Toronto Zoo Toronto Zoo Master Plan 2022

Great insight @Jefferson. I think it's safe to say that a lot of people share your feelings on keeping the Rhino. I agree with maintaining some of the smaller quality of life improvements, while working on big ticket projects is also key.

General improvement on exhibit aesthetics would be welcomed for sure, as well as introducing new species where needed. Savanna has some huge exhibits, but lack a nice comfortable concentration of species. Definitely room for improvement there.
 
@Jefferson, I like your visions for the zoo. I dont think any of us are happy to lose the Indian rhinos and most are at least sad to loose tree kangaroos. The hippos just add insult to injury.

The balance of quality of life improvements and big impressive projects will hopefully build a stronger zoo. I do think the zoo will be much better off for this kind of approach.

I think all of us will be slightly bummed if the koala deal falls through but I doubt anyone will be surprised if it does. The bigger shock would be the deal is still on.

@kingoffreaks, thanks for the info on musk ox. Bet their wool would make for super warm clothes.

Now that we have had a couple of days to cover our hopes (and if you havent yet please feel free to still), but lets talk about what we are concerned about come the master plan. This could be an equally interesting conversation.
 
Concerns is an interesting one. I think my biggest concern is something that won't be entirely evident upon initial viewing of the Master Plan. My concern is that some part of the plan is overly ambitious and when time comes to implement it, they have to scrap the project or greatly scale back on what was presented. Like I said, you wouldn't notice this until the time comes for the downsize or elimination of the project.

An example of this was when they said that we're going to do Sea Otters for the new entrance plan, then scaled back to River Otters. It was a disappointment to find out we weren't going to get a new species, most likely in part to budgetary reasons. I'd hate to see that again with a big project in the Master Plan.

As for something more evident upon release of the Master Plan, I'd be concerned about plans surrounding the Raven Roost idea in the last Master Plan. I feel like that's an overall waste of time for the zoo to sink money into, and that's partly because it's not something I would do. I also don't think it'll be the money draw that they'd want for a $7 million investment.
 
cypher said:
Concerns is an interesting one. I think my biggest concern is something that won't be entirely evident upon initial viewing of the Master Plan. My concern is that some part of the plan is overly ambitious and when time comes to implement it, they have to scrap the project or greatly scale back on what was presented. Like I said, you wouldn't notice this until the time comes for the downsize or elimination of the project.

An example of this was when they said that we're going to do Sea Otters for the new entrance plan, then scaled back to River Otters. It was a disappointment to find out we weren't going to get a new species, most likely in part to budgetary reasons. I'd hate to see that again with a big project in the Master Plan.

As for something more evident upon release of the Master Plan, I'd be concerned about plans surrounding the Raven Roost idea in the last Master Plan. I feel like that's an overall waste of time for the zoo to sink money into, and that's partly because it's not something I would do. I also don't think it'll be the money draw that they'd want for a $7 million investment.
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Just a guess, but Sea Otters are one of the most expensive species to feed, that could be a large reason for the adjusted plans.
 
Very much a possibility @DelacoursLangur. But when your told that they're going to do an exhibit with Sea Otters, you'd think they'd look into these things before notifying the public. That way you don't sound like you've put your foot in your mouth as an institution.

Now, it's been so long that I may be remembering the turn of events incorrectly. I can't remember for sure if Sea Otter was the initial choice, or if it was considered after they originally said River Otters. Maybe someone can clear that up for me. But it doesn't change my initial concern. Presenting an idea for a project that's too ambitious only having to scale back will always be disappointing, especially when the initial idea was met with great fanfare.
 
My only real concern is more big phase outs. Losing the Indian rhinos and hippos is painful enough, not to mention the spider monkeys, tree kangaroos, clouded leopards and all the others that the Animal Plan tore away from us. I know most if not all of these animals have valid reasons for leaving, but it doesn't make it any easier. If we can find a way to keep the rest of the collection intact while still adding new species that'd be perfect.
 
@hyena142, there is a chance that this new Master Plan may make changes from the infamous Animal Plan. If we're lucky, some of the more disliked animal changes will again change for the better. Time will tell.
 
@cypher, I would have to agree that an overly ambitious plan would be a big concern of mine too. How many times has the zoo said we plan to do this and then it gets cut because they bit off more then they could chew. The sea otters and walruses are recent examples but we all know when Tundra Trek was build we were to get wolverines and they had to be cut. Or when the snow leopard exhibit was built we were to get two display exhibits. Just a few examples.

As to why the zoo puts its foot in its mouth... the walruses are an even better example. We know about the otters because we are nuts and look for plans. The walruses is more embarrassing because they made a big public declaration. They have ambition but there is a certain lack of ability to follow through with big ticket animals as of late. I am at the point where I don't want to learn about a big animals arrival early because I get excited only to be disappointed.

I also loathed Raven's Roost. Please don't keep that plan.

@hyena142, phase outs are concerning as well. I think we have a good idea of what is gonna go though. I don't think the animal plan will show us a ton more phase outs. It will probably just confirm some of the sad news we are already aware of.

My own concerns... well obviously I'm on board with @cypher and @hyena142. One of my biggest concerns is they will turn the Indian rhino space into the rescued exotics area they were considering. I want rescued animals to have a good home but those rescues will never be breeding stock and I feel like that space could be better used for species that are part of SSP programs or conservation programs. The zoo only has so much money to invest in exhibits and animals and I think its better spent on those sorts of programs. Though if they used the Discovery Zone instead it would be smaller animals and I might be more ok with it and cool new species. Thats probably the biggest one.
 
@TZFan, gotta agree with you on that concern. Converting the Indian Rhino enclosure into a Rescued Exotics enclosure would be a waste of such a good exhibit that can be used for something better. Like you said, let's focus on something that can breed and contribute to the SSP. Converting space in the Discovery Zone is a nice alternate to plan the exotics idea.
 
@cypher It's definitely possible that we may see some changes but I feel like most of the Animal Plan ones are set in stone. The only major phase-out listed there that we haven't seen any movement on is the tur, and they seemed so enthusiastic about starting a markhor breeding program that I'd be extremely surprised if that somehow is no longer in the cards. The good news is that there are already so many big name ones that I can't imagine there are any others on the docket. There's a few species I wouldn't be surprised to see get the boot eventually (gibbons, elands, wildebeest, echidnas, really anything that hasn't bred in at least a decade without good reason) but I really hope we don't see much of that here.

Oh one concern I forgot about, I really hope we aren't becoming a hyena retirement home/non-breeding facility like the Animal Plan seemed to imply. For whatever reason they're just dead set on never having cubs even though Pinduli isn't getting any younger and Echo and Kanzi would be a fantastic pair. I'd even settle for Moja and Kanzi. If we have to wait out Pinduli then sure I'll be patient but let's not throw away an entire breeding program just because one transfer fell through the cracks ages ago.

I third the sentiment that I don't want the Indian rhino area to become the exotic rescue home. I'm honestly all for adding something like that to the zoo but not at the expense of Indo space. Give the Kids Zoo the revamp it needs and put it there. I still very much suspect we're in for Revenge of the Gaur at the rhino exhibit (not a terrible choice but very boring) but I'm holding onto hope we may get something more exciting there. Tapirs, anyone? Or something we've never had before, even a new species of buffalo would be cool.
 
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My Major Concerns are the exhibits based on facts.

They heavily stressed the animals that will be the focal point of the Zoo's region first off was African rainforest, they wanted to stress the gorillas and we have gotten hints that we will likely see a new gorilla habitat. Thus leading me to think we may need to wait out Charles before we even start the renovations. The pygmy Hippos were also a place that the team and management had cross hairs aimed on. We can already assume the future exhibit for them being the river hippo exhibit. As well, in the specific text it does so clearly state they want to have an amalgamated pygmy hippo, red river hog and nile soft shell turtle exhibit. So no biggie there more so the gorillas outdoor exhibit.

Also small adjustment to what I previously had said, The lemur exhibit will also become a focal point so lots of possibilities with that size of an exhibit.

Indo-Malaya

The Animals to be focused on were the Orangutans and the Sumatran Tigers. The orangutans will do fine in my opinion. it's the tigers that I am worried about. the tigers will need a renovation sometime soon and the exhibits are horrendous. i don't know how much longer we can expect them to be around in that wiring disaster but they need a new exhibit and I hope the Zoo feels the same way.

Eurasia Wilds

the main 4 animals were the snow leopards, Amur tigers, red pandas, and bactrian camels.

The Red pandas and camels are no problem as they are in breeding space and time currently. It's really the Amur tigers I am more worried about. the snow leopards have a male at least and its a waiting game on the female. The Tigers have had the mention of an expansion which leads me to believe that it may be the first exhibit in the master plan to be renovated once Mila leaves. So Mazy and vasili will likely live out their days here.

These are just my POV's on the places to lookout for in the master plan.

Link to Animal Plan.https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2020/zb/bgrd/backgroundfile-158681.pdf
 
@Akula, I'm curious as to why you think the zoo needs to wait out gorilla silverback Charles for renovations to begin. I'm under the assumption that the renovations will be to the outdoor exhibit, rather than indoors.
 
@cypher well a major renovation such as redoing the whole outdoor exhibit can really put stress on Charles as geriatric as it is. Also by the time they even get around to announcing the renovation he will likely be gone, so I just think it might be better to wait him out mainly due to the fact that he is very geriatric.
 
A concern of mine is that with phase outs and others factors, the zoo would have less a focus on exotic species. A huge strength of the Toronto Zoo is having such a variety of animals, especially in the pavilions. Visiting the zoo in the winter and seeing Canadian species is nice, but it’s also wonderful having pavilions to access and see animals all over the world, even in cold weather. I hope with the animal plan, the zoo has some exciting replacements and additions in mind. The animal plan mentions possibly phasing out tropical species in the americas pavilion for example. I wouldn’t want to see that happen a larger scale, it make parts of the zoo feel less special.
 
@hyena142, I agree lets all pray that they still want markhor and someone at the zoo finally pulls the plug on tur breeding. I feel like we are in for another 20 years to forever with the tur if we keep breeding completely inbred animals!!! Come on zoo you want markhor. We want markhor. The SSP would love to give you markhor. Lets end the insanity starting in 2022. Find another home for the herd and just move on to bigger and better things.

Sorry but you hyena hopes just arent likely to pan out unless Pinduli dies suddenly. Its the only hope you have. Sure the pandemic will keep Echo here for now but its only a matter of time. Moja could breed with Kanzi as hes actually pretty valuable (no founder like Echo would be but good) but Moja is also elderly so he might not be capable of siring a litter any longer. Sadly our best shot since no one wants to move Pinduli is that the pandemic prevents Echo leaving long enough that Pinduli passes on the young side and the zoo tells the SSP no we would rather breed Echo.

@Akula, I do not think the gorilla exhibit would be held up by Charles' existence. They are building the outdoor exhibit for the orangs without being concerned about Puppe who is even older. They would simply keep the gorillas inside for a year or two. However I doubt by the time they get to the gorilla exhibit Charles will be a consideration. We know that the entrance will take up 2-3 years minimum. For an elderly male gorilla that can be a lifetime. I also don't think the gorilla exhibit would be the next project. I think based on things we know the jaguar exhibit and maybe the Amurs might be tackled first. The gorillas are probably 5 years or more away. Very unlikely he will be around by the time they tackle it.

The Sumatran tiger they already said wouldn't be a massive reno. Some quality of life improvements for the tigers and guests but the focus of the project is the boardwalk.

I think if we are talking a single animal exhibit getting an upgrade we need to look at the jaguars before the Amur tigers. It's in a prime position for that to happen. We are down to one elderly jaguar, the spider monkeys all have homes lined up, a new female has been selected and could arrive any time because she's just over at Granby, its closed all winter so renos could be done in the off season rather easily.
 
@GorillaFan15, I share your sentiments 100%. I'd hate to see the tropical species in the Americas Pavilion phased out more Canadian representation. Granted, I think the zoo can work on more Canadian species representation in general, but not at the expense of tropical species. I think that's why people are general excited at the Canadian Wilderness concept.

I also agree with everything being said about the Tur. Let’s finally replace them with the Markhor.

Sorry @hyena142, it looks like the zoo is not in any rush for Hyena cubs, which sucks, because I think people would love to see that.

@Akula, I have to agree with @TZFan. Should the zoo tackle the outdoor Gorilla exhibit while Charles is alive, it wouldn’t be that much of a hindrance to his well being. At first, I think the troop will notice the noise and react to it, but that’s about it. Also, I think @TZFan is also right in that the outdoor Gorilla exhibit won’t be focused on until at least 5 years from everything going into action.

I also think that the Jaguar exhibit will be the next major animal exhibit renovation, or at least it should be. We all know that the Welcome Area will be the next major project, but It’s possible that there might be overlapping with other “smaller” scale projects like the boardwalk improvement around Indo-Malaya. Mainly the boardwalk because it need to be completed by 2025 to be compliant with AODA.
 
TZFan said:
@hyena142, I agree lets all pray that they still want markhor and someone at the zoo finally pulls the plug on tur breeding. I feel like we are in for another 20 years to forever with the tur if we keep breeding completely inbred animals!!! Come on zoo you want markhor. We want markhor. The SSP would love to give you markhor. Lets end the insanity starting in 2022. Find another home for the herd and just move on to bigger and better things.
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I wonder if it's a mere coincidence that Toronto is looking to go into markhor at the same time the San Diego Zoo Safari Park is looking to go out of them...

Side note: inbreeding in ungulates is really sort of par for the course, as most species have incredibly small founder bases. The very successful Sichuan takin program is a prime example of this--- that population is descended from 1.2 animals.
 
@Kudu21 as Markhor are from the himalayas would they benefit if they moved to Toronto Also could they be a breeding herd still? As well, do you know if Columbus still has them and if they are actively breeding them?
 
@TZFan I mean I don't need hyena cubs right this second, I just want to know that there's a chance they could be in our future. I'll wait as long as I need to if I must. The only thing I don't want is to become a non-breeding facility because if someone else gets the first Canada-born cubs before us I'll lose my marbles. Slightly off topic but are we the only zoo in Canada that has hyenas? A Google search sent me to a bunch of dead ends and conflicting info but I'm sure one of you guys knows the answer.

@cypher I have a hunch based on basically nothing that the jag expansion might be being worked on right now in some way. The Temple is closed for the season, and I can't remember them ever closing it in winter before because they sometimes let the jags out on days that aren't unbelievably cold or snowy. This is highly unlikely and relies on the spider monkeys having left (they probably haven't) but I think it's worth pointing out.

@Kudu21 Hmm that is very interesting that we're looking to get into the markhor game right as San Diego is looking to get out of it. Maybe we'll get a few members of their herd whenever we decide to make the switch, hopefully by that point all this covid nonsense will be done and US/CAD transfers will go back to being just difficult instead of being unbelievably awful.
 
Akula said:
@Kudu21 as Markhor are from the himalayas would they benefit if they moved to Toronto Also could they be a breeding herd still? As well, do you know if Columbus still has them and if they are actively breeding them?
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The mountains of Central Asia are not just ice and snow-- markhor are just as well adapted to the heat as they are the hold. They have done very well on the dry, rocky hillsides of southern California ;)

That said, I'm not sure what the SDZSP population is now, but they sent their male away quite awhile ago. When I visited the park last spring they still had a good sized group of females, though.

Columbus does still have a breeding group, but they regulate their breeding intervals. They only allow their females to get pregnant once every other year, I believe.
 
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