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Bib Fortuna said:
Wht do you mean with successfully ? How many were born and bred there, how many raised, and in which generation they bred there ? I bet, if they had birts, they came from pregant wild imported animals, so how the two first births at Taipei, and altough the zoo has the most experience in keeping them, no of the young survived...So zoos are far, far away in succesfully breeding of pangolins-and how many pangolins has died, before the first in cptivity bred animla were born, but not raised ? Tons of them.Sucessfully ?
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Can you provide further details of the said non-raising of the earlier pangolins babies at Taipeh Zoo?



@vogelcommando just posted a link informing us the mother of the current offspring lacked sufficient milk for the baby and so the - IMO right - decision was taken to hand raise the offspring instead.

I wonder if the same thing happened with the earlier offspring? That could have been a contributing factor in - by you - purported non raising.

For what it is worth, I get the impression that at Taipeh Zoo staff invest heavily in the pangolin breeding program and till this moment find no basis that all of the said breedings were from WC mothers that were already pregnant on arrival. It seemed to me the current offspring is from a female who has been a considerable time in captivity.


BTW: in India there is another zoo with good experience of breeding and raising pangolins. Nandankanan Zoo in Bhubaneswar had a population of 8 Indian pangolins, of which 4 were born and bred since 2009 at the zoo.

As this zoo info dates back to September 2013, so 1 or 2 more might have been born in the interval.
 
A female clouded leopard has arrived in Taipei Zoo to partner with a male from Thailand.

In separate news, male gorilla Djeeco has arrived a few weeks ago from Opole Zoo.
 
A captive pangolin polulation in germany ? Where ? 4 Animals are a"Polulation"? But I'm looking forward to the first breedinng, which shouldn't be far yway from today. Taipei has a big experince in keeing and breeding pangolins-they raised one baby pangolin by bottle feeding, one -so I think,the species can be saved by ex-situ breeding.
 
Populations can start very small, so yes 4 animals ARE a population and by bringing in more animals to a few more zoos this population can and will grow in the near future.
By raising one baby pangolin by bottle feeding I don't think you can save the species but surtainly its a start and there have also been natural raisings at Taipei and with those experience I hope other zoos will also be succesfull in the near future !
 
And how many pangolins must be imported to build up a Population" without any breeding ? Every year 100 pangolins, 200 pangolins, 500 pangolins ? This is the true way of"conservation", isn't it ?
 
Bib Fortuna said:
Taipei has a big experince in keeing and breeding pangolins-they raised one baby pangolin by bottle feeding, one -so I think,the species can be saved by ex-situ breeding.
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Bib Fortuna said:
And how many pangolins must be imported to build up a Population" without any breeding ? Every year 100 pangolins, 200 pangolins, 500 pangolins ? This is the true way of"conservation", isn't it ?
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Taipei have successfully bred multiple pangolin and in point of fact are now breeding f3 individuals - not just the single breeding you repeatedly refer to, as you very well know :p the topic having arisen on several prior occasions, most recently less than a month ago!

Your disingenuous tendency to "forget" information when it suits your purposes can be quite tiresome!
 
Bib Fortuna said:
And how many pangolins must be imported to build up a Population" without any breeding ? Every year 100 pangolins, 200 pangolins, 500 pangolins ? This is the true way of"conservation", isn't it ?
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For captive breeding, yes, that is the "true" way. You import animals until the population can sustain itself from captive births. There is a fair chance that it will not be successful; however, given the rate at which they are being harvested in the wild, leaving them where they are doesn't seem like a much better option.

Bib, since it is well-established how critical you are of this idea, I'd be interested to hear what counter-proposals and alternative solutions you have in mind for how to help these animals. And I sincerely mean that, not out of contempt or criticism, but out of genuine interest in different viewpoints :)
 
Coelacanth18 said:
For captive breeding, yes, that is the "true" way. You import animals until the population can sustain itself from captive births. There is a fair chance that it will not be successful; however, given the rate at which they are being harvested in the wild, leaving them where they are doesn't seem like a much better option.

Bib, since it is well-established how critical you are of this idea, I'd be interested to hear what counter-proposals and alternative solutions you have in mind for how to help these animals. And I sincerely mean that, not out of contempt or criticism, but out of genuine interest in different viewpoints :)
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Because you asked politely, and speaking as another established critic, permit me a few thoughts.

Assuming on this occasion that pangolins do justify the resources, even the IUCN SSC Pangolin Specialist Group gave the development of captive breeding protocols its lowest priority rating. Further, this was aimed at existing conservation centres; its Action Plan doesn't even mention the intervention of European/US zoos, despite the group being based at one (hint: it ain't Leipzig).

For better alternatives, see here: http://cmsdata.iucn.org/downloads/scaling_up_pangolin_conservation_280714_v4.pdf.

And for a zoo working on better alternatives, see: Pangolin conservation

I've previously been chastised for questioning Leipzig advocates' understanding of the issues at play, so instead I'll just state facts. One of the busiest zoos in Europe put a pair on-exhibit, with no natural light, in a high-traffic section. Imports are not recommended by the PangolinSG's Action Plan. Whilst the zoo they originated from has made major strides, their breeding record remains iffy at best.

So, my opinion: the onus is on those who support this move to offer a sound justification, rather than those of us against.



As for the AZA imports, I do hope they were done because the PAX TAG (unbeknown to me) reversed its position on the issue.
 
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Giant Panda said:
Because you asked politely, and speaking as another established critic, permit me a few thoughts.

Assuming on this occasion that pangolins do justify the resources, even the IUCN SSC Pangolin Specialist Group gave the development of captive breeding protocols its lowest priority rating. Further, this was aimed at existing conservation centres; its Action Plan doesn't even mention the intervention of European/US zoos, despite the group being based at one (hint: it ain't Leipzig).

For better alternatives, see here: http://cmsdata.iucn.org/downloads/scaling_up_pangolin_conservation_280714_v4.pdf.

And for a zoo working on better alternatives, see: Pangolin conservation

I've previously been chastised for questioning Leipzig advocates' understanding of the issues at play, so instead I'll just state facts. One of the busiest zoos in Europe put a pair on-exhibit, with no natural light, in a high-traffic section. Imports are not recommended by the PangolinSG's Action Plan. Whilst the zoo they originated from has made major strides, their breeding record remains iffy at best.

So, my opinion: the onus is on those who support this move to offer a sound justification, rather than those of us against.

As for the AZA imports, I do hope they were done because the PAX TAG (unbeknown to me) reversed its position on the issue.
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Of course I am glad to hear your thoughts Giant Panda. Additionally, I'd like to commend you on the sources you offered: I always find that I am in need of more reading on countless subjects, and I enjoy doing so.

Let me start by saying that I understand the logic behind the way objectives were prioritized by the SG and I completely agree with the rationale. Captive breeding is not a higher priority than objectives that solve the root problem: reducing demand, raising awareness, protecting wild strongholds, etc. However, they do list it as a priority, with its own cost and timeframe. It seems that they intend to include it as one component of the overall plan, and that's how I see it as well: captive breeding should supplement other forms of pangolin conservation, not replace them or even overshadow them.

Perhaps captive breeding will not be what saves pangolins; perhaps it will not even help them. But if their numbers continue to drop and the other conservation measures that are being developed are not enough to keep wild populations from collapsing, ex situ management may become increasingly necessary. Should we wait until then to develop protocols and husbandry expertise for captive breeding? I think we should do it now while the populations can still sustain losses, while the other conservation measures are doing what they can, and while we still have the time and resources to figure things out via trial-and-error. Perhaps (hopefully) it will not be necessary, but if it turns out to be, we should have that option ready to roll out at a moment's notice.

Why exactly is Taipei's breeding record "iffy"? (Even if it is, I would not be surprised; they are the premier institution that is developing husbandry protocol for them. Much of that is usually done through trial-and-error, and the word error is part of that phrase for good reason.)

I also thought this development was odd given how recently the PAX Tag recommended against it. Without knowing who spearheaded the import and what justifications they had, all I would have to offer is conjecture on that front.
 
Giant Panda said:
One of the busiest zoos in Europe put a pair on-exhibit, with no natural light, in a high-traffic section.
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Although housed within the Elephant House - the main body of which could fairly be termed high-traffic - the basement area in which the pangolins are displayed is *much* quieter and encounters rather lower levels of footfall; when I visited the collection, the area in question was entirely empty when we initially entered in order to find out when the feeding time would be, and even when the advertised "elephant bathing" and pangolin feed happened there were perhaps only a dozen people in the basement. As such, I suspect the pangolin exhibit was the *quietest* part of the zoo!

Giant Panda said:
Whilst the zoo they originated from has made major strides, their breeding record remains iffy at best.
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I'd also be interested in how exactly one would define Taipei's breeding record as "iffy".

Giant Panda said:
the onus is on those who support this move to offer a sound justification, rather than those of us against.
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I think the below post by Coelacanth more or less echoes my opinion on the matter:

Coelacanth18 said:
But if their numbers continue to drop and the other conservation measures that are being developed are not enough to keep wild populations from collapsing, ex situ management may become increasingly necessary. Should we wait until then to develop protocols and husbandry expertise for captive breeding? I think we should do it now while the populations can still sustain losses, while the other conservation measures are doing what they can, and while we still have the time and resources to figure things out via trial-and-error.
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As discussed in the below thread, the Vaquita looks doomed if captive breeding programmes are not established or, having been established, fail; however I believe this will be too little, too late for the species as the wild population really *is* too low to allow for trial and error.

Captive Breeding for Vaquitas?

In other words, if we want a depressing example of what happens if you leave any attempt at starting a captive breeding programme until the very last minute *after* in-situ programmes have failed, with no husbandry expertise having already been developed, I fear that we will be able to point to the Vaquita in years to come.
 
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