Local_Shark
Well-Known Member
It really is. If you go to FL Aquarium and see them again I’d love some more pictures. I’m a bit sad they weren’t there when I went haha!
The Spotted Whiptail Ray Species Complex
Sure thing, I should be back there sometime in the next month or so.
King of Komodo Dragons
Well-Known Member
Thank you for these! I can do my best with them both.
That one at SeaWorld was actually also spotted by Sicarius and posted in his original thread. It’s definitely a fine-spotted leopard whipray (Himantura tutul). They may also have a classic leopard but we cannot find any photos of that one presently - yours is definitely the same tutul individual that both Sicarius and I have images of.
/QUOTE]
Here is the photo of the leoparda from SeaWorld Orlando back in 2022. It's not the best photo but you can still see the rosettes fairly easily.
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Local_Shark
Well-Known Member
@King of Komodo Dragons Well spotted! That definitely is a leopard and you know what, I managed to find a photo of the very same one from my visit in May 2023 once I saw yours and the exhibit you found it in. So they do indeed have both H. leoparda and H. tutul.
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BlobfishBoy
Well-Known Member
Thoughts on this individual from the National Aquarium?
Local_Shark
Well-Known Member
Hahaha…that there is my archnemesis, or really one of my three such nemeses as the aquarium has three specimens. All three are very difficult to identify and signed, I believe incorrectly, as Australians. I believe that this one may be the only true H. australis of the lot, but a reticulate (H. uarnak) is perhaps just as likely with that pattern. The other two I am equally unsure about, but I think they are likely to be fine-spotted (H. tutul). They have bedeviled me since I first saw them in May of this year. Sicarius has a friend who may know more, and I’ve sent my photos to him for further study.Thoughts on this individual from the National Aquarium?
Please do keep us updated. I've been to NAIB a few times since 2018 so will have presumably seen all three of their animals.
~Thylo
Local_Shark
Well-Known Member
Oh I promise, I will most certainly do so. Hell I’ll probably tell everyone in my life that I finally got an answer lol, it’s been driving me crazy forever. I will say, I even cracked open the actual scientific paper describing the fine-spotted leopard whipray (H. tutul) last night, and there was actually one that had a pattern similar-ish to the one BlobfishBoy posted…so it’s not a complete long shot that all three of their rays are that species. One thing I could never get a handle on in my discussions with Baltimore’s staff about this is whether the three all came from the same location, and thus could be proven to be siblings. That would definitely make them all the same species but sadly no one knew for sure.
BlobfishBoy
Well-Known Member
I think it's pretty funny that you have personal beef with these stingrays. I hope you find an answer one day I'm looking forward to it!
Local_Shark
Well-Known Member
Lmao yep, it’s probably pretty funny to anyone I’ve talked to. It’s mostly because I spent like 3 hours at the National Aquarium purely on trying to get good photos of them, and see if anyone knew for sure what they actually are. I never got a good answer! Even the education and aquarist staff had no idea, and most ended up just as curious as I was. The vast majority of the time I have been able to resolve any questions about the identities of species within my time at a zoo or aquarium. So this is my white whale of sorts because it’s the only time I haven’t done so.
Thanks for the photo though! That appears to be “Whippy”, the only male they have, and my best photo of him isn’t that good. Your shot may be quite a big help in this. I appreciate the wish for luck as well
Local_Shark
Well-Known Member
A small update to this thread: the wonderful @NAIB Volunteer responded to one of my media posts about the Baltimore rays and informed me that they’re listed in the inventory as reticulates (H. uarnak). Notably, they were brought into the aquarium in the years prior to 2013, and thus before this paper was published that officially described the fine-spotted leopard whipray (H. tutul). My current assessment based on the information in that paper is that all three are H. tutul, as the Baltimore rays’ patterns are visually identical to the reference patterns presented therein from other members of that species. I believe it to be somewhat likely that the identification on both their signage (as Australian whiprays, H. australis), and the website and inventory as reticulates, simply isn’t quite up to date. All of y’all here can take any of that information as you will for your own resources. 
@ThylacineAlive @BlobfishBoy
@ThylacineAlive @BlobfishBoy
Local_Shark
Well-Known Member
Having gone back through my archives, I have seen a few other rays of this variety, but most of my pictures of their patterns are pretty awful. I can toss some more possible IDs out there for others who may be interested, all from my visits in 2022-23:
That’s about all the observations I have! I’ll post any others that I can find
- The Seas with Nemo and Friends has two of these rays, and their patterns are a bit strange, but my most educated guess at present is that they’re both fine-spotted leopards (H. tutul).
- Odysea Aquarium’s ray is another tricky one to identify, but based on the pattern being closer to full polygon spots I think it’s most likely a true leopard (H. leoparda) though H. tutul is not out of the question. Would love some better pictures from anyone who has been, if it’s still there.
- Sea Life Minnesota appears to have another fine-spotted leopard (H. tutul) labeled as a leopard. That one is a little bit easier because the spots are significantly smaller and match fairly closely to the ones in the descriptive paper I posted above.
- The ray at Sea Life Carlsbad is the other one that I have the most difficulty with. I’ve sent images to Sicarius of it, but my very best guess is that it’s probably another fine-spotted leopard (H. tutul). There’s a very small chance that might actually be a true honeycomb (H. undulata) but I have to doubt it at this point. I really cannot be sure on it however.
That’s about all the observations I have! I’ll post any others that I can find
Local_Shark
Well-Known Member
Reviving this thread just a bit to say that I've done some more digging into my photos from the Georgia Aquarium, and I'm beginning to be more and more convinced that they had a genuine honeycomb whiptail (H. undulata) in June of 2021. I don't know if it's still there, but the pattern is pretty similar to all the real ones I can find and the true example that Sicarius posted a while back. However it is definitely possible that it's just an oddly-patterned fine-spotted leopard or leopard, or perhaps even a hybrid. I don't know if any studies have been done on these species hybridizing, but I know for a fact that river stingrays do, and that can make it a pain to ID them. I also don't know if that animal is still at Georgia, but if anyone goes back and happens to spot it, do let me know!
Northwest_FIsh_Keeping
Well-Known Member
I was there at the end of July earlier this year and can confirm it's still there, but unfortunately it was surfing the top viewing area of the half tunnel so I couldn't get a picture of the pattern sadly.
This one is super rough since I haven't seen it in person (whether it's even on exhibit, I have no clue. It's been signed ever since the Tropical Reef Aquarium opened back up earlier this year but it's either BTS or just insanely reclusive which would be rather unusual). I posted this in response to your reply on the PDZA thread but thought it'd be good here too.
The Zoo has this signed as an Australian Whipray (H. Australis), but the only picture I've ever seen of it is this from a blog they put out before the Aquarium re-opened. Interestingly enough, there is an alleged juvenile H. Australis that lives in one of the shallow lagoons. A few volunteers said it should be H. Australis (at least that's what it's signed as), but since it's a juvenile, super hard to tell as the pattern hasn't developed yet. Ill ask again about the status of the Adult on Monday when I visit but that would be crazy to know Washington has both an H. Leoparda and an H. Australis within an hour distance of each other
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Local_Shark
Well-Known Member
Many thanks for all the above info, NWFK! So, you’re absolutely right that it’s very hard to get a positive ID on the patterns until they develop better upon reaching adulthood. That’s why I don’t wanna pre-judge on these, but I will say, the pattern on the young one you have a photo of in the exhibit itself makes me think fine-spotted leopard (H. tutul) or reticulate (H. uarnak) rather than Australian. But I’m definitely not confident in that so I will not remotely call that a confirmed identification and you shouldn’t either haha. If you could maybe get any info on exactly where the rays came from, it could help. Thanks again for the thorough research and photos regardless!
Local_Shark
Well-Known Member
Another revival of this thread to say that I have seen Downtown Aquarium Denver’s current specimen of this complex, a little male named Cerberus. The fine folks up there have done their homework on him and they and I are all fairly convinced that he is a reticulate (H. uarnak).
One mild taxonomic update I have is that apparently, scientists now believe that the entire population of what were thought to be reticulates in Australia are actually the eponymous Australian whiprays. They have a similar pattern, though the Australians seem to have more linear varieties in their morphs. Working on determining whether the Point Defiance Zoo and Aquarium’s ray is an Australian or a reticulate based on the new pictures NWFK took and any info on its origins he can glean.
One mild taxonomic update I have is that apparently, scientists now believe that the entire population of what were thought to be reticulates in Australia are actually the eponymous Australian whiprays. They have a similar pattern, though the Australians seem to have more linear varieties in their morphs. Working on determining whether the Point Defiance Zoo and Aquarium’s ray is an Australian or a reticulate based on the new pictures NWFK took and any info on its origins he can glean.
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Northwest_FIsh_Keeping
Well-Known Member
Thanks to @Zoological Point , it's confirmed that the Himantura at PDZA is a true Himantura australis, as she came from an Aquarium in Australia. She's still relatively small (looked no larger than 3ft around), and very reclusive since she wasn't added that long ago, but that's nice to confirm there are 2 Himantura species in the state (H. leoparda at Seattle, H. australis at PDZA). Shoutout to PDZA for correctly labeling her as well, their signage being accurate helps a lot
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Caribbean Flamingo
Well-Known Member
Can someone help me to name the ID of these spotted whiprays? These photos were taken in a local public aquarium called Jakarta Aquarium and Safari that was located in my city. I'll be posting them in Jakarta Aquarium and Safari's media page. Thank you!
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Local_Shark
Well-Known Member
Hey there! I can do my very best. Without knowing exactly where they came from in the South Pacific, it's pretty difficult to be certain, but one of them (fifth/bottom picture especially) looks like a reticulate (H. uarnak) to me. They usually have more distinct and very small spots. The upper one's more honeycomb-like pattern makes me think that it could be a true honeycomb (H. undulata), which are rare in US aquaria especially but are much more common in their more local range (like Jakarta). However it could also be a fine-spotted leopard (H. tutul). Sorry that I can't be more explicit, but if you have any more info on where they came from, it could help narrow things down!
Caribbean Flamingo
Well-Known Member
Thank you so much for helping! Most of the rays in Jakarta Aquarium were locally sourced.