at me and meiows loudly. He does this two or three times until I get up and starts making the fire.

I have had cats all my life and never seen this behaviour but I often catch him staring at me and when I catch him out he just moves his eyes pretending he wasn't looking! There is much more but I won't bore you!

It may sound a bit mad I know but I am honestly not some nutter who lives on their own and has nothing else to do with their time I think this cat is a fascinating individual and really tries hard to communicate.

I stood for around half an hour at the leopard enclosure and just watched the cats behavious and eyes. I felt there was definitely something to be read in them, and it didn't look a happy animal. It may well have been instilled from a previous place but it is still displaying the behaviour and the zoo obviously feels it is still not happy if they are aiming to re-home it.

I realise it must be very difficult trying to help a distressed animal change it's stressed out ways but hopefully it may feel happier where it ends up.

 

[Ginnieb]

TeaLovingDave correctly pointed out my meaning in bringing in chimps, to which you have responded so fair enough.

But let me pose another question - ould you object in the same way to ravens in a zoo in (say) Sydney - where they would be an exotic large passerine and of great interest? I personally don't think whether a species is native is relevant to whether a species is suitable to be kept in captivity.


I realise this, and as noted I wasn't having a go at you for the level of RZSS criticism. It's just odd that they attract so much - almost seems somewhere they're giving out the wrong signals.

I probably wouldn't object in the same way, no. Because if they are not native to Australia and couldn't be seen in their wild then it could be seen as an exotic and for all intents and purposes be there for educational purposes.

Although to be honest and answer the educational question, I personally prefer zoos to be in place for conservational rather than educational purposes. But that is just my personal opinion.

Re criticising Edin Zoo, it's not an intentional slur on them. I as purely highlighting what I saw there and questioning it. I would do likewise with any zoo I visited that showed something that gave cause for concern.

I am certainly not liking the sound of Twycross at all but I can't comment from experience as I have never been.

 

[Yassa]

I had cats myself and I think I could read them pretty well myself, so I know what you mean. Remember however that the animals you see in a zoo are strange to you (and you to them), you usually know nothing about them, their personalities and their histories. That makes it much more difficult to "read" them like you do with your own animals. That`s why it is so super interesting to talk with keepers and ask them, I have often experienced that they know their animals inside out and put the animal`s behavoir into a totally different context then what I would have thought.

That the zoo wants to move them is on its own not necessarily a sign that the welfare of the leopard is that bad, because zoos have to take into consideration so many aspects, including the visitor`s opinion about the animal and the enclosure. People do not like cages nowadays, and keeping an individual who has a stereotypy in a cage means lots of visitors will be concerned and complain, regardless if the cage is large enough for that individual from a professional point of view or not. However, open enclosures surrounded by mock rock and glass are not always better then a cage...
I don`t want to say that the leopard cages in Edinburgh are good, or great (if I remember right the big cat cages were the weak point of the zoo), but that there could be a lot of reasons.

By the way, I was positively impressed by the penguin enclosures and that they can keep these species from the Antarcic outside in such spacious enclosures with so much breeding sucess. That is very, very special.

 

[Maguari]

I probably wouldn't object in the same way, no. Because if they are not native to Australia and couldn't be seen in their wild then it could be seen as an exotic and for all intents and purposes be there for educational purposes.

Although to be honest and answer the educational question, I personally prefer zoos to be in place for conservational rather than educational purposes. But that is just my personal opinion.

That's fair enough, but we'll have to agree to disagree!

I tend to think conservation and education are intrinsically linked - the one is useless without the other.

Re criticising Edin Zoo, it's not an intentional slur on them. I as purely highlighting what I saw there and questioning it. I would do likewise with any zoo I visited that showed something that gave cause for concern.

I am certainly not liking the sound of Twycross at all but I can't comment from experience as I have never been.

I've probably made Twycross sound a lot worse that it is! It's not a bad place as such - but of the bigger UK zoos it's probably the one with the highest number of unjustifiable problems.

 

[Ginnieb]

I had cats myself and I think I could read them pretty well myself, so I know what you mean. Remember however that the animals you see in a zoo are strange to you (and you to them), you usually know nothing about them, their personalities and their histories. That makes it much more difficult to "read" them like you do with your own animals. That`s why it is so super interesting to talk with keepers and ask them, I have often experienced that they know their animals inside out and put the animal`s behavoir into a totally different context then what I would have thought.

That the zoo wants to move them is on its own not necessarily a sign that the welfare of the leopard is that bad, because zoos have to take into consideration so many aspects, including the visitor`s opinion about the animal and the enclosure. People do not like cages nowadays, and keeping an individual who has a stereotypy in a cage means lots of visitors will be concerned and complain, regardless if the cage is large enough for that individual from a professional point of view or not. However, open enclosures surrounded by mock rock and glass are not always better then a cage...
I don`t want to say that the leopard cages in Edinburgh are good, or great (if I remember right the big cat cages were the weak point of the zoo), but that there could be a lot of reasons.

By the way, I was positively impressed by the penguin enclosures and that they can keep these species from the Antarcic outside in such spacious enclosures with so much breeding sucess. That is very, very special.

You are right, I agree. Although it would be good to have seen some of the keepers but there was no-one around. It would also be good if behaviour problems that are obvious with some animals are written about personally as well as giving general species information at the enclosure, perhaps this would alleviate the problem of people leaving zoos with ideas that animals are not happy and thus raising needless negative discussion when talking with others about their experience at the zoo. It wouldn't take much to implicate.

The penguins seem happy! They do seem to have reasonable space according to their size. I enjoyed the penguins and I imagine they wouldn't breed as well if they were overly stressed

 

[Ginnieb]

That's fair enough, but we'll have to agree to disagree!

Progress!

I tend to think conservation and education are intrinsically linked - the one is useless without the other.

I've probably made Twycross sound a lot worse that it is! It's not a bad place as such - but of the bigger UK zoos it's probably the one with the highest number of unjustifiable problems.

I agree that conservation and education are intrinsically linked, but I think if I had the choice of whether to keep zoos or not I would have to say not. It's a tough one because I do love going to see animals that I wouldn't ordinarily get to see but I have to ask myself does my selfish desire override the preference to see these animals in their rightful place and living a free life? And my answer is no. Of course some of these animals are resuced and born in captivity from other places as some people righly point out but in an ideal world (for me) I would probably opt to end zoos.

I believe wonderful television from the likes of David Attenborough, books and the internet can provide us with views of these exotic animals and can be just as educational, the need to see them 'live' but in cages is I don't believe a neccesity when they can still be seen in the wild. That is why I believe having zoos for conservation purposes only overrides my preference to having them exist for educational purposes. Then of course it is still possible to visit many countries to see a particular animal living in the wild (but then I am a Travel Agent who amongst other things arranges specialised Wildlife trips for some of my customers so I know what the possibilities are ) Sorry, not a plug, honestly! Just painting the big picture so you understand where I am coming from

 

[Yassa]

Some zoos do that, putting up signs to explain why an animal has a stereotypy. But actually only a small percentage of visitors pay so much attention to individual animals like you. I always like it very, very much when zoos set up specific times for "keeper talks" and I think every zoo should do that.

By the way, it is a misconception that animals only breed when they are happy and not overly stressed. You`ll see that argument a lot to justify outdated or even horrific enclosures - often the zoo or people defending the zoo will claim that it can`t be that bad since the animals are breeding naturally. Actually, big cats breed like mice in circusses in cages where they can hardly turn around, and mink breed in farms under far, far horrific conditions. The chimps from the dutch lab bred there well, too.
It`s a lot more complicated then that. Sometimes breeding is a sign of good husbandry and animal welfare, sometimes it is not. It always depends on the species and the individuals. For example, clouded lepards are extremely sensitive to stress and tend to kill their cubs and even their mates when they are stressed. So if a zoo breeds clouded leopards, that`s a pretty good sign the animals are not stressed out. But most lions and tigers, on the other side, breed well regardless under which condition they live (even in circusses). Although there are also be a few nervous individuals who won`t breed (or won`t raise their cubs) when they are stressed.
It really gets more complicated the more you learn about it, LOL.

 

[Pertinax]

Although it would be good to have seen some of the keepers but there was no-one around. It would also be good if behaviour problems that are obvious with some animals are written about personally as well as giving general species information at the enclosure, perhaps this would alleviate the problem of people leaving zoos with ideas that animals are not happy and thus raising needless negative discussion when talking with others about their experience at the zoo.

This is a common complaint in our Zoos- that staff are often hard to find when one wants to ask questions. Exactly the same issue has just been raised on the Dublin threads and it seems almost universal. Obviously no zoo can afford to have staff hanging around just to answer questions so they are understandably usually fully busy, and so may not be in evidence. But it also means visitors who would like to raise specific questions or concerns often aren't able to, which may work against the Zoo in the long run.

Posting notices about behavioural problems would, in the absence of staff to ask firsthand, help a lot more in allevaiting the problem you mention of people leaving with false or bad impressions of what they have seen at the zoo. It is done sometimes- usually in the case of e.g. an obvious injury or an example of extreme stereotyped/repetitive behaviour but it could be employed more often- though zoos may be understandably reluctant to cover their exhibits with such notices!

 

[Maguari]

I agree that conservation and education are intrinsically linked, but I think if I had the choice of whether to keep zoos or not I would have to say not. It's a tough one because I do love going to see animals that I wouldn't ordinarily get to see but I have to ask myself does my selfish desire override the preference to see these animals in their rightful place and living a free life? And my answer is no. Of course some of these animals are resuced and born in captivity from other places as some people righly point out but in an ideal world (for me) I would probably opt to end zoos.

I believe wonderful television from the likes of David Attenborough, books and the internet can provide us with views of these exotic animals and can be just as educational, the need to see them 'live' but in cages is I don't believe a neccesity when they can still be seen in the wild. That is why I believe having zoos for conservation purposes only overrides my preference to having them exist for educational purposes. Then of course it is still possible to visit many countries to see a particular animal living in the wild (but then I am a Travel Agent who amongst other things arranges specialised Wildlife trips for some of my customers so I know what the possibilities are ) Sorry, not a plug, honestly! Just painting the big picture so you understand where I am coming from

I do understand but to my mind, the look on a kid's face seeing a giraffe for the first time is something that no film can equal (however high quality they are - and to be honest increasingly Attenborough's are the only wildlife programmes worth watching - most of the rest are more travelogues or celebrity vanity projects). Certainly it does more to fire the imagination and the enthusiasm. And of course, only a relatively small percentage can afford to travel widely in search of animals in the wild, however much they'd like to.

It's also worth bearing in mind that many animals in zoos live longer and healthier lives than they would in the wild, and without the same level of predator or climate stress. Of course, this all assumes animals are being kept properly, and it would be foolish to claim there aren't examples of bad practice out there - but a good zoo changes what is wrong, and Edinburgh does this (and even Twycross is finally starting to!).

 

[Ginnieb]

Some zoos do that, putting up signs to explain why an animal has a stereotypy. But actually only a small percentage of visitors pay so much attention to individual animals like you. I always like it very, very much when zoos set up specific times for "keeper talks" and I think every zoo should do that.

By the way, it is a misconception that animals only breed when they are happy and not overly stressed. You`ll see that argument a lot to justify outdated or even horrific enclosures - often the zoo or people defending the zoo will claim that it can`t be that bad since the animals are breeding naturally. Actually, big cats breed like mice in circusses in cages where they can hardly turn around, and mink breed in farms under far, far horrific conditions. The chimps from the dutch lab bred there well, too.
It`s a lot more complicated then that. Sometimes breeding is a sign of good husbandry and animal welfare, sometimes it is not. It always depends on the species and the individuals. For example, clouded lepards are extremely sensitive to stress and tend to kill their cubs and even their mates when they are stressed. So if a zoo breeds clouded leopards, that`s a pretty good sign the animals are not stressed out. But most lions and tigers, on the other side, breed well regardless under which condition they live (even in circusses). Although there are also be a few nervous individuals who won`t breed (or won`t raise their cubs) when they are stressed.
It really gets more complicated the more you learn about it, LOL.

You are right on both counts. I guess I should'nt have said that in a general sense when I really meant to say that I reckon the penguins seem happy enough and I love the fact they have all these little nesting pods to simulate how it is in the wild. I would love to see little piles of pebbles everywhere in there too so they could actualy be involved in the building of their nests.