stardust circus elephants

Circus hater,
Those are all valid OPINIONS and accounts.
could you please tell us which circus had a 'Chimp' i didnt believe any circuses held them, only Macaques.
Wouldnt it get expensive to feed at chimp on just maccas? and there arent maccas in every town, I worked ar Maccas for 2 years and it woudl be cheaper to feed him fruit.
 
We went to a recent circus and found the owners feeding the large old chimp Maccas for lunch, fries, coke and hamburgers...
We were horrified, as we asked them why were they giving him this the reply we were given was 'ohhh he loves it'.

yes, macdonalds probably isn't the healthiest thing for a chimp, but ethically not much different to giving it to your kids as far as i'm concerned.

however, surely the biggest issue here is how the chimp was treated at the circus. how was he confined? did he have access to other chimpanzees? if not why? under what methods was he trained and how does the circus justify keeping an endangered ape species? blah blah blah...

i'm not disagreeing with you here Circus Hater as i too am passionately opposed to the use of primates in circus' - but i think its important for animal liberation to be clear-cut, united and articulate in their arguments against zoos and circus' if thats how they feel.

i often find alot of what they say to be a bit of an anthropomorphised, hypocritical mess to be honest. is the fact that the circus fed the chimp an cheeseburger REALLY the problem here?

no its much bigger than that...
 
These are the sorts of animals I would like in my private zoo.

It's unfortunate that people like this can continue to operate anywhere, especially in Australia.

Something needs to be done in the immediate future.

Does anyone know how the Elephans from the Ashton Circus died?

I'm interested to know if most of these Circus animals die from natural causes or if it's due to animal cruelty.
 
I don't know of any circuses with chimps anymore. This is interesting, or is it made up anim lib bull??? As for the Ashton's girls, Gigi is now with Stadust and Tanya and Abu both died before homes were found for them, Abu I believe from liver related age problems and Tanya from something similar. Definately not cruelty. Also Blake, I don't like your chances getting ex circus animals as there are now only two travelling with exotics and both are owned by Janlin Circuses.... the lennons won't sell their animals.
 
May I add a little comment to this discussion, without being bashed by both sides? Thanks in advance ;)

1. "The" circus as it is today is a bit of a relict of the past, especially of the mid-19th and early/mid-20th century (the "golden" circus age of the 1920s)-actually a lot like "the" zoo. With the public attitude in the industrialized countries torwards animals and nature changing during the last decades, zoo and circus were forced to change to fit to these newer expectations of their audience. While zoos were able to put forward that their goals among the mere entertainment included education and scientific research (see Hedigers "Concept of a modern Zoo"), circuses had no similar "fig leaf" to hide their entertainment-based character behind and thus became somehow "politically incorrect" especially among the more intellectual parts of society. While some circuses tried and still try to put more emphasis on educating their audience ("A tiger can jump up to 10 meters/30 feet!") or get into captive breeding programmes(RB's elephant breeding farm), others went the other way, stepping away from the animal show character to focus more on artistic and special effects as well as combing circus tricks with cultural events to please intellectuals-the "Cirque nouveau" ("Cirque de Soleil", Witzigman's Palazzo etc.). The circus as such is at the moment trying to find its future identity-which means that there are at the same time old-fashioned animal shows, new purely artistic, "flashy" shows as well as combinations of them around. In Europe, circuses have quite an old tradition, though they also have in recent years more and more problems to stay alive as a business. TV shows like "Stars in the Ring" where TV stars perform for one night or public International circus collaborations/competitions are some of the ways to gain younger circus audience.
2. Keeping the situation mentioned in 1. in mind, one can understand why there are so hardened and highly emotional fronts even on this forum when it comes to the subject "circus". Some of the posts here almost remind me of a witch-hunt against circuses in general, with the usual debasing of each other being overly prominent. As far as I can judge, a less emotional and more rational and friendly discussion would be more helpful for all involved.
Yes, there are plenty of examples of bad animal husbandry in circuses. Yes, there are animals that are not suited for circuses due to several reasons. And yes, the housing of the animals might arouse aggression and harsh criticism, yet shouldn't lead to becoming unobjective.
But zoos have the very same problems when it comes to animal husbandry, too; it's sometimes just the "nicer package" around that makes the grievances less visible:
The exhibits might look large and naturalistic-but the actual "space" the animal can use for its natural behaviour quite often isn't. This is especially true for the night quarters, enclosures for surplus animals, aviaries, Great Ape exhibits or the enclosures for male specimen (take a look at some of the areas for male deer, wild donkeys, antelopes etc.). The public bareness, "nudeness" of the circus cages makes it easier even for the untrained eye to see disadvantages and mistakes-wheras the zoo exhibit with some areas not visible for the public can conceal some flaws.
This doesn't mean that all zoo exhibits are bad or comparable to circus cages-not at all; this should just be food for thoughts.
3. Stereotypical behaviour is a problem encountered in almost every animal husbandry system - including zoos and circuses. According to one theory, the output of endorphins produced by the body due to pacing, weaving, feather plugging, crip biting...seems to be a way to cope with boredom and/or stress; You can even see this in Your fellow human beings. Just look how many around You bite their nails, stim/ seesaw with their legs, scratch oneself all the time, nose-pick...I'm not sure whether the increase of pacing (seen also in zoos when the food is delivered or the zookeeper approaches) is a sign of happiness (similar to the pet dogs that can't wait to go outdoors once someone grabs the leash) or stress; what I can say is that the physical and psychological merit of a good training which does not demand unnatural and harmful activities from the animal can be very helpful for both the animal and the staff as well as entertaining for the public and thus is indeed a valuable addition to the still way too often neglected aspect of the behavioural enrichment for zoo animals. Experiences and knowledge derived from circus training has proven to be of high value when using these technicques. The "soft" animal training made popular by the Hagenbeck circus, which is and should be the standard now in modern circuses, as well as other knowledge derived from circuses (think how Hagenbeck determined the size of moans for big cat enclosures) has become common knowledge in zoos (though obviously not in the case of SF). Hagenbeck itself is a good example for the close historical bonding zoos had(have) with the circus business.

All in all, the situation of "the" circus in modern society is changing; the circus of the old days with its animal shows faces at least in the western society a destiny similar to that of many highly endangered species. But unlike these creatures, one should not try to keep the old circus scheme alive, but improve and adapt the concept of a circus to modern times-even if this might mean an animal-free circus or a circus with "just" domestic, yet neverless equally well-cared for animals. Inadequate animal husbandry in circuses should be rightfully criticised and abolished or at least improved; the same is true for all animal husbandries, may they be zoos, farms or Your very own pet.
However, one should not fall for the mindless, unobjective, often unprofessional and fanatical rant of the anti-circus lobby, as these people often cause in their ignorance more harm than good and have the tendency to enlarge their anthropomorphising point of view to Your beloved local zoo...

In a certain way, zoo and circus are both siblings from the same era and epoche where people had other attitudes torwards animals and entertainment. Instead of imitating Cain and Abel, zoo fans should rather help the circus to find its 21st century identity (maybe the "Cirque nouveau"?) by constructive criticism, by improving the momentary husbandry of circus animals and ultimately finding new accommodations for the circus animals.
In my opinion, the problem of exotic animals in circuses in western societies is going to be solved by itself anyway; the high costs for an adequate husbandry according to modern standards as well as legal restraints will make it more and more difficult for the already financially struggeling circuses to afford and maintain exotic animal shows, resulting into the animal shows gradually going out of business. This will consequently lead to the question where the last "unemployed" circus exotics will then finally end up. Hopefully not like the little bear in Klabund's short story "The Bear"...

Circus fans and people in the circus business should not be too starry-eyed when it comes to short-comings of their animal husbandry; but neither should zoo fans when it comes to zoos. Gridlocked attitudes, hostility and emotionality have never benefited a discussion-or animals.
 
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There are some strong points here in regards to animal nightquarters in zoos. Even the most elaborate, expensive, expansive and enlightening exhibits usually have miniature holding cells behind the scenes. Zoo patrons wander between lush, tropical jungles and densely-planted forests believing that their particular zoo of choice is a wonder to behold. Little do most people know that many animals spend half their lives in cramped, concrete, sterile, barren little boxes.

In northern zoos I've documented on this website how many animals spend insane amounts of time within their barns, houses, and prison cells. Lucy the solitary elephant at Edmonton's Valley Zoo spends 75-80% of her time (an official study was published at Zoocheck Canada) in an awful, tiny barn. Zoo visitors often don't realize how much time the animals spend locked away in inclement climates, and when people visit the zoo in the summer season there is no mention of the horribly cold winter months.

The use of electric fence and hotwire is another contentious issue for many zoo fans. What is the point of having clicking electric wire draped around many trees and bushes in lush exhibits, as such was the case in the gorilla exhibit when I visited Melbourne Zoo earlier this year. Even zoological behemoths such as the San Diego Zoo frequently use hotwire to keep animals from the edge of exhibits, or to protect plants so that zoo visitors can marvel at the lushness of a particular exhibit. The "gorilla kingdom" with its disparate group of 3 gorillas at London Zoo is a massive improvement over the old ape house, but what is the deal with all of the hotwire? It is unappealing to look at and demeans the entire exhibit.
 
due to the transient nature of circus', they will never be able to provide this to any of their animals. place on top of this the finacial issues most suffer and it all makes for a bunch of highly stressed, unhappy animals who often don't even have their basic medical and dietry requirements catered for let alone their mental and physical health.

To me thats the pertinent point right there, by their nature they cannot provide adequately for exotics, it really is that simple... All you can learn from watching these animals in a circus is the Elephant is big, the Lion is scary and its OK to treat animals poorly... I don't need to see to see a Tiger jump 10 m to know it can do it, I can read it in a reputable book...

@Sun Wukong: Sorry Sun I know were going at it a bit in another thread, I truthfully am here to learn rather than argue but...

Did I read you correctly..?

That zoo's have the ability to "dress up" their main aim of exhibiting captive animals for entainment with a feigned interest in conservation, research and education while circuses cannot and this is major reason while people in general are more supportive of zoo's and more condemning of circuses..? Maybe I've been spoiled by visiting excellent zoo's in Aus and NZ but I do believe that is a steaming pile of crap...

Maybe Perth Zoo has released over 500 Numbats back into the wild in a effort to pull the wool over our eyes...

Maybe Auckland Zoo has housed over 150 Kiwi chicks taken from the wild and returned them there when they are strong enough to fight for themselves at great expense never exhibiting them in a clever ruse...

(Insert remainder of conservation list)

Maybe zoo's place the elaborate, sometimes expensive signs and interactive education displays for fun to see how many people they can fool into thinking they care about educating the public...

(Insert remainder of education list)

@All: Can any one name an endangered species bred by a Circus, was this RB breeding centre Sun spoke of successful..? Can anyone name an animal that has gone from a Circus to the Wild..?

Patrick you are definitely right, the day of Aus/NZ circuses with exotics are numbered, I went to Cirque de Soliel (sp?) last year and it blew my mind... Like Glyn you couldn't force me to a Circus with forced exotic animal performances...
 
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@NZ Jeremy: "steaming pile of 'explicit'"-oh my, we're becoming informal...No, unfortunately, the comparison to feces isn't all too correct.
1. Once again, the judging from Your personal point of view isn't valid as a good discussion point. Arguing that YOU can do fine without watching animals perform isn't a valid argument in a rational discussion; it's just the expression of Your personal opinion. Otherwise, an "anti-zoo'er" could state the same in connection to zoos and use this as an argument to demand the closure of all zoos. If possible, one should back-up this personal emotion with a rational argument. For example, I don't like (sic!) the often seen display of certain birds of prey in small cages; my rational argument would be a possible correlation with the lack of movement and certain illnesses like "Bumble feet".
2. Yes, You read correctly; there is quite a difference between what many zoos say what they do conservation-and education-wise and what they actually do. This discrepance is often illustrated by comparing the expenditures of zoos on new attractions to the money spent on the conservation and education department. This problem is not just one loved to be picked up by the anti-zoo lobby; even pro-zoo'ers like David Hancocks (he dedicated quite a few pages in his book "A Different Nature" on that subject) or the ZGAP (an European conservation society) and even the WAZA addressed this several times. Dr. William Conway partly illustrated this by writing his shortstory: "How to exhibit a bullfrog: A bedtime story for zoo men" decades ago. Naming a new chimp zoo exhibit "Wildlife Rescue & Conservation Center" doesn't mean that said zoo actually does or has to do anything in this direction; it's just "window-dressing". Compared to the numbers of zoos around and the possibilities they could have, 500 numbats or 150 kiwis is just a (though a very, very positive) drop in the oceans.
It's nice to hear that Your excellent NZ zoos don't seem to follow said path -at least according to Your testimony; gradually, more and more zoos try to follow this example, yet nevertheless the output conservation/education-wise could be much more. And it's not that the zoos are "mean and greedy"-most often, it's the attitude of the paying customer that is the source of this and many other problems. Your expensive signs are hardly than ever read, the interactive displays just toyed with and the overal education output by zoos has been measured to be not that impressive at all (a fact anti-zoo'ers love to mention, even though they forget the long-term emotional imprint-a favourite of Yours-a good zoo education program/ animal contact can have especially on kids).
3. There are quite a few endangered species that have bred in circuses-lions, tigers, elephants are just some prominent examples. Breeding nevertheless doesn't consequently indicate good husbandry in all species, and shouldn't be put forward as an argument pro circuses-or zoos, either; after all, lions are supposed to have bred even in the Tower of London...How many "zoo" tigers. lions, elephants or gorillas have been reintroduced, could be a counterquestion; yet I won't ask it, as it doesn't lead to anything futile. "RB", in the case You don't know, stands for "Ringling Brothers".

BTW: Could You do me a favour? Before starting to reply to anything I now wrote down, please take a deep breath, let "the emotions out" and then start to write. Your last post came over a little too agitated and "superheated"-at least in my opinion. You don't have to try to persuade me of the positive effects of zoos-that's as unnecessary as trying to baptise a reverend/priest or that fellow in Rome...;) (Insert reminder of trying to maintain a formal & friendly discussion)

Back to orginal topic: Startdust Elephants
 
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Remember that this thread is about an Australian Circus in Particular. We have laws and standards. How many of you knew that seals can legally be kept by circuses in NSW??? I would not be surprised to see circuses with lions and monkeys around for quite some time. While elephants will soon be gone the lennon family still has their property with their retiremnent facilities. But what is also on this property. Animals the circus use to breed. They are now in their 12th generation of circus lions and these guys are all around two or three years old. don't get too excited about it yet.
 
Alrighty everyone, So back on topic, The elephants at Stardust, what are their names again? where did they come from? ;)
 
@ Sun Wukong: Your points are taken and well received...

I apologise if I was overtly agressive, I took your "Fig leaf" statement in the artistic sense, an artifical fabrication and flew off the hook a bit...
 
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