South Lakes Wild Animal Park South Lakes 2014 #2

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I hope the previous thread wasn't closed because of the discussion on the manner in which South Lakes is being criticised?

shorts said:
some people are picking increasingly petty matters to score points from. A similar thing happens with Twycross.

I'm not against criticising either of these, or any other, collections (as my past posts will attest) it's just that I believe that any points raised should have a little more substance.
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I fully agree with this. Some people are criticising the South Lakes for the sake of it.

I don't think I've ever been to a major zoo that hasn't mixed species from different continents and I've been to most of the highly regarded zoos in the UK, USA, Australia, Germany, Czech Republic and Singapore. It's something I've accepted as "normal" for zoological collections and really can't understand why this particular collection is taking so much flak for it?

I've never been to South Lakes (it's not a highly regarded zoo! ha) and from the photographs I've seen there appear to be a few bad enclosures but i've also seen photographs of good enclosures, the new snow leopard exhibit for example.
 
Dicerorhinus said:
It's something I've accepted as "normal" for zoological collections and really can't understand why this particular collection is taking so much flak for it?
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The main point people have an issue with is, I believe, the fact that the mixes here tend to extend to prey animals being housed with predators.

As Thylo states, the reason for a new thread being created was because the last one had got a bit long, combined with the fact that the discussion was getting a little silly and off-topic - also we are halfway through the year, so it is a relatively logical place for a split.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
As nisha stated on the other thread, it was closed due to it becoming too long.

~Thylo:cool:
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There are active threads which are longer and it wouldn't be the first time discussion has been censored.

~ Dicero :)

Pertinax said:
Not referring here to South Lakes in particular, but I think that is a blanket statement and one probably held by some zoo visitors who see mixed exhibits too. In some cases it works well and looks fine too. Giraffe, White Rhino etc and (some) antelope(or zebra) normally seem to work well for example. Often however there are hidden 'undercurrents' which you can't see- zebras will kill antelope fawns for example, though the adults look fine out grazing together. Males of unrelated species will sometimes fight each other in the absence of rivals of their own species too.

Animals in the wild, even those that inhabit the same environment, often don't actually meet or associate together closely in the way they have to in a Zoo or park because of the much more limited space. So just because several species kept together are all from 'Africa' or 'South America' doesn't mean it is at all natural for them to share an enclosure. Some mixed exhibits- the unsuitable ones, actually cause a great degree of stress or even fighting- usually the species in the mix have an order of dominance so the ones lowest in the pecking order are the worst off. This isn't always evident from casual observation however, when the animals may appear quite content for periods of time.
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It's certainly true that mixing species can have its drawbacks but there are benefits in terms of enrichment. I've seen interspecies grooming in primates and there's a good arguement that a little harmless aggression is good enrichment.

I grew up seeing scarlet ibis mixed with sacred ibis, magellanic penguins mixed with prairie dogs and I even have a childhood photograph I took of a Philippine tarsier sitting next to a springhare.

I don't think a species' habits in the wild have as much importance as you imply. The situation in a zoo is entirely artificial, most of the pressures associated with living in the wild are absent and the majority of (mammal) species are captive bred for at least several generations. I think it's equally wrong to say an animal in a mixed exhibit is experiencing undue stress based on casual observations of a zoo visitor. If a "mix" isn't working the people who work with the animals should know and will no doubt seperate them. I'm not defending South Lakes or Mr. Gill but unless I've missed something this is all pure conjecture and there is no evidence of persistent welfare issues?
 
Dicerorhinus said:
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I think it's equally wrong to say an animal in a mixed exhibit is experiencing undue stress based on casual observations of a zoo visitor.

I'm not defending South Lakes or Mr. Gill but unless I've missed something this is all pure conjecture and there is no evidence of persistent welfare issues?
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I did not say that. I said that stress may be present but not be apparent from casual observations.

I also said I was not referring to South Lakes in particular, but regarding mixed exhibits generally.
 
Dicerorhinus said:
I even have a childhood photograph I took of a Philippine tarsier sitting next to a springhare.
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Bristol, perchance? I too would love to see that image.

Dicerorhinus said:
unless I've missed something this is all pure conjecture and there is no evidence of persistent welfare issues?
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Depends on how you would classify scarring on at least one of the Lowland Tapirs which has been observed by multiple people over the years - myself included - which rather resembled claw marks.

Back when he was still active on the site, yorik did address this matter and if I recall rightly claimed this scarring was due to the tapirs compulsively scratching themselves against trees and *not* attack by the bears - however, I would argue that even if this is true, such actions in prey animals housed with predators would itself be a sign of stress.
 
I don't know if Asian SC Otters still share the enclosure with the Bears here, but its worth noting Jersey once had this mix and I think they discontinued it after a Bear killed an Otter. Now the South Lakes Otters may be perfectly happy with their Bear companions, but so I think were the Jersey ones until it happened.
 
Pertinax said:
I don't know if Asian SC Otters still share the enclosure with the Bears here, but its worth noting Jersey once had this mix and I think they discontinued it after a Bear killed an Otter. Now the South Lakes Otters may be perfectly happy with their Bear companions, but so I think were the Jersey ones until it happened.
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From my last visit at the start of the month, the signage was still in place. However, I didn't see any Asian short-clawed otter's on display.
 
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Pertinax said:
I did not say that. I said that stress may be present but not be apparent from casual observations.

I also said I was not referring to South Lakes in particular, but regarding mixed exhibits generally.
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Sorry, I was agreeing with your point regarding the visibility of stress/conflicts through casual observation of zoo visitors adding that it's also wrong to assume stress based on infrequent observation of zoo visitors.

Yes, so was I and that wasn't directed at you.

TeaLovingDave said:
Bristol, perchance? I too would love to see that image.



Depends on how you would classify scarring on at least one of the Lowland Tapirs which has been observed by multiple people over the years - myself included - which rather resembled claw marks.

Back when he was still active on the site, yorik did address this matter and if I recall rightly claimed this scarring was due to the tapirs compulsively scratching themselves against trees and *not* attack by the bears - however, I would argue that even if this is true, such actions in prey animals housed with predators would itself be a sign of stress.
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I'm mainly referring to the reactions regarding the addition of ground hornbills to the walkthrough area and the chipmunk/tamarin/bettong enclosure.
There seems to be a consensus that the owner isn't aleays honest so if we, for arguments sake, say he is lying here. Zoos are subject to licensing laws, an EU directive and, optionally, the rules of organisations like EAZA and BIAZA. If there were any serious welfare issues I assume this would have had to have been addressed. The
bears are EEP animals so I assume the coordinator is satisfied with the arrangement.
I'm no expert on the diet of wild Andean bears but it's always been my understanding their diet largely consists of vegetation with the odd small vertebrate and birds egg. I've just had a very quick search to find a verified tapir kill and have seen one paper
where they failed to find any animal remains in scat whatsoever and a few very vague references to tapirs being a prey species elsewhere. If they're a prey species why have there not been any fatalities? I don't think a tapir would last too long in a Jaguar exhibit

As I said previously I'm not defending him or housing tapirs with bears. Looking at the photographs of the place I think there's plenty of fair criticism to made but mixing tamarins, chipmunks and bettongs feels like a stretch.

Yes, you're absolutely right it was taken at Bristol, there are actually two photographs.
We bought a house last summer and have a loft full of boxes we haven't had time to unpack, they're either there or at my parents house. Sorting/disposing of the contents of the loft is something I'll do when I complete my PhD this year, I'll pm you both the photos if you can wait that long.

edit:
I've had a quick look in the more accessible boxes in the loft and couldn't see the album. Sorry, but you'll have to wait... on the plus side I've convinced my girlfriend to part with a lot of shoes.
 
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Just to add that the Asian small clawed otters ARE still in the bear/caps bars/tapir/spider monkey exhibit. We saw them swimming in the pond a couple of weeks ago.
 
THE owner of Dalton zoo is due in court tomorrow charged with allowing animals to escape into the wild.

David Stanley Gill, of Broughton Road, Dalton, is alleged to have allowed a sacred Ibis to escape into the wild on July 19 last year.

Gill runs South Lakes Wild Animal Park, in Dalton, which was this week named in Trip Advisor’s top 10 UK zoos.

He faces two further counts of the same charge relating to September 19 and a further count on October 30.

South Lakes Wild Animal Park Ltd has also been charged with the same offences.

Gill, 53, will appear before Furness Magistrates’ Court tomorrow where he will face all three charges.
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"two further counts of the same charge" refer also to a sacred ibis? Or just a general "allowing animals to escape" (so, any species)? Surely there have been numerous escapes of several species from that place. I can think of at least four species just off the top of my head!
 
As Press releases: I feel it says it all, the man who is a liability and lays blame at the feet of others for his own failures (that's my own person opinion based on numerous emails from him to me some years ago). The man has made numerous threats to leave the UK and go to the USA, he blamed a keeper for her death, he has animal escapes and numerous legal cases against him, he is abrasive and rubs people up the wrong way. There is an old saying and it holds true. "No such thing as bad student, only bad teacher. Teacher say, student do."

North West Evening MailNews
DALTON ZOO OWNER DENIES ALLOWING ANIMALS TO ESCAPE
Last updated at 17:04, Thursday, 07 August 2014
THE owner of Dalton zoo has appeared in court today and denied charges of allowing animals to escape into the wild.

David Gill photo
David Gill
David Stanley Gill, of Broughton Road, Dalton, is alleged to have allowed a sacred Ibis to escape into the wild on July 19 last year.

Gill runs South Lakes Wild Animal Park, in Dalton, which was this week named in Trip Advisor’s top 10 UK zoos.

He faces two further counts of the same charge relating to September 19 and a further count on October 30. Gill denied gave three not guilty pleas in court this morning.

South Lakes Wild Animal Park Ltd has also been charged with the same offences.

Gill, 53, appeared before Furness Magistrates’ Court.
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ZOO boss David Gill claims the public was never in danger when a cheetah got out of its enclosure at his Australian park.

Mr Gill faces charges of endangering the public after the animal was reported running free round the Mareeba Wild Animal Park in Queensland.

But the park owner, who also runs the South Lakes Wild Animal Park in Dalton, said the big cat had been let loose as part of a controlled experiment.

Mr Gill, in a press release, described the charges as the “trumped up” act of a “government bully”.

He said: “I can assure you that my management, who operated the park on my behalf when I was not present, and myself have never put the public at risk as safety has always been a priority.

“The event described as an escape was not an escape — it was a controlled experiment with a new fence design done very early in the morning.

“The animal was always under the control of the staff and was always within the park perimeter.

“We never thought of this as a reportable incident as it was a controlled situation that was well planned in advance and not at all as described in the release.”
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Council called for review of tiger enclosure seven years ago

Martin Williams
Senior News Reporter
Monday 3 June 2013
THE owner of a wildlife park where a Scots zookeeper was killed by a tiger had amassed fines totalling almost £20,000 following a series of issues relating to escaping animals.

A council licensing committee had ordered a review of the design of the tiger enclosure seven years ago due to concerns animals could escape at South Lakes Wild Animal Park, in Dalton-in-Furness in Cumbria.

Enclosure issues are currently being investigated after the death of Sarah McClay, 24, who was originally from Glasgow, after she was mauled by a tiger.

It has now emerged the park's owner, David Gill, was fined by authorities over escaped animals at his Mareeba Wild Animal Park in Australia before leaving the country as his business failed with debts of £2 million.

Police are working on the assumption human error or mechanical failure allowed the Sumatran tiger to escape from its pen at South Lakes.

There were said to be strict controls in place at the enclosure building, which has four animal pens accessible from a staff area where, among other things, cleaning equipment is stored.

Mr Gill has been criticised for claiming Ms McClay died because she broke the park's protocols by walking into the tiger's cage.

But police later said Ms McClay was in the staff area when the tiger first confronted her and it had not been established it was down to her error.

The wildlife park has been at the centre of a number of licence reviews following health and safety issues raised by inspectors.

Council papers show a review of enclosure design was requested in 2006 after "safety concerns" over a condor and vulture aviary and a new bat enclosure.

Escapes of ring-tailed lemur and coati had also raised a number of complaints.

A chief environmental officer's report called for a review of enclosure design to be undertaken "to ensure that animals contained therein may reasonably be contained within the zoo and if an escape were to take place, that the perimeter fence may adequately deter their future escape".

Two years later, a written warning threatening "formal action" was issued following the escape of lemurs.

Mr Gill left Australia after his park in Cairns in Queensland was accused of breaching permit conditions. He said at the time that he left quickly "under deep fear for both my family and my safety and freedom".

He was charged, convicted and fined more than £6000 for three breaches of the Land Protection Act in his absence, two of those involving the escape of a lemur and cheetah and the unreported death of a lemur in October, 2004.

After being fined he said: "It was pure ignorance of the letter of the law that led to these breaches, it was not malicious intent."

In 2004, the Australasian Zoo and Aquarium Association executive officer Jonathan Wilcken confirmed Mr Gill's application for full membership had been rejected after an investigation.

Queensland's Department of Natural Resources (DNR) also investigated the adequacy of a bear enclosure in March, 2004.

Meanwhile, at the same time in Cumbria, an inspector questioned whether Mr Gill's zoo should have its licence renewed following questions around the security of the fencing around the bear, rhino and giraffe enclosures, repairs to mesh fencing and closer monitoring of walk-through areas.

In 1998, Barrow Borough Council was found guilty of maladministration in health and safety after a white rhino escaped from the wildlife park and had to be shot.

Six months after the escape Mr Gill had a total of £10,000 in fines and costs to pay, after being found guilty of endangering the public by failing to have adequate barriers.

An ombudsman ruled that Barrow Council had failed to carry out an inspection of the planned rhino facilities, even though Mr Gill gave "earliest" notice.

It was also held that the council had failed to carry out a health and safety inspection before the rhino arrived and to ensure Mr Gill fully met the conditions of his licence regarding on-site firearms.

The report said: "This is maladministration and allowed the zoo operator an opportunity to introduce into the zoo a rhinoceros without satisfactory facilities having first been put in place to the satisfaction of the council."
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I have edited your post, bigcat speciali, to make it a little easier to read by placing the various reports quoted into seperate quote boxes.
 
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