Species formerly kept in Brazil

[DanKoehl]

BH =Belo Horizonte zoo

PUC= The Pontificia Catholic University Museum

UFMG= The Federal University of Minas Gerais

Great thanks, while going on their website I also found another museum, Museu de Ciências Naturais PUC Minas.

Im trying to find out where Margarita is:

Google translation:
Created in 1983, the PUC Minas Museum of Natural Sciences reopened its exhibitions to the community in August 2002, in the new building specially designed for the development of its research, education and cultural leisure activities.

MCN PUC Minas houses an important collection of zoology. The paleontology collection stands out for its discoveries of mammals from the Pleistocene of South America. The Vertebrate collections of current fauna include amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals. The Museum's team is made up of qualified professionals and university students who participate in various projects. Museu de Ciências Naturais

 

[DanKoehl]

I take it that you work in elephant Conservation in Indochina ?

I worked internationally as manager and trainer of elephants since 1977, and manage the elephant database since 1995. The elephant database

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Great thanks, while going on their website I also found another museum, Museu de Ciências Naturais PUC Minas.

Im trying to find out where Margarita is:

Google translation:
Created in 1983, the PUC Minas Museum of Natural Sciences reopened its exhibitions to the community in August 2002, in the new building specially designed for the development of its research, education and cultural leisure activities.

MCN PUC Minas houses an important collection of zoology. The paleontology collection stands out for its discoveries of mammals from the Pleistocene of South America. The Vertebrate collections of current fauna include amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals. The Museum's team is made up of qualified professionals and university students who participate in various projects. Museu de Ciências Naturais

Unfortunately I dont know anyone at PUC to ask on your behalf but David might do.

I suspect that the taxidermy or remains of Margarita would be kept either on public display or in the archive behind the scenes at the museum.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Great thanks, while going on their website I also found another museum, Museu de Ciências Naturais PUC Minas.

Im trying to find out where Margarita is:

Google translation:
Created in 1983, the PUC Minas Museum of Natural Sciences reopened its exhibitions to the community in August 2002, in the new building specially designed for the development of its research, education and cultural leisure activities.

MCN PUC Minas houses an important collection of zoology. The paleontology collection stands out for its discoveries of mammals from the Pleistocene of South America. The Vertebrate collections of current fauna include amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals. The Museum's team is made up of qualified professionals and university students who participate in various projects. Museu de Ciências Naturais

There is an Asiatic elephant skeleton on display apparently which may belong to "Margarita".

In 1983 apparently students at the university brought three Asiatic elephants to the university campus to protest the military dictatorship of Brazil (photos and info in link below):

PUC-SP relembra resistência à ditadura com histórias e cronologia do golpe

The elephants symbolised the heaviness of the repressive government and it's torture and disappearance apparatus or "elephant in the room".

Perhaps "Margarita" was one of these animals?

If so it would make sense that the university preserved the remains along with the obvious natural history value.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I worked internationally as manager and trainer of elephants since 1977, and manage the elephant database since 1995. The elephant database

I see that's interesting that you have so much experience with these animals and the database looks to be very comprehensive.

Have you worked with conserving these animals in the wild too ?

 

[DanKoehl]

That's quite an old picture of me at the museum, but it's the only I could find where the yak appears. Left corner in the bottom of the image.


View attachment 482114

David is the picture with elephant skeleton possibly taken at Museu de Ciências Naturais PUC Minas?

 

[David Matos Mendes]

David is the picture with elephant skeleton possibly taken at Museu de Ciências Naturais PUC Minas?

First of all, I'm sorry for the abreviations I forgot to better specify.
Yes, just like @Onychorhynchus coronatus said, BH zoo is Belo Horizonte zoological gardens, PUC is the natural history museum of Pontifícia Universidade Católica de Minas Gerais, much probably the largest natural history museum in Minas Gerais state, and one of the largest in the country.
Yes, this is a picture from around 2014 or something, at PUC museum of natural history, and the skeletons behind me are from elephants that lived in BH zoo. I imagine the elephant you're looking for could be "Margarete"? She's the only asian elephant that ever lived in the zoo. If so, she's the skeleton in the left of the picture. She used to belong to a circus, and was sent to live in BH zoo at some point in the 1980's if I'm not wrong.

Here's another picture, very similar to the other, but that better shows her skeleton. She's the one that follows right behind me, slightly to the left. Sorry for not having individual pictures of the piece itself. I've been to this museum quite a few times, but this is the only visit that I took pictures.

 

[David Matos Mendes]

Unfortunately I dont know anyone at PUC to ask on your behalf but David might do.

I suspect that the taxidermy or remains of Margarita would be kept either on public display or in the archive behind the scenes at the museum.

Wow, that's a great piece of history! I had no idea about it!
In the other hand, I doubt one of these could be "Margarete", as it all happened at PUC university in São Paulo, instead of the one here in BH. By the way, I'm curious about what happened to these three elephants...

 

[David Matos Mendes]

David is the picture with elephant skeleton possibly taken at Museu de Ciências Naturais PUC Minas?

A picture from Belo Horizonte zoo archive that I "scanned" in one of the institution's anniversary expositions, that shows "Margarete' as she was still alive. She's the first in the right hand side. It is possible to see she's the only asian elephant in the exhibit. Afaik, she died at the age of 75. The exhibit changed a lot since this picture was taken.

 

[DanKoehl]

Wow, that's a great piece of history! I had no idea about it!
In the other hand, I doubt one of these could be "Margarete", as it all happened at PUC university in São Paulo, instead of the one here in BH. By the way, I'm curious about what happened to these three elephants...

In general, although zoo elephants could be pretty well trained, they were usually not trained to a level where they could be brought to the inner city of a town, and be stabile and stand in the middle of masses of people, and traffic. Normally only circus elephants could do this, basically because they were used to it. But, IF Margarita earlier travelled with a circus, then it could be her on the picture. Therefore, it would be interesting if more info on her background can be provided, and maybe old news clippings from the event at the university, where the three elephants are mentioned, the name of the circus, etc.

In regard to the present, when Margerite is displayed at the Museum, it would be equally interesting to know her Accession/Catalogue number, her arrival date at Museum, and possibly date for mounting and names of taxidermy experts who mounted the skeleton. The as an add-on, information of the second elephant, the (African?) tusker would be great. David, do you think its possible to get this info, if you contact the conservator you know at the museum?

I hope its OK that I use the pictures on her records at the elephant database? Margarita, an Asian elephant at Belo Horizonte Zoobotanica

 

[David Matos Mendes]

In general, although zoo elephants could be pretty well trained, they were usually not trained to a level where they could be brought to the inner city of a town, and be stabile and stand in the middle of masses of people, and traffic. Normally only circus elephants could do this, basically because they were used to it. But, IF Margarita earlier travelled with a circus, then it could be her on the picture. Therefore, it would be interesting if more info on her background can be provided, and maybe old news clippings from the event at the university, where the three elephants are mentioned, the name of the circus, etc.

In regard to the present, when Margerite is displayed at the Museum, it would be equally interesting to know her Accession/Catalogue number, her arrival date at Museum, and possibly date for mounting and names of taxidermy experts who mounted the skeleton. The as an add-on, information of the second elephant, the (African?) tusker would be great. David, do you think its possible to get this info, if you contact the conservator you know at the museum?

I hope its OK that I use the pictures on her records at the elephant database? Margarita, an Asian elephant at Belo Horizonte Zoobotanica

Oh, yes, the point is that the university @Onychorhynchus coronatus mentioned that the three elephants were displayed is in São Paulo state, instead of Minas Gerais, where Belo Horizonte is located. There are various PUC universities in Brazil. Besides that, as the event happened in 1983, "Margarete" couldn't be part of it, as she was already living at Belo Horizonte zoo.
I unfortunately don't know these data you mention, but I surely can search for them. The person that I know in the museum much probably no longer works there, as there are many years since I last talked to her, but I can surely try to get informations with Belo Horizonte zoo director, who has worked at the museum for a considerable time. I was already planing to meet him again next week, so I'm gonna add this issue in my list of questions to him. About the pictures, of course you can add them. It's a honor to be able to help.
About the other tusked skeleton, it belongs to "Joca", the only male african elephant to ever breed in South America. He used to live in BH zoo too.

 

[David Matos Mendes]

In general, although zoo elephants could be pretty well trained, they were usually not trained to a level where they could be brought to the inner city of a town, and be stabile and stand in the middle of masses of people, and traffic. Normally only circus elephants could do this, basically because they were used to it. But, IF Margarita earlier travelled with a circus, then it could be her on the picture. Therefore, it would be interesting if more info on her background can be provided, and maybe old news clippings from the event at the university, where the three elephants are mentioned, the name of the circus, etc.

In regard to the present, when Margerite is displayed at the Museum, it would be equally interesting to know her Accession/Catalogue number, her arrival date at Museum, and possibly date for mounting and names of taxidermy experts who mounted the skeleton. The as an add-on, information of the second elephant, the (African?) tusker would be great. David, do you think its possible to get this info, if you contact the conservator you know at the museum?

I hope its OK that I use the pictures on her records at the elephant database? Margarita, an Asian elephant at Belo Horizonte Zoobotanica

I think you'd be interested to know about the other elephant that the museum keeps, but as a taxidermy mount. The institution does not inform which elephant is the one taxidermized, but I'm quite sure it is "Dandara". She died in 2010 while giving birth.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Wow, that's a great piece of history! I had no idea about it!
In the other hand, I doubt one of these could be "Margarete", as it all happened at PUC university in São Paulo, instead of the one here in BH. By the way, I'm curious about what happened to these three elephants...

Yes I was surprised by it too !

Such an elaborate form of protest and at a time when there was still two years before the end of the military dictatorship.

I wonder about them too and I was thinking that they could have been circus elephants ?

 

[David Matos Mendes]

Yes I was surprised by it too !

Such an elaborate form of protest and at a time when there was still two years before the end of the military dictatorship.

I wonder about them too and I was thinking that they could have been circus elephants ?

Yes, a very elaborate protest. I wonder what was the answer of the government at those times...
About the elephants, I also tend to think they were circus elephants indeed, as @DanKoehl pointed. I wonder if they didn't go to São Paulo zoo in the following years... Most of the elephants ever kept by the institution were asians, being only one african (Teresita).

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Yes, a very elaborate protest. I wonder what was the answer of the government at those times...
About the elephants, I also tend to think they were circus elephants indeed, as @DanKoehl pointed. I wonder if they didn't go to São Paulo zoo in the following years... Most of the elephants ever kept by the institution were asians, being only one african (Teresita).

I think the military could probably feel the tide was changing and that the population had had enough.

The protest at PUC was just one of many all throughout the country and the dictatorship could probably see the writing on the wall because two years later it would all fall apart.

Not sure about the elephants but there have been quite a few Asiatic elephants from circuses which ended up in zoos haven't there ?

Sandro and Raisa at Sorocaba were former circus elephants for example.

 

[David Matos Mendes]

I think the military could probably feel the tide was changing and that the population had had enough.

The protest at PUC was just one of many all throughout the country and the dictatorship could probably see the writing on the wall because two years later it would all fall apart.

Not sure about the elephants but there have been quite a few Asiatic elephants from circuses which ended up in zoos haven't there ?

Sandro and Raisa at Sorocaba were former circus elephants for example.

Yes, agree with you about the dictatorship.

Yes, most of the asian elephants in zoos in Brazil nowadays (if not all of them) came from circuses. Sandro and Raisa at SRC(as we know, Raisa is dead, but I'm counting her too, as she's part of the recent history), Serva and Hangun at SP, Koala and Karla at BioParque do Rio (Karla also died, but i'm considering her for the same motive I considered Raisa), The ones at Itatiba (wich I forgot the name), the ones at Ribeirão Preto, at the Bosque Fábio Barreto zoo and the one from Bica zoo, in João Pessoa, who has recently been sent to the sanctuary, all of them being from circuses...

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Yes, agree with you about the dictatorship.

Yes, most of the asian elephants in zoos in Brazil nowadays (if not all of them) came from circuses. Sandro and Raisa at SRC(as we know, Raisa is dead, but I'm counting her too, as she's part of the recent history), Serva and Hangun at SP, Koala and Karla at BioParque do Rio (Karla also died, but i'm considering her for the same motive I considered Raisa), The ones at Itatiba (wich I forgot the name), the ones at Ribeirão Preto, at the Bosque Fábio Barreto zoo and the one from Bica zoo, in João Pessoa, who has recently been sent to the sanctuary, all of them being from circuses...

Yes there has been a lot of these animals.

I'd say that Asiatic elephants coming from circuses to zoos in Latin America has been quite common as you can see this too in other countries like Mexico.

Perhaps African elephants are harder to obtain (except for Cuban zoos due to the country having strong and longstanding relationships with many African countries) by zoos and circuses ?

Perhaps Asiatic elephants are just easier to train and more docile than African elephants?

I'll put that question to @DanKoehl as he has a lifetime of experience with these animals.

 

[David Matos Mendes]

Yes there has been a lot of these animals.

I'd say that Asiatic elephants coming from circuses to zoos in Latin America has been quite common as you can see this too in other countries like Mexico.

Perhaps African elephants are harder to obtain (except for Cuban zoos due to the country having strong and longstanding relationships with many African countries) by zoos and circuses ?

Perhaps Asiatic elephants are just easier to train and more docile than African elephants?

I'll put that question to @DanKoehl as he has a lifetime of experience with these animals.

Yeah, good point that you mentioned. If it wasn't for a politic some african countries adopted back in the 70's of sending elephants to zoos worldwide to decrease the population of these animals invading farms, much probably no brazilian zoos would have ever kept african elephants. Also, I take the opportunity to ask you, @DanKoehl if you know more about these politics. I have always been interested to know more about it, as the sources I've read here in Brazil only mentions very few aspects.
Anxious to know what Dan is going to answer about this elephant question you made, @Onychorhynchus coronatus . Never actually thought deeper about it too.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Yeah, good point that you mentioned. If it wasn't for a politic some african countries adopted back in the 70's of sending elephants to zoos worldwide to decrease the population of these animals invading farms, much probably no brazilian zoos would have ever kept african elephants. Also, I take the opportunity to ask you, @DanKoehl if you know more about these politics. I have always been interested to know more about it, as the sources I've read here in Brazil only mentions very few aspects.
Anxious to know what Dan is going to answer about this elephant question you made, @Onychorhynchus coronatus . Never actually thought deeper about it too.

I didn't know that this was how Brazil historically got it's elephants so that is interesting for me to learn and I do enjoy knowing the historical background behind these things.

I know that Cuba's elephants and other African species in zoos are mostly diplomatic gifts from African countries.

This is because Cuba has historically played a big role in the latter half of the twentieth century history of Africa.

After the revolution Cuba established very strong and enduring political and military and diplomatic relations with many countries in Africa like Algeria and Ghana and Ethiopia to name but a few.

But probably the most important relationship that Cuba had with an African country was Angola where Cuban troops fought for almost two decades very successfully alongside the Angolan government against insurgent / guerilla groups like UNITA and conventional millitary forces like the South African army which invaded and crossed the border.

They also have their doctor exchange programs that send Cuban medics to different African countries (as they do here in Latin America too).

So the byproduct of those relations have often been expressed by diplomatic gestures of gratitude through African species being sent to Cuba over the decades and even to this day.

It's similar in some ways to panda diplomacy in the sense that animals are gifted as tokens of geopolitical alliances which is fascinating in itself (it's been happening from the times of ancient civilization to today so is a constant with humans).

 

[David Matos Mendes]

I didn't know that this was how Brazil historically got it's elephants so that is interesting for me to learn and I do enjoy knowing the historical background behind these things.

I know that Cuba's elephants and other African species in zoos are mostly diplomatic gifts from African countries.

This is because Cuba has historically played a big role in the latter half of the twentieth century history of Africa.

After the revolution Cuba established very strong and enduring political and military and diplomatic relations with many countries in Africa like Algeria and Ghana and Ethiopia to name but a few.

But probably the most important relationship that Cuba had with an African country was Angola where Cuban troops fought for almost two decades very successfully alongside the Angolan government against insurgent / guerilla groups like UNITA and conventional millitary forces like the South African army which invaded and crossed the border.

They also have their doctor exchange programs that send Cuban medics to different African countries (as they do here in Latin America too).

So the byproduct of those relations have often been expressed by diplomatic gestures of gratitude through African species being sent to Cuba over the decades and even to this day.

It's similar in some ways to panda diplomacy in the sense that animals are gifted as tokens of geopolitical alliances which is fascinating in itself (it's been happening from the times of ancient civilization to today so is a constant with humans).

Well, that's one nice explanation. Thanks! This part of history is completely ignored in schools (at least I have never seen mentions to this in history books in brazilian schools) and it is very interesting to get to know about it, specially being a particular big fan of history in general like myself.
Agree with you about the animal diplomacies. Nice way to start developing breeding programs, in some cases. It's not the case of what I'll mention now (at least not yet) but now that you mentioned this issue, I remembered the african elephants from Brasília zoo are an exception to that politic that I mentioned that happened in the 70's. They were actually a gift from Nelson Mandela as he got very pleased with the nice reception he had in his visit to the capital, and coincidently, the zoo's only elephant at the time (an asian female named Nelly) died while Mr. Mandela was here in Brazil. It is said that he noticed how upset people became with the death of this individual and than sent, in the following months, two baby african elephants to live there. A nice example of this animal gifting politic you have mentioned. Brasília lost one of these elephants in 2018, but as they acquired a male (technichaly from BH) in 2008, they are trying to breed the species, as they have completely refurbished their exhibit, in order to make the individuals closer, and built a maternity space.