Toronto Zoo Toronto Zoo Discussion thread 2022

ProjectGames said:
As we all know Jingga will be gone soon.... as well as Kembali (probably). If Ramai's baby does come out maybe at the end of the year, then I'd expect Jingga to be around the infant's life for around a few months, then she'd be gone. I don't know if anyone will disagree with this, but since Budi had successfully bred Sekali and made her pregnant, I suggest the keepers pair Ramai and Budi up for most of the time, so that way, Budi will spend most of his time breeding Ramai and she will be pregnant and have her baby asap.
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I would think Jingga will stay for longer than a few months, they’ll want her to have more experience with a baby than just a few months if they want her to be a successful first time mom.

Not a bad idea, but the keepers do put Budi with Ramai every month when she cycles so they’re doing their very best to get her pregnant. Plus Ramai has Jingga with her and they probably don’t want to have to go through to trouble of introducing Budi to Jingga as well. Plus she’d have to be put on birth control too so it’s just a lot of work when they can just simply house him with Sekali and put him with Ramai when necessary.

Personally, I’m still holding onto hope that the SSP and the zoo will decide that Jingga should stay and Budi will be sent away once Ramai gives birth. That way a new unrelated male can be brought in to breed with Jingga and Sekali when she’s done raising her upcoming infant.

Assuming Jingga and Kembali do leave and after Puppe passes and the new infants are both born, what are the chances of Budi, Ramai, Sekali, and the babies all being integrated as a small troop? It would be nice for the infants to have interaction with one another but I wonder if the girls will get along after being separated for so long. When was the last time Sekali, Ramai, Jingga, and Kembali were together by the way? I’m assuming @TZFan will have the information, but if anyone else knows anything let me know! Thanks and so sorry for the long post and all the questions, lol.
 
WHen Ramai's baby do come out however, Jingga would probably be 16 that time.. which is too old to be around her mother. She could however watch Sekali have her baby and learn to rear a baby. When Budi was born her sister Jahe was 8 years old, and she spent 4 clean years learning from Puppe on rearing an offspring. If Jingga watched mother Ramai have a baby earlier, then she'd probably be off already unless there was a covid delay. But just looking at Budi and Ramai spending time together, it seemed that this breeding pair would be successful! Also hoping for a Ramai pregnancy soon!
 
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IndianRhino said:
I would think Jingga will stay for longer than a few months, they’ll want her to have more experience with a baby than just a few months if they want her to be a successful first time mom.

Not a bad idea, but the keepers do put Budi with Ramai every month when she cycles so they’re doing their very best to get her pregnant. Plus Ramai has Jingga with her and they probably don’t want to have to go through to trouble of introducing Budi to Jingga as well. Plus she’d have to be put on birth control too so it’s just a lot of work when they can just simply house him with Sekali and put him with Ramai when necessary.

Personally, I’m still holding onto hope that the SSP and the zoo will decide that Jingga should stay and Budi will be sent away once Ramai gives birth. That way a new unrelated male can be brought in to breed with Jingga and Sekali when she’s done raising her upcoming infant.

Assuming Jingga and Kembali do leave and after Puppe passes and the new infants are both born, what are the chances of Budi, Ramai, Sekali, and the babies all being integrated as a small troop? It would be nice for the infants to have interaction with one another but I wonder if the girls will get along after being separated for so long. When was the last time Sekali, Ramai, Jingga, and Kembali were together by the way? I’m assuming @TZFan will have the information, but if anyone else knows anything let me know! Thanks and so sorry for the long post and all the questions, lol.
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I think once Budi successfully breeds with Ramai, I personally think that it will be a perfect time to introduce Budi to her half-sister Jingga. I sort of agree with your idea of sending Budi away and introduce a non-related male however. I'd be happy if there is going to be another troop that included both Ramai and Sekali in the future, since they grew up together, had their babies, and mostly had a great relationship together! I think it would be great if they were both reunited with each other after years.
 
@IndianRhino, I have heard through the grapevine that the zoo would love to test Budi, Sekali, Ramai and Jingga but want to wait til Ramai is pregnant. Ramai is the real wild card in the mix. She is the reason she can't be with Sekali. They are hoping Budi decides its his job to keep the peace unlike his father Molek. The girls father Dinding really did a decent job of keeping the peace while he was the breeding male. However a male orang is not a male gorilla and meant for leadership. Its absolutely a case by case basis for orangs if the male will care enough about the group he is in to do anything when there is a squabble.

All of the girls have been on birth control since they discovered the boys were capable of breeding in an unfortunate way. They didn't want to take any more risks.

My sincere hope is Sekali and Ramai both have girls. If we could get two girls then I say ship the boys off and heck try AI with Jingga if necessary. It would set us up well for a larger breeding group as Ramai is done after this one, Sekali will have one more hopefully, Jingga could give us 3-4 and the babies would be our future breeders with Jingga. If Jingga goes and we end up with all boys or just one girl then Toronto will probably switch to the normal zoo with one male, one female, an adolescent and an infant model. Since the zoo plans on heavily investing in the orangs I want to see a big group not just 4 orangs at best. The zoo's power right now is in having 3 breeding age females and the high quality genetics in all 5 breeding age orangs. Hopefully we can keep that going.
 
If they do however get boys, then they'd definitely get sent down somewhere else in the future. I remember seeing your idea of transferring Budi away so that Jingga would produce the first 5th generation! I think its a good idea, but however, if we're going to transfer both Budi and Kembali, then we should get a young, mature male like Budi in return. Ever since Molek's passing there hasn't been any luck getting a male. I've heard past conversations about the zoo almost getting a male but passed away, just bad luck. But hopefully if Sekali and Ramai both get girls, then the future for the orangutans could be bright.
 
I'm not sure about the gorilla's future, though. If Charles passes, then we'd know that both Sadiki and Nassir can't be the future breeding males for the troop, so they will be gone. I think the best thing to do now is try to get another male from another zoo, because then he will be the next male after Charles, and that we don't have to transfer both youngsters Nneka and Charlie. Plus, we could more babies from the new male, since he can breed all the females in the troop. Nneka has a few more years till shes available for breeding and it would be a good chance for her to get her first baby. When past gorilla Samantha was Nneka's age (I think?), she got her first baby. But because of her young age, it resulted in her rejecting her baby. Well I think Nneka is ready for breeding, but I just think its better to leave it until a few more years, after the new male has bred both Ngozi and Johari.
 
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Interesting tweet! I wonder what the zip line is for.

https://twitter.com/TZWConservancy/status/1501567254407925765

"Funds raised from this year’s event will support your @TheTorontoZoo's conservation breeding and reintroduction programs as well as the construction of a 10-foot climbing structure, a 12-foot feeding pole and a zip line in each of the outdoor Sumatran tiger exhibits. #ZooRunTO"
 
Flixox101 said:
Interesting tweet! I wonder what the zip line is for.

https://twitter.com/TZWConservancy/status/1501567254407925765

"Funds raised from this year’s event will support your @TheTorontoZoo's conservation breeding and reintroduction programs as well as the construction of a 10-foot climbing structure, a 12-foot feeding pole and a zip line in each of the outdoor Sumatran tiger exhibits. #ZooRunTO"
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I guess the zipline is for the kids who are interested in them, and that they could zipline above the tiger exhibit so that they could have a more clear, better view.
 
I believe there is a zipline near the indo-malaya pavillon that goes across the pond near the zoo. I remembered I gave that a try and it gave me a clear view across the ecosystem. If they planned to make a zipline above the tiger exhibit, I think it will be a great experience for the kids.
 
Chances are the zipline won't go directly over the exhibit. Next to it or around it is more likely. Purely for safety reasons.
 
@cypher @ProjectGames I totally understand where the confusion comes from, but the zip line is not for humans, it’s for hunks of meat that the tigers can chase through the exhibit. This all basically confirming the updates to the two Sumatran Tiger exhibits that we’ve been expecting. It’s very, very exciting, and about time they upgraded those old style exhibits.

Below is a link to an example of a feline zip line.

Enrichment Zip-line - Felines -
 
@animalman0341, I initially thought that, as it made the most sense, but I wasn't sure if that's what this was, so I just address what @ProjectGames mentioned. Thanks for clearing it up though. I didn't know this was an upgrade coming to the Tiger exhibits.
 
Finally something that could keep us entertained watching the tigers. For years, I've mostly seen the tigers just wandering around their exhibit, or not appearing sometimes and not doing something thats fascinating. I'm glad that the zoo is stepping up to this, and is up to making something that could not only make the tigers entertained, but also for us. All these zoo developments are certainly making this year much better!
 
For the outdoor orangutan exhibit that will not only be a huge development for the zoo, but a great chance for the orangs to witness nature. I've wondered if it would be a good idea to pair babirusas up with orangutans in the outdoor exhibit, since it could be something that could interest us seeing two species in the same exhibit.
 
I've seen ideas before of pairing up gibbons along with orangs in the indoor exhibit. But of course, gibbons probably wouldn't be a good "enrichment" for orangs.
 
ProjectGames said:
I've seen ideas before of pairing up gibbons along with orangs in the indoor exhibit. But of course, gibbons probably wouldn't be a good "enrichment" for orangs.
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In Beauval Zoo (France), an old female Gibbon (last survivor of a pair) lives with a family of Orangs.
I've often seen the Gibbon playing with the young Orangs, without difficulties with the adults.
 
The zoo has mentioned already that the Outdoor Orangutan exhibit is designed solely for Orangutans, with no plan of housing other species with them. Now, there is the plan to renovate the indoor Orangutan exhibit, and there's always a chance that mixing species could happen there, but no way of knowing that until exhibit design takes place.
 
@ProjectGames, the gorilla plans all depend on Charles. They are at a stand still until he passes. The most likely contender for silverback is Jawara of Granby. He can breed all of our girls. If they send Johari away then his brother Zwalani would be a contender as well (hes Johari's nephew). Nneka is not that far off breeding age. At 8 she is coming up on the time the SSP could consider sending her away. She probably wouldnt be allowed to breed until 10 but some girls go younger. As to order of breeding the girls it kinda depends on what they think might happen. They may want to breed Ngozi first to model for the younger first timers. They also may want to keep Ngozi in reserve for a surrogate option should Johari or Nneka reject a baby. Johari would probably go before Nneka because she is older and more mature and more valuable. If Johari rejected it would give them Ngozi, Nneka and maybe even Charlie as possible surrogates. Then Johari could be bred again faster which given her value would be more desirable then one from the other girls. It will be complex.
 
cypher said:
The zoo has mentioned already that the Outdoor Orangutan exhibit is designed solely for Orangutans, with no plan of housing other species with them. Now, there is the plan to renovate the indoor Orangutan exhibit, and there's always a chance that mixing species could happen there, but no way of knowing that until exhibit design takes place.
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I think given the space that is too bad. It would be nice if orang utan / great ape exhibits were designed with more species on exhibit in the same enclosures as them.

I can think of a few other megavertebrate species where this would apply!
 
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