Taronga Zoo Taronga's Elephants and other news!!!

patrick said:
glyn and jelle - remember, these animals have been in australia for all of a couple of years - hardly long enough to start touting an excellent foot-health record or psychological wellbeing let alone calling tarongas breeding program a success and melbournes a failure.

doing so seems a little foolish to me.

on the dubbo debate, once again. the counter argument to "but they can't be housed safely at dubbo due to disease risk" that taronga should never have gotten more asian elephants in the first place.
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hi patrick,

We agree to disagree ... I guess. :D

Regarding the Dubbo fracas with elies. I was and AM totally against the housing of surplus Asians at that facility due to the risk of herpes virus transmission. Indeed, these should never have been there in the first place.
 
i dont think taronga zoo is looking bad at all. the program is enjoying high levels of community support, though obviously Yassa, as youre in germany this would be hard for you to guage. so far there are no petitions, people protesting at the enclosure etc, and big business and the community continue to back the zoo. its really not as bad as you might think, or be led to think. and tarongas attendance continues to grow.
whist ever the risk of air-borne transmission of elephant herpes is unestablished the suggestion of relocating the program to dubbo borders on ridiculous. potentially infect these 5 animals and not only do all 5 animals become infected carriers or potential carriers, future births are at risk too.
if australian zoos are to have a breeding program for asian elephants, and they now do dubbo is probably the last zoo id put them in. the elephant enclosures at dubbo are ideal for old animals or animals retired from a breeding program, but as they are adjoining there is no justification for risking these valuable animals reproductive health.
Patrick, you say Taronga should never have got these elephants. thats fair enough, your entitled to your point of view, but they did, the enclosure is about to be doubled in size, one cow is pregnant and so far no allegations have centred on the animals showing stereotypical behaviours. its just the Greens having another shot and once again they have the zoos on the defence which annoys me because if Taronga Zoo was going to be getting air time id rather it be for all the good work theyre doing, such as their participation in the recovery of 3 threatened amphibian species across the state rather than stupid allegations over elephants age. in surprised the Greens didnt allege this earlier and since they lost their chance and didnt prove anything in the courts its about time they shut the **** up.
 
doubled in size-------i meant the bull yard expansion. which does effectively give the elephants more space although i still think its what taronga is doing with the space it has already is exciting, ie births.
 
@glyn: I always enjoy reading your messages here at ZooBeat, you are obviously very passionate about your hometown zoo, and I personally think that Taronga is one of the best zoos that I've ever been to. Also, I read the extensive report on the Asian elephants and it appears that the decision to bring them over from SE Asia has been a massive success. The enrichment and husbandry sections of the report were full of glowing terms, and so I agree with your many messages that praise and defend the Taronga Zoo's elephant program.

Having said all of that, there is one thing that irks me to no end. The enclosure is simply too damn small. There are backyards larger than the current elephant exhibit, and Gung's expanded living space will only affect some of the females some of the time. Ten years from now elephant activists will be asking for all zoos to have 5 acres of more for elephants, not the puny amount of space that Taronga has allocated to its herd. The zoo should have looked to the future and made the exhibit triple the size that it currently is.
 
It becomes more and more ... ahum superficial. I think glyn is right on this and the Greens simply do not have any concrete evidence of wrongdoing or whatever. They just wish that the elephants would not feel at home and die of boredom or whatever. I just find this whole episode laughable at best and sad the same time when they would better put all their efforts into pumping sufficient resources into elephant conservation at large (if they were to do something meaningful for the survival of Elephas maximus for a change). No instead they blabber on about a small group of city elephants and forget the bigger picture (what about the dire situation for the 3,000-4,000 wild elephants in Thailand?)

The only downside to the Taronga elephant exhibit is its size. I would rather have the female outside yards and the bull exhibit entwinned. Yet I am all against cutting up the zoo for just a single species. Whatever happened to giving every species a just place in the zoo (several already have had to move because of the widening of the elephant exhibit). So, to me it is just sizewise, and I DO understand that a city zoo like Taronga does not have acres of space (lying about spare somewhere .... :p). BUT, Taronga is better suited to having these high profile animals than Dubbo (the latter simply does not and never will get the people influx going big time). Education wise the Taronga siting is fine too.

The suggestions to move them to Dubbo is just preposterous, only if and when the old African cows would move away from WPZ and the elephant house and yards would be totally remodelled would it make any sense of turning the place into an Asian elephant conservation center.

I rest my case and pillow .... :rolleyes:
 
snowleopard said:
@glyn: I always enjoy reading your messages here at ZooBeat, you are obviously very passionate about your hometown zoo, and I personally think that Taronga is one of the best zoos that I've ever been to. Also, I read the extensive report on the Asian elephants and it appears that the decision to bring them over from SE Asia has been a massive success. The enrichment and husbandry sections of the report were full of glowing terms, and so I agree with your many messages that praise and defend the Taronga Zoo's elephant program.

Having said all of that, there is one thing that irks me to no end. The enclosure is simply too damn small. There are backyards larger than the current elephant exhibit, and Gung's expanded living space will only affect some of the females some of the time. Ten years from now elephant activists will be asking for all zoos to have 5 acres of more for elephants, not the puny amount of space that Taronga has allocated to its herd. The zoo should have looked to the future and made the exhibit triple the size that it currently is.
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ahhh snowleopard. exactly!!!!!

i think i love you.
 
oh and on a brighter note...

*patrick removes his anti-urban elephant boxing gloves*

jelle and glyn, i went to melbourne yesterday and got a mega-update on how things are going there re: breeding. i'll post it on my melbourne visits thread......
 
Hi patrick,

Love to hear from you re Melbourne's progress with eles.

I really like the discussion on Taronga as you can see. We may not agree on each bullet point, but well sure the enclosure size is not up to current standards (required minimum area standards in Elephas maximus EEP that is).

Re Taronga's eles, I am at odds there ... I do generally find that the exhibit size required these days for elephant exhibits is detrimental to the general task that zoos have in maintaining sufficient stocks of less high profile endangered species. I agree there with you that Dubbo would be a better place, yet that has several downs to it to: the elderly "unsociables" Asians and the Africans (herpes transmission, high risk of calf mortality in the Asians).

Cheers,

Jelle
 
yeah its a fierce topic. but something my opinion has grown stronger over through the years. i think its hard to be a fence sitter on this one, even within the industry it seems to have people divided.

it absolutely kills me, believe me that i so passionately hate some of the things done by my favorite place in the world.

but i just do.

and i'm so positively and stubbornly sure of my beliefs.
 
patrick said:
yeah its a fierce topic. but something my opinion has grown stronger over through the years. i think its hard to be a fence sitter on this one, even within the industry it seems to have people divided.

it absolutely kills me, believe me that i so passionately hate some of the things done by my favorite place in the world.

but i just do.

and i'm so positively and stubbornly sure of my beliefs.
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Thisis what I meant about bias Patrick. It's not a 'bad' bias but definately one. Mine is that I always want to give the zoos the benefit of the doubt, even when they deserve it.
 
jay said:
Thisis what I meant about bias Patrick. It's not a 'bad' bias but definately one. Mine is that I always want to give the zoos the benefit of the doubt, even when they deserve it.
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don't you mean even when they don't deserve it?

the reason i took offence to your useage of the word "bias" jay, is because the very meaning of the word is, to hold a prejudice in favour or against someone or something, usually in a way considered to be unfair..

how am i being unfair? my very bias, if anything would be to staunchly support my local zoo, the zoo i always visit and used to be a FOTZ member of would it not?

instead i give them more %&*@ on this forum than anybody.

because my positively sure and stubborn (and i shouldn't have used that word either as i am yet to hear a justifying argument) attitude is one thats been made over years. i didn't inherently hate melbourne zoo, i inherently loved it. but after decades of seeing a gorilla in a pit whilst a whole family of them lived in a spacious rainforest next door and decades collecting bloody corks for a new elephant exhibit that was hardly any bigger than the old one i feel positively shafted.

but remember i give credit where credit is due. do i not speak ever so fondly of the decision by melbourne to honour their responsibiliity to their pre-existing elephants and integrate them with the new ones (unlike taronga).

do i not acknowledge how much this has enriched their lives? do i not speak of how good the "facilities" are at melbourne despite their size?

comeon' dude my opinions are not even remotely biased. they are infact the opposite.
 
ahhh snowleopard. exactly!!!!!

i think i love you.

@Patrick: I'll pass those comments on to my wife, and she'll steer us away from moving to Melbourne in the future. Haha...

Seriously though, zoo fans sticking up for Taronga is all well and good except where the size of the exhibit comes in. I won't beat a dead horse with this notion, but for people to defend the puny enclosure is simply ridiculous. One just has to read all about the numerous ailments that elephants have in captivity to realize that they need an abundance of SPACE to roam around and wear down the tough calluses on their feet. The Taronga exhibit is shockingly small, and just think what could be done with double the space, or an extension that would combine the female enclosure with Gung's. At least at Melbourne there are more options for moving the pachyderms around...
 
lol what i love is the fact that the taronga saga has sooooooooooo many difernt facts and figures! Its not as simple as 'i wish'

whilst a little more room could have (would have) been good, do all you international pople know that gung the male was never going to taronga, the the original import consited of 9 animals- new zeland was involved to.

they had a young female and gung, she was a misbehaving animals, so with no other breeding animals, auckland pulled out all together, so taronga sai o we will take gung, as to not loose an important male. By this time taronga had planned built and been well on the way to completeing an exhibit designed for 4 females!

So gung came in so i think very well the zoo committed an etxra 7 mill to a new exhibit for him!

thats great i think!

with out the prob of a male, the taronga girls were orginally destined to mile sof walks, even proposed swims at the beach. Now with a amle animals, management just comes harder, though hes a nice tempered animals, there still is the management issue of wen ever you go in an exhbit, he must not be, just makes it that little harder. And that was never really put in to the issue of designing.

There a re a million of other bits of info you over seaers wouldnt know, but we'll bring it up wne it comes.

Can anyone expand on my statement.

Also on glyn- do you really see auckalnd sending one of its females over seas, leaving it with an underired old ele on her own, and u really think they would swap for another 50 yr old?

I love this site how we are all talking in hypotheticals! I carnt wait till we run a zoo one day- boy we will have the most co-operable organisations in the world!
 
Auckland elephants

I dont think Auckland will send any of its elephants overseas unless they get a replacement one first .
They will not deliberately keep one of their elephants alone . However , they are aware of the fact of natural attrition , but an elephant death is something that will happen naturally , or by medical complications .....

Its a pity that Sydney doesnt have an open range partner zoo somewhere that is closer to town -- the old Warragamba Lion safari Park would have been an ideal location !

But the fact that they are doubling at least part of the elephant enclosure at Taronga is at least something in the right direction -- even if the concession is too small .
Are their elephants involved in pulling out tree stumps at numerous sites of the zoo ( for new attractions ) or any other heavy work ?
If there is any work that involves manual labour or machinery at Auckland Zoo , the use of the elephants to do the work is always taken into serious consideration . This has the benefit of providing meaningful stimulation for the elephants , positive PR (" Our elephants are doing what comes naturally to elephants ! " ) , alot of visitor interest .... not to mention red tape with labour laws etc -- the elephants dont belong to a trade union
 
now, now zooboy,

taronga doesn't really deserve credit for taking on a male elephant when auckland pulled out because taronga was foolish for planning to start a conservation breeding program without a male elephant at all!

secondly, i wish everyone would stop talking about the zoo "doubling" its elephant exhibit. they are actually renovating the old exhibit, separate to the current one and it will be not utilised by the female elephants for teh vast majority of their lives. id'e say "building a second pissy little exhibit" would be a better way of putting it. ;)

oh and lastly, both auckland females are barren. the plan is that when (presumably) kashin dies, they will import another companion cow from australia.
 
Zoo_Boy said:
lol what i love is the fact that the taronga saga has sooooooooooo many difernt facts and figures! Its not as simple as 'i wish'

whilst a little more room could have (would have) been good, do all you international pople know that gung the male was never going to taronga, the the original import consited of 9 animals- new zeland was involved to.

they had a young female and gung, she was a misbehaving animals, so with no other breeding animals, auckland pulled out all together, so taronga sai o we will take gung, as to not loose an important male. By this time taronga had planned built and been well on the way to completeing an exhibit designed for 4 females!

So gung came in so i think very well the zoo committed an etxra 7 mill to a new exhibit for him!

thats great i think!

with out the prob of a male, the taronga girls were orginally destined to mile sof walks, even proposed swims at the beach. Now with a amle animals, management just comes harder, though hes a nice tempered animals, there still is the management issue of wen ever you go in an exhbit, he must not be, just makes it that little harder. And that was never really put in to the issue of designing.

There a re a million of other bits of info you over seaers wouldnt know, but we'll bring it up wne it comes.

Can anyone expand on my statement.

Also on glyn- do you really see auckalnd sending one of its females over seas, leaving it with an underired old ele on her own, and u really think they would swap for another 50 yr old?

I love this site how we are all talking in hypotheticals! I carnt wait till we run a zoo one day- boy we will have the most co-operable organisations in the world!
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Zoo Boy,

Thanks for digging that one up. Point taken. Though I would say your major opponents are at home ... (lol lovable patrick)! :)

I agree with you that we do not have the full picture here regarding the management and historical perspective side of the equation. I personally am loath to all conspiracy theories being put into the media that have no basis at all. Yet I do think it is healthy we explore the conditions under which the breeding programme should move forward (and ultimately these should be in the best interest of conserving the species locally and globally).

I have a fair bit of experience with the European Elephas maximus programme and I really do think that ARAZPA could benefit from that enormously. Do you know if there is any form of active or tacit coop with the EEP?

Secondly, an international working group affiliated with the captive-breeding programme exists that is primarily involved in researching the captive biology and management of elephants. Minimum exhibit spaces, favored family groupings, matriarch operatives, bull housing and breeding yards, enrichment ... I could go on a myriad ways.

You are quite right to bring into it the suggested course of action with elderly eles - as I did also - that it is simply impractical to have the entire Taronga herd move over to Dubbo (both for the presence of Africans with potential for herpes transmission and the established grouping of elderly eles that preclude the absorption of others).

Re the Auckland move: I would not leave out the elderly elephant out of the equation. It is fairly well established practice in Europe now to have elderly reproductively senescent females that have more or less have a history of sub-optimal social groupings are mixed only with same eles at non breeding locations (all female groupings).

The Auckland move (suggested by glyn) would only be practical if it were a in combination:
A) Moving the elder elephant to Dubbo or Australia Zoo (both of which hold groupings of elderly elephants). Only if that condition can be met given the female's prior history is
B) a parallel movement of the breeding age elephant practical (in this case I wish the ARAZPA Species Coordinator will make recommendations for a move to a breeding location).

Alternatively, C) an elder elephant from mainland Australia could make the move across and D) the breeding age elephant at Auckland can move to a breeding location.

Regarding the ARAZPA breeding programme I sincerely hope that:
i) all breeding age females should be relocated to breeding locations.
ii) those not able to house a bull should be designated non breeding locations and - when choosing to not phase out elephants altogether - should house senescent and non-reproductive all female groupings only.
iii) in future a bull only facility for sub-adult bulls growing up together.

But the latter is just the breeding side of it all (viz reread my comments re management etcetera).

Cheers,

Jelle
 
Possible Expansion of Taronga's Elephant Enclosure.

Unlike Melbourne and Adelaide zoos, which are virtually developed "wall-to-wall", Taronga still has a large area of land (several acres in fact) in its south-western corner, almost adjacent to the new elephant exhibit, and on its western boundary (out past the red pandas.).

It is quite steep in places; certainly not flat, and is covered in bushland, but could be used for elephant paddocks. Being steep and on several levels is probably a GOOD thing for elephant exercise purposes. Taronga's current elephant enclosure is on two levels, and I could never understand why, when the old enclosure was expanded, that so much trouble and expense was incurred to build it up and keep it flat. Unless I'm mis-interpreting what others have said on this forum, exercise is the key to keeping eles. feet and legs healthy.

For ANY species a multi level enclosure is more interesting than a flat tract. (More interesting for the public too.)
 
ha ha - and melbourne went to considerable effort to make two of their enclosures, not flat!

melbourne actually is in an easy position to expand. you may hear glyn and i mention from time to time the elephants taking over the african savannah (giraffe) paddock.

this is because despite trail of the elephants appearing to be sandwiched between orangs/tigers/butterflies and the great flight aviary, there is actually a short access road that runs between two of the elephant paddocks and the GFA. there is even an existing "elephant gate" installed in the bull paddock that opens into the road. whilst i haven't seen any of the new elephants walked once since arrival (they may do, but i used to see kapah walking round the zoo all the time) it may already be utilised for this purpose.

essentially it would take little (provided the giraffes, zebras and ostriches where moved) to open up this very large open area into another elephant paddock.
 
lol i love fatcs i can bring up -

dubbo is huge- it is possible to move all 5 elephants (hypothetically not to start an uproar) with out them ever seeing, another elephant! Only 1 third of the 2000 acres is developed, not to mention thats not all, they also own a large parcel along the river across the road from the zoo.

I have always been one to point out the individual needs of animals- whilst i undertsnad that moves need to take place- i hate the idea of ripping apart pairs of elephants and moving them everywhere- i beleive that all elephants should stay where they are with the except of perth who IF trisha passes on, leaving a lone female is not nessicary- this should arise in about 6 yrs, the same time that dubbos 3 asains will be well advanced in age, that possiblity arises that perth may aquire more elephants in a 'second wave' of elephants needed just to fill zoo space with breeding groups.

It is also writeen in the elpehant magment document that any female calves born, shall stay with there neonatal family group, males will be moved though.
 
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