The German Adventures Of A Tea-Loving Dave - April 2014

The former raven aviary in the mountain area is currently being redeveloped for the manul, so it will move there soon...

I visted both zoos two months ago, my previous visit was 2012. And the situation in both zoos has improved in both establishments, especially the tierpark looked better, with a lot of small improvements going on currently. Though the last large redevelopment, the Alfred Brehm House renovation, seemed a total waste of money, especially because the animals did not get any improvement at all and even more big cats were stocked in than before....

I find it funny that two of the first large things the new director wants to change are the bird house in the zoo and the alfred brehm house in the tierpark, both of which had just been renovated / rebuilt under the former director, imo without much improvement.... So I am excited of what will happen with the new director and I hope he will make especially the tierpark more attractive, as there is a lot of unused potential there.... I have good hope that together with the excellent curators working there, he will maintain the number of rarities (see for example the recent second gerenuk import).
 
1.3 gerenuks were imported in june, the females will go to tierpark, the male will stay in the zoo, where they are currently in quarantine.
 
At last people are now saying how bad ABH is!. I've tried it in the past and got shot down. Last time I was in Berlin I couldn't force myself to go inside as it was so upsetting for me, the outdoor enclosures are also no better.
Hopefully with the planned investment things will get better.
I will end by saying once again that it's a good zoo, but is ruined by only a few poor areas.
 
lintworm said:
The former raven aviary in the mountain area is currently being redeveloped for the manul, so it will move there soon...
Click to expand...

That explains it. It's good to see a positive step being taken. The new plan looks like a huge improvement. If they can some how maintain the historical nature of the building whilst also delivering great exhibits it will be a triumph.

We were at the Tierpark on the same day Laughing Dove! I guess I probably saw you at some point. I sometimes think there should be a badge or a secret sign so we can spot each other.

Thank you for your kind words devilfish.
 
FunkyGibbon said:
We were at the Tierpark on the same day Laughing Dove! I guess I probably saw you at some point. I sometimes think there should be a badge or a secret sign so we can spot each other.
Click to expand...

I know! We need ZooChat T-shirts :D

I would have been the funny 15 year old going around by myself while taking notes, photographing signage and ignoring the many odd looks from 'normal' visitors :p
 
devilfish;888305 'Species burnout' is a brilliant phrase said:
I have never been to Berlin, but I wish my capital city had a zoo with even half the collection of mammals and birds that zoo Berlin has! It used to have one in the days when it was known as London Zoo. I wish I had the opportunity to complain of 'species burnout' when visiting there in 2015, but instead find it very underwhelming! I know a touch of realism is required in the 21st century, but I think people should be careful what they wish for, would they really want Berlin to go the way of London?
I can't agree with Funkygibbon's comments that Whipsnade can't be a great zoo because it has too many large mammals, I would argue that a zoo with none or very few would probably struggle even more to be one!
Click to expand...
 
chizlit said:
At last people are now saying how bad ABH is!. I've tried it in the past and got shot down. Last time I was in Berlin I couldn't force myself to go inside as it was so upsetting for me, the outdoor enclosures are also no better.
Hopefully with the planned investment things will get better.
I will end by saying once again that it's a good zoo, but is ruined by only a few poor areas.
Click to expand...

Hmm..."couldn't go in" - wow,that is ridiculous - many people in Birmingham,and their cats and dogs,live in much worse conditions than the felines in the ABH,but it doesn't stop you living there does it? Im not saying that it doesn't need to improve but many,many, animals thrive in there and animals as tricky to breed as Clouded Leopards have bred in there(as have many commoner species)...and exactly which outdoor enclosures are so terrible anyway? The last time I was in Chinatown in Manhattan or watched The Grand National on television,I saw true animal suffering and I suspect that some of the markets in China and Vietnam would be more than I could stand....and we are complaining about Tierpark where the animals receive the finest care from genuine experts?...come on now!
 
Last edited:
Scottish friends of mine visited Berlin Zoo last month. They're not zoo nerds, just like to visit a zoo occasionally. The only comment I managed to get out of one of them was "Zoo, was in need of a lot of modernisation, Hippos had a good enclosure as did the Elephants. Aquarium was good but not the best zoo we have been to." Never been there myself.
 
Tim Brown said:
Hmm..."couldn't go in" - wow,that is ridiculous - many people in Birmingham,and their cats and dogs,live in much worse conditions than the felines in the ABH,but it doesn't stop you living there does it? Im not saying that it doesn't need to improve but many,many, animals thrive in there and animals as tricky to breed as Clouded Leopards have bred in there(as have many commoner species)...and exactly which outdoor enclosures are so terrible anyway? The last time I was in Chinatown in Manhattan or watched The Grand National on television,I saw true animal suffering and I suspect that some of the markets in China and Vietnam would be more than I could stand....and we are complaining about Tierpark where the animals receive the finest care from genuine experts?...come on now!
Click to expand...

I completely agree. Many of the indoor bits are good and even very good in the case of that central walkthrough bit. In the end it comes down to what you compare it to, UK zoos tend to have the highest animal welfare standards compared to many other places even in continental Europe. And although the large carnivore enclosures were amongst the worst, if not the worst I have seen in Europe, though they are not even close to some places outside Europe I have seen.
 
Well..Ive been to 700 zoos and aquariums(695 actually),and Berlin is my favourite,tho the ABH is in the Tierpark (my fourth favourite)..the fact remains that your friend`s money is as good as mine ,and I suppose at the end of the day half-formed perceptions from the general public will forge the shape of zoos far more than the opinions of specialists such as myself and this forum,although ,if I say it myself, I have not been without influence in the past.
 
Im useless at all this quoting ,and cutting and pasting,so my comments above refer to Jackwow`s last posting!..sorry!
 
I preferred Berlin Zoo to Tierpark too, and the zoo is my second favourite, with Weltvogelpark Walsrode beating it due to my main interest being odd and unusual birds. :)
 
Tim Brown said:
Hmm..."couldn't go in" - wow,that is ridiculous - many people in Birmingham,and their cats and dogs,live in much worse conditions than the felines in the ABH,but it doesn't stop you living there does it? Im not saying that it doesn't need to improve but many,many, animals thrive in there and animals as tricky to breed as Clouded Leopards have bred in there(as have many commoner species)...and exactly which outdoor enclosures are so terrible anyway? The last time I was in Chinatown in Manhattan or watched The Grand National on television,I saw true animal suffering and I suspect that some of the markets in China and Vietnam would be more than I could stand....and we are complaining about Tierpark where the animals receive the finest care from genuine experts?...come on now!
Click to expand...

We are not comparing the horrible abuses in China, we are talking about the ABH. I refer to the outdoor enclosures off the AHB, if you think they are ok then fine, but cages with no space and a few logs, trunks and greenery don't float my boat. The fact that lots of cats ( many of them rare) live there doesn't make their living conditions any better nor does the fact that they breed. My view is that I did not wish to see this area a second time and I don't think it's a reason to make some kind of comment about it to my eyes the living conditions are not up to good European standards, others agree here, while others it seems are content to see one different cat after another squeezed into an outdated area.
 
Tim Brown said:
Hmm..."couldn't go in" - wow,that is ridiculous - many people in Birmingham,and their cats and dogs,live in much worse conditions than the felines in the ABH,but it doesn't stop you living there does it? Im not saying that it doesn't need to improve but many,many, animals thrive in there and animals as tricky to breed as Clouded Leopards have bred in there(as have many commoner species)...and exactly which outdoor enclosures are so terrible anyway? The last time I was in Chinatown in Manhattan or watched The Grand National on television,I saw true animal suffering and I suspect that some of the markets in China and Vietnam would be more than I could stand....and we are complaining about Tierpark where the animals receive the finest care from genuine experts?...come on now!
Click to expand...

Yes, and Leipzig Zoo has bred more than 2000 lions in tiny, old cages in the old lion house, Orang-Utans have bred for the first time in 1928 in also tiny cages and later in the Bathrooms Cages,Hippos still breeding in tiny bathtubes,and Copenhagen has bred his first asian elephants in 1906 in a tiny enclosure without bath and bull enclosure...and teh isrt Suamatran Rhion was bred and raisedin 1889 at Calcutta Zoo....By the way, Duisburg Zoo has ssuccesfully bred Clouded leopards every year in a tiny cage hole, but after they moved them to their excellent natural exhibit, they stopped breeding.Nowadasy, tehy bred regualray at many places, after Aspinall gave his receipt to other zoos...same example with giant otter.

What I want to say-successful breedinng isn't an indicator or a proof for a high standard of animal welfare, and we not talking here about suffering of animals in china or something else in the world or how pets are be kept( but I agree with you-millions of them, if dogs,cats,parrots or horses have to live under more worse condtions than most zoo animals-or dolphins;) in europe-no question about that, but nobody cares...), the theme is here how the big cats are be kept at Tierpark Berlin, and currently, the big cats welfare isn' not the best, because is defenitely the result of a too big collection in that old house. By the way, altough some things are now better than under the ruleness of the former director,the Tierpark is far away from to be an excellent"Zoo"-the welfare of zebras,elephants,manatees rhinos( one of the most poor indian rhino exhibits, indoor and outdooors I've eve rseen-the rhinos come in at 4 pm for the night, but at the Zoo, they can spend the night OUTDOORS in summer times, thats a much higer standard of rhino keeping, I would say-in a smaller, but much bettere xhibts tahn at teh Tierpark.And to seperate the male antelopes most of the year of the females isn't a good animal welfare-oan dthis only to have antelops young in sumemr times.Belive me, it is problemless possible to raise antelopes also in wintertimes-because every zoo in mid europe does have heated stalls for them...Only exception are, oh wonder-the gerenuks.The pair has mated again, and with a little luck, the Tierpark could have his next gerenuk fawn in december or january..Also I feel so Sorry for the poor honey badgers in their poor cage-tahts not the way how to keep such a smart animal, what needs a lot of space..hopefully, it will be changed soon.

And the Tierparks keeps moose in an african savannah style exhibt--large, but not good for moose-just to name another example for the strange style of hoofstock exhibits at this place. Large collection, poor animal welfare....but I know, this discussion will never end:), because it is one of the most popular Tierparks for most zoo interested people.
 
I mean we could go on and on with "tit for tat" couldn't we? The point being that someone found the ABH to be so horrific that he/she couldn't even bear to enter-plainly a ridiculous standpoint..its like saying (as I said) that parts of Birmingham are so horrible that I couldn't even drive through them! And my point about Chinatown was that it is MANHATTAN...NEW YORK!,that even around the corner in civilized societies there are animal abuses on a significant scale - to compare the Brehm House with them is ridiculous,almost anti-zoo in fact.
Bib..you clearly have an issue with Tierpark and I haven't the time to go on and on..but take the Moose , there is little that is different about their management in a meadow with a lot of trees or no trees provided they have a pool,or perhaps you have an issue with Whipsnade and the Highland Wildlife Park too ? Diet seems to be key to this species(in fact it is).
 
Bib Fortuna said:
I took the mososoe as an exmaple for the bad quality of exhibts at teh Tierpark, but I agree with you,Diet is indeed the Mian Key in kepeing moosse in"Captivity", what makes it impossibe to keep them in ANY Zoo-in Not only Zoo it is working, belive me. Same with Musk Ox. But this another thee, whe shouldn't discuss here. Anyway, it is hard to tell Zoo"nerds", some of"common" species, so not cetaceans, elephants or apes, are not doing well in zoos-what would you say, if I told you, even Giraffes are not doing well in Zoos ? You wouldn't belive, do you ?
Click to expand...

I've noticed that your spelling gets worse the longer a debate goes on :p take your time over posts rather than hurrying into typing a snap response!

In any case, staying out of the whole discussion of the ABH, I'd love to hear why you believe it is impossible to keep moose or musk ox in any zoo - especially when one considers that both species breed well and don't have unduly high mortality rates in European collections! I'm pretty sure Tim Brown was not making this claim himself, so he is hardly in agreement with you.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
I've noticed that your spelling gets worse the longer a debate goes on :p take your time over posts rather than hurrying into typing a snap response!

In any case, staying out of the whole discussion of the ABH, I'd love to hear why you believe it is impossible to keep moose or musk ox in any zoo - especially when one considers that both species breed well and don't have unduly high mortality rates in European collections! I'm pretty sure Tim Brown was not making this claim himself, so he is hardly in agreement with you.
Click to expand...

Oh, you're right-the spelling mistakes are awul...I try to type a bit slower, so my postings become more readable.Forgive me!:)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top