Edinburgh Zoo Sad at some sights in Edin Zoo

[Ginnieb]

Not to get to personal but you just contradicted yourself in the same post... you said...

"I never said any animal 'looked' sad, I said I was sad!"

Then said... "I have no problem with as long as they are happy"

Edinburgh Zoo as strong links with Stirling University...the ravens at the zoo... like the squirrel monkeys and capuchins in living links are involved in studies carried out by the university and thats why they are in the zoo... as shown on the zoo website...Edinburgh Zoo has one of the best zoo websites in my opinon with accurate information about individual animals in there care...

Raven

Edinburgh Zoo is far from perfect... but atleast they are attempting to change for the better... the newer enclosures are a testimony to that. You seemed to enjoy aspects of the zoo yet you didnt mention them.

You are saying that people should go to the natural places and see these animals. I agree with that... and i have done it... seeing a bengal tiger and leopard in india has been the highlight of my wildlife achievement to date. But a very important point has to be made. I would NEVER have been so passionate about wildlife or conservation had it not been for Edinburgh Zoo and me spending time there as a child and conditions then were worse. Kids cannot spend hrs on the back of a safari jeep waiting to see a tiger or leopard... but they can go to the zoo and 90% of the time see them and get inspired by them.

I recently bought my neice a membership for the zoo.. and i will continue to take her.. because its those kind of encounters with zoo animals that made me want to conserve their wild cousins.

I answered all your questions on previous posts regarding the chimps, the leopard, the ravens and the hedgehog (thats actually a tenrec..lol).. so we will have to agree to dissagree on things are you dont seem to be taking on board what many people are saying to you and still saying the animal was "sad" or the enclosure was to small. these are all your opinon which you are welcome to express

Lesley, Lesley....
Please read what you just wrote...

I never said any animal 'looked' sad, I said I was sad!"

Then said... "I have no problem with as long as they are happy"

I never contradicted myself as you suggest, this is not a contradiction... It would only be a contradiction if I said 'I have no problem as long as they 'look' happy... and I didn't say that now did I?

I said I have no problem as long as they 'are' happy, there is a difference. And if you look further at what you just said.... the fact is I had never said I thought they looked sad in the first place anyway!!!

Lol, this is really getting silly this taking apart word by word what I am saying and even then getting the accusation wrong!

Again please read back through all the posts before judging that I didn't think other exhibits were good. I think even in my very first post I said I enjoyed seeing the African Painted Dogs and later the penguins. And in fact I did like a number of others but I would be writing a book here for goodness sake!!! I innocently had voiced my concern in my first post and asked a forum a numbers of questions on a small number of exhibits, that is all!

It's great that you were inspired by a zoo as a child, and I have do doubt it may inspire others. I'm glad that animals in cages made you learn to love wildlife. What a shame for the creatures in the cages but hey ho, that's what they are there for after all, isnt that that this forum is all about?, it really seems like it to me (buit not by all I may add).

I was taken to the zoo as a child and have no memories of it at all except when I look at photos. But I still grew up loving wildlife.

Look, I'm not and have not said it is wrong and we shouldn't do it, I just don't agree with it particularly myself and again if you read back over some of my messages I like to think I have shown that I see the need to some degree of it and even suggested it might be good to fill zoos with rescued animals.

Going back to your accusation of my being contradictory, surely your sentence that follows is in itself contradictory?!!

'You seemed to enjoy aspects of the zoo yet you didnt mention them'

 

[Johnny Morris.]

Lesley, Lesley....
Please read what you just wrote...

I never said any animal 'looked' sad, I said I was sad!"

Then said... "I have no problem with as long as they are happy"

I never contradicted myself as you suggest, this is not a contradiction... It would only be a contradiction if I said 'I have no problem as long as they 'look' happy... and I didn't say that now did I?

I said I have no problem as long as they 'are' happy, there is a difference. And if you look further at what you just said.... the fact is I had never said I thought they looked sad in the first place anyway!!!

Lol, this is really getting silly this taking apart word by word what I am saying and even then getting the accusation wrong!

Again please read back through all the posts before judging that I didn't think other exhibits were good. I think even in my very first post I said I enjoyed seeing the African Painted Dogs and later the penguins. And in fact I did like a number of others but I would be writing a book here for goodness sake!!! I innocently had voiced my concern in my first post and asked a forum a numbers of questions on a small number of exhibits, that is all!

It's great that you were inspired by a zoo as a child, and I have do doubt it may inspire others. I'm glad that animals in cages made you learn to love wildlife. What a shame for the creatures in the cages but hey ho, that's what they are there for after all, isnt that that this forum is all about?, it really seems like it to me (buit not by all I may add).

I was taken to the zoo as a child and have no memories of it at all except when I look at photos. But I still grew up loving wildlife.

Look, I'm not and have not said it is wrong and we shouldn't do it, I just don't agree with it particularly myself and again if you read back over some of my messages I like to think I have shown that I see the need to some degree of it and even suggested it might be good to fill zoos with rescued animals.

Going back to your accusation of my being contradictory, surely your sentence that follows is in itself contradictory?!!

'You seemed to enjoy aspects of the zoo yet you didnt mention them'

If you don't agree with zoos why did you join a forum devoted to zoos?

 

[Ginnieb]

You are claiming to have more knowledge of animals than a layperson yet you still refer to a seal (it is a sealion) a hedgehog (which I believe is a tenrec) and chimps as monkeys.

But of course, I should have realised, the sea lion is the pinniped that most individuals know, because they are frequently used in water shows at theme parks, it was bound to be the one held in the zoo

I never cared to look closely at what was it there, just saw the nose come up for a breather in the filty water and it was so filthy I couldn't make it out so didn't hang around. Does that answer you pedantic statement? Since when do we go around saying 'Oooo, I saw a tenrec in my garden'!!! The sign in the zoo as I have said a number of times - read the posts - clearly says PYGMY HEDGEHOG. A hedgehog is NOT a tenrec. so... wrong!

Now, I've had enough of this site, I am signing out, don't care to reply any more, I'll leave the silly ones to get on with the antics elsewhere!!! And would like to thank the people who offered up sensible dialogue.

All the best.

 

[Ginnieb]

If you don't agree with zoos why did you join a forum devoted to zoos?

My last say in the matter is that I was not wholely decided, but having discovered as time has gone on here that some people who are supporting zoos via sites like this can't seem to be objective and moreover think of the fairness to the animals I tried to discuss, I think my mind has been made up.

I prefer not be be part of a site that is devoted to zoos regardless of the plight of some animals in them, that seems to me enormously selfish and self centred, although I do re-iterate that some on here seemed at least to be open and not all were so set in stone in their views.

I will continue to try and help animals where I can and think I will avoid zoos in future now.

 

[Ginnieb]

Ravens at Edinburgh Zoo

The ravens have also been part of a research programme testing the raven's cognitive abilities. Indeed, with some of the tests, they had to be prepared out of sight of the ravens as they would often reverse the process used by the keeper or researcher in setting up the puzzle feeder! There is also ongoing research on wild crows in the immediate vicinity of the zoo as part of further research into corvid cognitive abilities (look out for ringed crows.)

The leopards.

There has been extensive research again into their behaviours. Often zoology students from the local university can be seen spending hours at enclosures with a watch and clipboard. The "pacing" behaviour could have so many more causes than just boredom.
Both leopards used to be in enclosures where the jaguar is now. The female, now in the lower of the 2 enclosures, used to be notorious for this behaviour. It would break when a keeper was approaching, the door to her back indoor area was open or a specific education officer approached who she would immediately try and attack. Since moving she has calmed remarkably and when she comes into season she becomes very playful looking. She also paws at the lower dividing door between the enclosures, the area in which the male can often be seen "pacing". I would argue that he is patrolling as he confines this behaviour to just that corner. They have previously been introduced when, apparently, she tried to attack him so his nervousness about her presence is understandable. It is hoped that having a different environment, and especially a different climate, at Highland Wildlife Park might change their behaviours yet again.

Sea lion enclosure

The water is tested regularly and is relatively clean. It is dark though but that comes from a mix of the water coming through a reed bed filtration system (and why the enclosure immediately above it is "empty" and the rock and concrete used in the construction of the also being dark. Loch Ness, for example, is pitch black from the water that has filtered through peat bogs and dark soils in the surrounding area. the filtration system is, however, regarded as being out of date, and the sea lion is moving on to another enclosure.

Panda enclosure

The panda enclosure was also approved by the panda experts from China. Yes, pandas are often seen as a political entity but research work done in zoos, not just on pandas and not just in Edinburgh, can have a valuable input to our understanding to animals in the wild too. As mentioned elsewhere all animals patrol their territory looking out for potential threats, anything new in the area and perhaps a new food source. Territory size is often related to availability of food. In the case of zoos, very available, hence the need for zoos to find interesting ways in feeding the animals, such as smaller more frequent feeds in the case of the pandas.
The male panda had colic. Something that, on calling China, it was established is more common than many are aware in pandas!

Chimps

Ricky, in particular, has a lot of bald patches on his back. He's a 50 year old chimp so with a mix of age and overgrooming he's lost a bit there. Chimps, just like humans (we do share over 98% DNA) can also have bald bits for a whole host of reasons, even grey as two of the newer chimps are in a very noticeable way. One is a 31 year old female and the other her 15 year old daughter. With chimp politics and their society being just as complex as ours in some cases there can be so many factors.

It would be amazing useful to have lots of people around the zoo to be able to explain these things but often keepers are busy cleaning enclosures, preparing food, preparing enrichment and a whole host of other tasks that they are unable to spend as much time as they would like to talk about the animals. Talks can only cover a selected area. When preparing the daily talks programmes the problem is usually more what to leave out rather than what to put in! One of the things that Edinburgh is trying to do is to have more volunteers out in the zoo to answer queries such as these!

I'm sure that without someone there to answer questions and, particularly when you are short of time, the lack of opportunity to spend sufficient time at any given enclosure similar issues would be raised at any zoo. Suffice to say that every good zoo is continually assessing the needs and welfare of its animals along with the animals it keeps.

I would encourage you to email the zoo with your concerns, Ginnieb, and I am sure they would be more than willing to give you a very fully and detailed response that I am sure would put your mind at ease. I am sure that any good zoo would do the same and hopefully I could include most if not all UK zoo in that.

Simon, (just checking to make sure I had replied to all) Wow, thank you for taking the time to write such a well informed reply. I read it with much interest and appreciate your explanations and obvious knowledge on some of the individuals I mentioned. This certainly helps and I am planning to email the zoo directly.

Thank you again and all the very best.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The sign in the zoo as I have said a number of times - read the posts - clearly says PYGMY HEDGEHOG. A hedgehog is NOT a tenrec. so... wrong!

It says Pygmy Hedgehog Tenrec - you will note I already linked you to an article about the species!

I even have a photo of the sign somewhere...

Seriously though, have a breather and then do consider returning here - you'll find it's not a bad place really, and we are often to be found discussing the problems zoos face and how they can be solved - so we aren't "devoted to zoos regardless of the plight of some animals in them", we want this plight to change where it is to be found.

 

[EvilKittie]

Why would hens be pinioned? I though they were unable to fly anyway. As for the coots, well maybe they were hiding from you in a bush or some reeds. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it isn't there!

It terms of chickens, and as working on a farm with alot of free-range chickens we pinion ours to prevent injury to them and others. But also they can fly a short distance e.g up to a fence. Off topic but I wanted to input

 

[Ginnieb]

It says Pygmy Hedgehog Tenrec - you will note I already linked you to an article about the species!

I even have a photo of the sign somewhere...

Seriously though, have a breather and then do consider returning here - you'll find it's not a bad place really, and we are often to be found discussing the problems zoos face and how they can be solved - so we aren't "devoted to zoos regardless of the plight of some animals in them", we want this plight to change where it is to be found.

Hi TeaLovingDave

I'm still here , this site is addictive I will say!

After that last reply there to Johnny Morris who asked the question "If you don't agree with zoos why did you join a forum devoted to zoos?" I though I would check in with the Home page and the 'About Us' bit to see exactly what the sites aims are and have pasted in the following:

About ZooChat
ZooChat is an online community focussed on discussion about zoos, animal conservation and nature in general. We have a worldwide audience of zoo and animal conservation enthusiasts who discuss zoos and share photos and other information about nearly 600 zoos from over 50 countries.

It doesn't say 'devoted' to zoos so I feel rightly as deserving as anyone else to have a view on the forum.

Re the Hedgehog, tenrec, whatever it is! If you have a photo of the sign then it must be right I can only recall seeing the sign that said Pygmy Hedgehog. I really and honestly wasn't wanting to get into an argument with anyone about what it was called, merely to say that hedgehog, tenrec, whichever one it is, it still looked at though the tank was way too small for a creature of that size to live in. Sorry I missed your link, I will go back and take another look at that out of interest, thank you.

And thank you for your words. I will certainaly go away and take a breather and think about whether I will use the site again. Especially now I see the site is for discussion about zoos and not necessarily devoted to zoos.

All the best.
(I love my tea too, drinkable and edible and haven't had mine yet so I'm off to do just that, hunger is making me narky

 

[Maguari]

After that last reply there to Johnny Morris who asked the question "If you don't agree with zoos why did you join a forum devoted to zoos?"

I think Johnny Morris used 'devoted' in its sense meaning 'given over to' rather than 'in love with'.

That said, negative posts are not invalid, but they should expect to be debated!



It's an important factor whether it is Pygmy Hedgehog or Lesser Hedgehog Tenrec as the latter are a good deal smaller (and if anything even less active!).

 

[Davef68]

Regarding the big cats (specifically the leopards but others in general) - big cats sleep a lot of the time, in between eating. They don't really do a lot else, especially the solitary species, so they don't need as large enclosures as people think.

I've discussed the 'pacing' with keepers and staff, and as Simon says, there are many factors, it's not usually 'stir crazy' as people beleive. It can be patrolling - but it is often time related, as it becomes more prevalent near to the time of day when they get their scatter feed!! Mowgli, the black Jaguar, used to pace and scratch his glass as this time approached.

You can see conditioned pacing in one of the sun bears, who was kept as a pet in a small cage, and can often be seem pacing a distance that matches the dimensions of his old cage.

 

[OrangePerson]

'Fanatic'? For asking some questions? Dear me.

And then you go onto answer the question informatively by saying two groups of monkeys were recently put together. That would have done thank you.

No, as someone already pointed out, but you seemed to ignore them, the word fanatic didn't refer to you.

 

[Mr T]

I never cared to look closely at what was it there, just saw the nose come up for a breather in the filty water and it was so filthy I couldn't make it out so didn't hang around. Does that answer you pedantic statement? Since when do we go around saying 'Oooo, I saw a tenrec in my garden'!!! The sign in the zoo as I have said a number of times - read the posts - clearly says PYGMY HEDGEHOG. A hedgehog is NOT a tenrec. so... wrong!

So do I not get an apology here?

 

[mazfc]

You are claiming to have more knowledge of animals than a layperson yet you still refer to a seal (it is a sealion) a hedgehog (which I believe is a tenrec) and chimps as monkeys.

I think I have more knowledge than the average layperson but I still had to look up 'passerine' . At the above average level I'd consider myself a great ape person, but in other areas I dont know half as much, but I support my (and Ginnieb's) right to learn more.

I haven't necessarily agreed with Ginnieb's point of view in this thread, but I respect her right to state it or to ask questions about without getting a personal attack. There's been a lot of great answers and debate on this thread and I've been learning a lot - so well done all those zoo chatters who can state their cases calmly and objectively

 

[SMR]

All big cats are prone to pacing to varying degrees, but the reasons why can often be varied and collection-dependent.

For example, the lions at Bristol are notorious pacers and at Chester the melanistic jaguar constantly paced his inside enclosure. Most people will recognise the pacing at Bristol due to the small area in which it occurs (one female paced a hollow in the substrate during the course my visit yesterday) whereas because the jaguar at Chester paces the perimeter of what is a really large area, hardly anyone notices. Both could be very different behaviours, or both remarkably similar; the cats patrolling what they see as the perimeter of their territories.

I've seen both Amur leopards and one golden cat pacing at Edinburgh. The leopards in particular cause concern amongst visitors because they pace along each window ledge, but this could be because they perceive this to be their territorial boundary and from where a threat will originate - not surprising given that the enclosures are glass-fronted and it's where all the visitors stand. If you happen by the leopard enclosures late in the day when it's going dark and most visitors have left, you'll find that the cats have stopped pacing, so rather than a stereotypical behaviour it's more likely to be a reaction to a given situation, one not helped by the design of the enclosure.

The Amur leopards at Twycross are also in a glass-fronted exhibit, and they too pace, but they don't have the advantage of the height and areas in which to hide of the Edinburgh exhibits.

 

[SMR]

Unfortunately, unless you live in certain parts of Scotland and a few very specific other areas, British wildlife is, to an awful lot of people, pretty dull. Much I as would love everyone to appreciate it more, ten minutes of zoo panda- or meerkat-watching will interest many more people than two hours in a hide trying to spot a bittern.

I found that watching a robin in a bush whilst queuing was more exciting than the giant pandas...

 

[stubeanz]

I thought I would add a small ammount of info on tenrecs.
Really the zoo should not call them Pygmy hedgehog tenrecs ( I have never heard them called this) as it brings too much confusion between two distinct unrelated species the pygmy hedgehog and the lesser hedgehog tenrec.

If it is a lesser hedgehog tenrec hen that would explain alot of it's behaviour.

This time of year they will be brumating and therefore will move perhaps twice a day to eat and defecate. They should have plastic plants as even though they are insectivorous they will eat a small ammount of vegetation in captivity. They most probably wouldn't pass up an opportunity to eat a real plant in there!
Every tenrec I have worked with or kept sleeps with it's face or body pressed flat against the glass or branches... Tbh I'm not sure why they do this but maybe they sleep in small holes in branches in the wild and feel secure this way. As I type this right now I have a brumating tenrec asleep, face literally squished up against the glass in it's vivarium by my desk!

 

[Maguari]

I found that watching a robin in a bush whilst queuing was more exciting than the giant pandas...

Much as I hate to break it to you I suspect you're not an average zoo visitor.

 

[IanRRobinson]

Much as I hate to break it to you I suspect you're not an average zoo visitor.

Long years of watching the London Giant Pandas leads me to the suspicion that a Robin packs more activity into a day than the average Ailuropoda melanoleuca does in a lifetime...

 

[Mr T]

I think I have more knowledge than the average layperson but I still had to look up 'passerine' . At the above average level I'd consider myself a great ape person, but in other areas I dont know half as much, but I support my (and Ginnieb's) right to learn more.

I haven't necessarily agreed with Ginnieb's point of view in this thread, but I respect her right to state it or to ask questions about without getting a personal attack. There's been a lot of great answers and debate on this thread and I've been learning a lot - so well done all those zoo chatters who can state their cases calmly and objectively

Look I am not looking for an argument here, but Ginnieb has not listened to what others have said to her. Members have told her that it is a sealion and she still refers to it as a seal, she talks of a hedgehog when others before me have told her it was a tenrec (including a link with a large body of information) and then says that I am wrong for saying it is tenrec. Everyone is allowed to ask questions to find out about animals but she was not prepared to listen to what people have told her. She made a big point of telling me I was wrong and tried to make me look stupid when in fact I was right. Like most members on here I make mistakes but if someone corrects me I accept it, I don't dismiss it and carry on thinking I was originally right.

She also keeps telling people to re-read her posts properly, yet she does not take the time to read the posts that others have made. She clearly doesn't re-read her own posts because they are littered with spelling mistakes, contradictions and inaccurate information.

 

[IanRRobinson]

Look I am not looking for an argument here, but Ginnieb has not listened to what others have said to her. Members have told her that it is a sealion and she still refers to it as a seal, she talks of a hedgehog when others before me have told her it was a tenrec (including a link with a large body of information) and then says that I am wrong for saying it is tenrec. Everyone is allowed to ask questions to find out about animals but she was not prepared to listen to what people have told her. She made a big point of telling me I was wrong and tried to make me look stupid when in fact I was right. Like most members on here I make mistakes but if someone corrects me I accept it, I don't dismiss it and carry on thinking I was originally right.

She also keeps telling people to re-read her posts properly, yet she does not take the time to read the posts that others have made. She clearly doesn't re-read her own posts because they are littered with spelling mistakes, contradictions and inaccurate information.

Working as an Education volunteer at London for five years taught me that sometimes you do meet people who prove the truth of that line in Only Fools and Horses - "there's none so blind as those who won't listen"..