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Let me start by saying that I understand the logic behind the way objectives were prioritized by the SG and I completely agree with the rationale. Captive breeding is not a higher priority than objectives that solve the root problem: reducing demand, raising awareness, protecting wild strongholds, etc. However, they do list it as a priority, with its own cost and timeframe. It seems that they intend to include it as one component of the overall plan, and that's how I see it as well: captive breeding should supplement other forms of pangolin conservation, not replace them or even overshadow them.

Perhaps captive breeding will not be what saves pangolins; perhaps it will not even help them. But if their numbers continue to drop and the other conservation measures that are being developed are not enough to keep wild populations from collapsing, ex situ management may become increasingly necessary. Should we wait until then to develop protocols and husbandry expertise for captive breeding?

Apologies if my previous post was unclear on this point. Developing conservation breeding protocols is a component of the plan (although assigned the lowest priority rating), but at "established conservation centres". That's one thing. Extending those efforts to new locations, including zoos in Europe and the US, is quite another. No mention is made of this in the plan, hence Leipzig's import is not recommended.

Surely advocates of a pangolin breeding program (namely you and TeaLovingDave) should be arguing that the resources to put pangolins on display in Europe would be better utilized improving established conservation centres, as recommended by the Pangolin Specialist Group. There's no reason the ex situ work you want to see couldn't be carried out solely in Asia.

Why exactly is Taipei's breeding record "iffy"? (Even if it is, I would not be surprised; they are the premier institution that is developing husbandry protocol for them. Much of that is usually done through trial-and-error, and the word error is part of that phrase for good reason.)

Taking the last decade into account, and assuming TeaLovingDave will correct my figures if they're wrong, the zoo had 8.8 pangolins in 2007 and currently has >20. During that time, only four were conceived and born at Taipei. Certainly a step forward (as are the efforts of Nandankanan, Singapore, and a few other places), but hardly a solid basis for a sustainable captive population.

I also thought this development was odd given how recently the PAX Tag recommended against it. Without knowing who spearheaded the import and what justifications they had, all I would have to offer is conjecture on that front.

Likewise. Given the circumstances, I think my conjecture is best avoided.

Although housed within the Elephant House - the main body of which could fairly be termed high-traffic - the basement area in which the pangolins are displayed is *much* quieter and encounters rather lower levels of footfall; when I visited the collection, the area in question was entirely empty when we initially entered in order to find out when the feeding time would be, and even when the advertised "elephant bathing" and pangolin feed happened there were perhaps only a dozen people in the basement. As such, I suspect the pangolin exhibit was the *quietest* part of the zoo!

I addressed most of your post above, but some specific points…

Your experience of the Elephant House sounds time-specific; the situation in summer is rather different. Nonetheless, given that you didn't challenge the rest of that sentence, I assume you'd concede my point: that conditions aren't ideal for the conservation breeding program you're imagining. To state the obvious, the quietest part of the zoo would have been off-exhibit.

As discussed in the below thread, the Vaquita looks doomed if captive breeding programmes are not established or, having been established, fail; however I believe this will be too little, too late for the species as the wild population really *is* too low to allow for trial and error.

Captive Breeding for Vaquitas?

In other words, if we want a depressing example of what happens if you leave any attempt at starting a captive breeding programme until the very last minute *after* in-situ programmes have failed, with no husbandry expertise having already been developed, I fear that we will be able to point to the Vaquita in years to come.

These cases are non-equivalent in just about every way (direct exploitation vs. bycatch, one country vs. bilateral, small vs. declining pop. paradigm, etc.). However, if your analogy was supposed to illustrate that conservation efforts sometimes start too late… Well, duh.

Since we're on the topic, even your hindsight isn't a wonderful thing. If the Mexican government enforced a total ban on gillnets in the 1990s, the vaquita's predicament probably wouldn't be hopeless. This is a prime example of the failure of in situ conservation. Attempting to establish an ex situ breeding program would have been unnecessary, expensive, deeply controversial, near-impossible logistically, potentially detrimental to in situ efforts, and unlikely to succeed. It would also (and does also) raise serious welfare concerns. This is something I wish you considered before writing off losses as "trial-and-error" and celebrating the import of every new husbandry-challenged species for vacuous notions of "conservation". If nothing else, it makes your derision of @Bib Fortuna's purported dogmatism more than a little hypocritical. Speaking of Bib, he does have a habit of disappearing when challenged, doesn't he?

The long and short: ex situ conservation requires better justification than "the wild population's falling, let's give it a go". Returning to pangolins, I think the authorities cited above are more convincing than your faith in half-baked breeding programs. And you never responded about that beer ;)
 
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To state the obvious, the quietest part of the zoo would have been off-exhibit.

You'll be pleased to hear that last I heard, the new imports *are* off-exhibit and will remain so. For what it is worth, if a hypothetical import of a dozen pangolins came into European collections I *would* be happier if they remained offshow in dedicated breeding facilities until such time as there were surplus individuals which could be displayed as ambassadors, much as was done for Iberian Lynx and is now being done for Javan Green Magpie - despite what you seem to think, being able to see them is entirely secondary.

As such I am pleased the new pair is offshow.

Speaking of Bib, he does have a habit of disappearing when challenged, doesn't he?

Indeed, sometimes starting a new account altogether when people have tired of his present one; this being one reason, along with the fact he likes to post information long after being corrected, and the fact I have interacted with him in person that I have little patience for him.

And you never responded about that beer

Seldom drink alcohol :p but I *would* be very happy to meet you at some point and have a nice long natter over a drink of some form; we may be pretty opposed on this particular point but I suspect we'd get along quite well on many other discussion points. I've certainly found its a lot easier to discuss contentious issues when you can hear someone's tone of voice and see their body language :) though as alluded above you do get the occasional exception!
 
You'll be pleased to hear that last I heard, the new imports *are* off-exhibit and will remain so. For what it is worth, if a hypothetical import of a dozen pangolins came into European collections I *would* be happier if they remained offshow in dedicated breeding facilities until such time as there were surplus individuals which could be displayed as ambassadors, much as was done for Iberian Lynx and is now being done for Javan Green Magpie - despite what you seem to think, being able to see them is entirely secondary.

As such I am pleased the new pair is offshow.

Good to hear on both counts.

Indeed, sometimes starting a new account altogether when people have tired of his present one; this being one reason, along with the fact he likes to post information long after being corrected, and the fact I have interacted with him in person that I have little patience for him.

Unfortunate really, given that a) he knows his stuff on some subjects, and b) I agree with him.

Seldom drink alcohol :p but I *would* be very happy to meet you at some point and have a nice long natter over a drink of some form; we may be pretty opposed on this particular point but I suspect we'd get along quite well on many other discussion points. I've certainly found its a lot easier to discuss contentious issues when you can hear someone's tone of voice and see their body language :) though as alluded above you do get the occasional exception!

Agreed. Barring the occasional blip, I enjoy our differences of opinion. Life would be very dull if everyone agreed with me and pretty exasperating if everyone agreed with you. As it happens, I've even been known to enjoy the occasional Earl Grey…
 
Surely advocates of a pangolin breeding program (namely you and TeaLovingDave) should be arguing that the resources to put pangolins on display in Europe would be better utilized improving established conservation centres, as recommended by the Pangolin Specialist Group. There's no reason the ex situ work you want to see couldn't be carried out solely in Asia.

Yes, the captive breeding could theoretically just be carried out in Asia, and if that's the best course of action I don't really have a problem with that idea. I'm not sure why it matters where the conservation centers are located. If it's cheaper and more effective to set it up in range countries, then I would agree on that being a good course of action. However, there are reasons that zoos in Europe and North America could be considered for participation: 1, many institutions already have knowledgeable, educated, and well-trained keepers and veterinary staff that could be trained to care for them; 2, it might be (but might not be) cheaper to use existing facilities there to breed pangolins than to construct new facilities in Asia; 3, it could provide a buffer against a possible demographic catastrophe by spreading the population across many institutions and multiple continents; 4, as TLD said, if the program were to ever reach a point of sustainability they could put animals on exhibit or in education programs as ambassadors for their endangered kin (also like TLD, I don't actually care if pangolins are kept on display or not- I think it would be nice, but we're not to that point yet and it's really not necessary); 5, it might entice more institutions, whether they keep pangolins or not, to contribute conservation money that could pay for additional in situ measures.

Taking the last decade into account, and assuming TeaLovingDave will correct my figures if they're wrong, the zoo had 8.8 pangolins in 2007 and currently has >20. During that time, only four were conceived and born at Taipei. Certainly a step forward (as are the efforts of Nandankanan, Singapore, and a few other places), but hardly a solid basis for a sustainable captive population.

I agree that it's a step forward, but perhaps not the quick progress that is really needed if they are to succeed. I wouldn't have expected them to have already developed a sustainable captive population at this stage, but that's definitely the end goal and I think there is much more progress to be made. Again, I don't know enough about pangolin husbandry or captive breeding programs in general to have an informed opinion about their success or lack thereof, so I guess I'll leave it at that.

It's certainly a disputable topic and I think a lot of good arguments could be made from either side. I enjoy debating it because there's certainly a lot to take into account, and I prefer to have informed rather than ignorant opinions about these things that matter. And I agree that if everyone just agreed with me or with someone else on things, it would be quite boring; not only that, but it would be counterproductive. Disagreement and debate breeds innovation and creativity.

You two have fun drinking your beers together :p I'll toast you from across the pond...
 
Are there some new ideas about the future of gorillas in Taipei?
Breeding possibilities? Additional females? Other groep structure?
 
Are there some new ideas about the future of gorillas in Taipei?
Breeding possibilities? Additional females? Other groep structure?

As a gorilla should not be housed for a long term alone, which gorillas will be send to Taipei?

What are the housing facilities at the moment in Taipei Zoo for the two gorillas?
Are they often together?
 
Is silverback BaoBao already in training for his transport, coming months?

How is his physical condition?
How is his mental condition?
How are his social skills?
 
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