Toronto Zoo Toronto Zoo Master Plan 2022
- Thread starter TZFan
- Start date
@TZFan although Komodo island belongs to Indonesia,
, having various beautiful fishes from all over the world can effectively attract many visitors.
P. S. Although Komodo Island belongs to Indonesia, based on biogeography it is part of the Australasia realm, not the Indomalayan realm.
Then I think Toronto Zoo should build an aquarium
, having various beautiful fishes from all over the world can effectively attract many visitors. P. S. Although Komodo Island belongs to Indonesia, based on biogeography it is part of the Australasia realm, not the Indomalayan realm.
@StellarChaser, I am well aware one could make that argument about the komodos. What I said was that many of us agree we would rather see them in Indo because we have a whole pavilion dedicated to Indonesia and Malaysia. There are some species that one can quibble about where they truly belong. I just know there are many of us on here who prefer them to be in Indo and if we could move them we would.
Have to agree with @TZFan. Having the Komodo Dragons in the Indo-Malaya Pavilion would make sense over all. Obviously not possible at the moment due to spacing, but moving the Komodo's would free up space to really help showcase more Australasia animals.
At the same point, I have no problem with the zoo building an aquarium and filling it with aquatic life outside of their geographical area.
At the same point, I have no problem with the zoo building an aquarium and filling it with aquatic life outside of their geographical area.
@cypher, I wouldn't mind an aquarium (not that I think its a possibility in the slightest) as long as the aquarium itself was laid out geographically. If the zoo thought more aquatic species were needed none of the pavilions could handle the addition of a bunch of new tanks and filtration without sizable sacrifices in other areas. A dedicated aquarium is really the best solution in that case. We wouldnt have to sacrifice much. The life support system would be centralized so they could focus on one big life support system rather then say several dozen across the zoo. Good arguments could be made for one building dedicated to aquatics for sure. If the zoo wanted to do a random aquarium with no geographic placement of species then I would swap to a hard no. Not that its at all likely to happen, especially since Ripley's exists now.
It's the only way I can accept the massive budget needed for a dedicated aquarium is if its done extremely well and geographically, ideally with things positioned as close to its matching geographic zone outside of the aquarium as possible.
I believe there were originally plans for an ocean pavilion while the zoo was being developed. As the budget grew the plan was dropped. Definitely one of the great missed opportunities.
I believe there were originally plans for an ocean pavilion while the zoo was being developed. As the budget grew the plan was dropped. Definitely one of the great missed opportunities.
Having all the groups of animals featured in the geographically organized zoo is critical in my mind. No insect house and no aquarium please. Are we going to have a reptile house and aviary next? Please no. The whole point of the pavilions is to showcase an ecosystem with its various tiers of life, big and small, not just one or two showcase animals. I enjoy the aesthetic of feeling like I'm in an actual living jungle, with native bird calls and exotic fish in the ponds and tanks. Taking these things away and segregating them in their own buildings would break the immersion in my humble opinion.
@Esox, you do bring up a great point about immersion. Seeing animals in context is great too.
I think I could take bugs being separate because I never pay attention to them any way so I really don't care where they are. It's more indifference on my part then support for that idea. You could drop every bug from the zoo and I wouldn't notice.
The aquarium is different for the reasons I have already outlined. I do think where possible you should keep the fish in context though. I wouldnt say move the cichlids just because you have a new pavilion. I wish the Americas had a nice aquarium space for the Amazon. If an aquarium was built I would prefer the focus be on the oceans. In that case if the Great Barrier Reef moved I wouldnt be sad about that. I have always found it underwhelming and far more deserving of something epic. There will never be space in the pavilion for something good enough. A new aquarium would be offer the zoo a chance to do it justice. I think in the end if you really focused the aquarium on the oceans with only small possible additional areas for underrepresented aquatic life you would have a very strong immersive building. I can picture the place.
I think I could take bugs being separate because I never pay attention to them any way so I really don't care where they are. It's more indifference on my part then support for that idea. You could drop every bug from the zoo and I wouldn't notice.
The aquarium is different for the reasons I have already outlined. I do think where possible you should keep the fish in context though. I wouldnt say move the cichlids just because you have a new pavilion. I wish the Americas had a nice aquarium space for the Amazon. If an aquarium was built I would prefer the focus be on the oceans. In that case if the Great Barrier Reef moved I wouldnt be sad about that. I have always found it underwhelming and far more deserving of something epic. There will never be space in the pavilion for something good enough. A new aquarium would be offer the zoo a chance to do it justice. I think in the end if you really focused the aquarium on the oceans with only small possible additional areas for underrepresented aquatic life you would have a very strong immersive building. I can picture the place.
With hopefully less then a week to go now before we see the master plan left let's move on to the last big question I had for everyone, what is something you want to see addressed, whether it was in the old plan or not that has been an ongoing issue or something you feel has been missing?
Firstly I want to continue to see the zoo doing the small projects they have been doing over the last two years during the pandemic. The long ignored projects but the ones that have really been helping to make the zoo look a million times better by removing eyesores or addressing long standing issues. We all agree virtually all the bathrooms on site gave off a hope you survive entering vibe. Dark, cramped, creepy, smelly, dirty, old, tired, ugly. Its saying a lot when you would rather hold it until you can get to a cleaner gas station then go in there. Thrilled to know even before the plan that work will be continuing. Also like that the paths are being addressed because a lot of those hills can be hard on even healthy adults forget, the elderly, children, and people with mobility issues. But even smaller upgrades like the reptile and amphibian exhibits, and murals in exhibits have been wonderful. I would be absolutely content if the masterplan announced they were going to heavily focus on small projects like replacing guest barriers, improving viewing, covering concrete, trying to make individual exhibits feel more natural. Big projects like redeveloping Domain are great but the zoo rarely is capable of pulling off those big projects to the cutting edge, immersive, innovative, world class level we all dream of. If they wanna move the Domain go for it but build it to world class levels one or two exhibits at a time so what you give us is worthy of the hype unlike the massive let down we call Eurasia were everything was just barely good enough.
Along that idea I think adding more shaded viewing structures for guests and benches would be nice. In the heat of summer just getting out of the blazing sun is nice. Add some solar panels to the top and put a fan underneath maybe so people can really cool off. The benches are nice too because we are talking about an absolutely massive zoo. One of the largest physically in the world. Not everyone can keep going all day with little to no break. Add some benches in spots where people can kick back and enjoy the animals without blocking other guests or being blocked by other guests. Oh and some improved vantage points would be nice. Maybe add some elevated viewing decks, especially around restaurants so you can eat and still get some views of the animals. Ok that might be a lot more expensive but great views or underneath some covered and shaded dining could be well worth it as you also double capacity but in a smaller footprint.
The Domain is an issue the just needs to be dealt with finally. It's the last totally untouched area of the zoo since opening. All thats been done down there in nearly 50 years (depending on when it was build before the zoo opened maybe 50) is state of good repair work. All other areas of the zoo now have had varying degrees of face lifts. Maybe not massive remodels but at least there has been some noticeable work done on either individual exhibits or elements of the area. We are Canada's largest zoo and considered by many to be the country's best (that's arguable as Calgary does amazing work on exhibits and leads in many conservation projects as well), the zoo deserves an amazing Canadian section not the weak Domain we generally all avoid.
Id like to see the Americas be converted either to North America or South America exclusively and get an upgrade. Its just looking tired and I think they could do so much more if they just focused on one area or another.
Definitely would be nice if they addressed the barn space issue in the savanna. They are always complaining there isnt enough barn space to do this or that. Fix it. Lets ignore the savanna pavilion for a moment which would hopefully address that for the hoofstock in the center area. The ostrich/wildebeest barn has long been an issue. They admit it was one of the biggest mistakes when they built the savanna. I know they have plans to cover one of the holding yards to improve winter holding but lets spend the money and knock it down and start again. There is tons of space around it to really expand it and still have covered winter yards. If they invested in a bigger better barn they could combine the two exhibits and use it as a second mixed paddock and chuck another species or two in there no problem. Its a good chunk of space which is being wasted because they cannot add to the area. And I have no clue why when they built the watusi barn they chose to go so small. Its another big paddock that if it had a bigger barn could support a mixed exhibit. The hyena barn is so undersized that we have to give up any hope of breeding because we have 4 adults and no room for cubs. The hippo barn is probably a huge factor in loosing the hippos because it needs so much work so to reuse their exhibit a new barn is needed there too. We have had to split our zebra herd because we cant house 6 zebras and 3 eland in their barn. The rhino barn is probably the only one with enough space as they can take on the ostriches every winter and has held spare warthogs in the past too. The baboon house will likely need help too when phase out is complete depending on what goes in there.
I want them to do something about fixing the sadness that is Tundra Trek. It opened with such great hopes. It is largely beautiful, but could be tweaked a little more to earn a the honour of rivaling Africa. What makes it so hard to love it though is the animal situation. They need to figure out what they are gonna do to make the are feel alive again. Right now it's just sad and I dont want to to stay sad another decade or more. Just do something to bring the life back. The polar bears, wolves and caribou can only shoulder so much of the burden and non of them are in breeding situations to contribute the highlight of babies now.
I know the gorilla outdoor is being done in the master plan so its not something I think stands out as an unaddressed problem. However there has been no indication that the dayroom is gonna be touched. It's an eyesore in an otherwise nearly perfect pavilion. I know the doors are often closed and people rarely realize its there even but it wouldnt take much to fix it. Murals, fake tree and rockwork, more natural substrate, make it feel more natural and it would be a million times better without expanding or really changing it in any massively expensive way. Just look at how the murals and dressings made such a massive difference in the primate wing of the Americas. Please zoo just hide that 1970's gorilla prison from my sight and I will be thrilled. In my head I would do so much more to the dayroom and really expand it but at this point just make it look like you tried and I will be cool.
Thats the ones I can think of at the moment.
Firstly I want to continue to see the zoo doing the small projects they have been doing over the last two years during the pandemic. The long ignored projects but the ones that have really been helping to make the zoo look a million times better by removing eyesores or addressing long standing issues. We all agree virtually all the bathrooms on site gave off a hope you survive entering vibe. Dark, cramped, creepy, smelly, dirty, old, tired, ugly. Its saying a lot when you would rather hold it until you can get to a cleaner gas station then go in there. Thrilled to know even before the plan that work will be continuing. Also like that the paths are being addressed because a lot of those hills can be hard on even healthy adults forget, the elderly, children, and people with mobility issues. But even smaller upgrades like the reptile and amphibian exhibits, and murals in exhibits have been wonderful. I would be absolutely content if the masterplan announced they were going to heavily focus on small projects like replacing guest barriers, improving viewing, covering concrete, trying to make individual exhibits feel more natural. Big projects like redeveloping Domain are great but the zoo rarely is capable of pulling off those big projects to the cutting edge, immersive, innovative, world class level we all dream of. If they wanna move the Domain go for it but build it to world class levels one or two exhibits at a time so what you give us is worthy of the hype unlike the massive let down we call Eurasia were everything was just barely good enough.
Along that idea I think adding more shaded viewing structures for guests and benches would be nice. In the heat of summer just getting out of the blazing sun is nice. Add some solar panels to the top and put a fan underneath maybe so people can really cool off. The benches are nice too because we are talking about an absolutely massive zoo. One of the largest physically in the world. Not everyone can keep going all day with little to no break. Add some benches in spots where people can kick back and enjoy the animals without blocking other guests or being blocked by other guests. Oh and some improved vantage points would be nice. Maybe add some elevated viewing decks, especially around restaurants so you can eat and still get some views of the animals. Ok that might be a lot more expensive but great views or underneath some covered and shaded dining could be well worth it as you also double capacity but in a smaller footprint.
The Domain is an issue the just needs to be dealt with finally. It's the last totally untouched area of the zoo since opening. All thats been done down there in nearly 50 years (depending on when it was build before the zoo opened maybe 50) is state of good repair work. All other areas of the zoo now have had varying degrees of face lifts. Maybe not massive remodels but at least there has been some noticeable work done on either individual exhibits or elements of the area. We are Canada's largest zoo and considered by many to be the country's best (that's arguable as Calgary does amazing work on exhibits and leads in many conservation projects as well), the zoo deserves an amazing Canadian section not the weak Domain we generally all avoid.
Id like to see the Americas be converted either to North America or South America exclusively and get an upgrade. Its just looking tired and I think they could do so much more if they just focused on one area or another.
Definitely would be nice if they addressed the barn space issue in the savanna. They are always complaining there isnt enough barn space to do this or that. Fix it. Lets ignore the savanna pavilion for a moment which would hopefully address that for the hoofstock in the center area. The ostrich/wildebeest barn has long been an issue. They admit it was one of the biggest mistakes when they built the savanna. I know they have plans to cover one of the holding yards to improve winter holding but lets spend the money and knock it down and start again. There is tons of space around it to really expand it and still have covered winter yards. If they invested in a bigger better barn they could combine the two exhibits and use it as a second mixed paddock and chuck another species or two in there no problem. Its a good chunk of space which is being wasted because they cannot add to the area. And I have no clue why when they built the watusi barn they chose to go so small. Its another big paddock that if it had a bigger barn could support a mixed exhibit. The hyena barn is so undersized that we have to give up any hope of breeding because we have 4 adults and no room for cubs. The hippo barn is probably a huge factor in loosing the hippos because it needs so much work so to reuse their exhibit a new barn is needed there too. We have had to split our zebra herd because we cant house 6 zebras and 3 eland in their barn. The rhino barn is probably the only one with enough space as they can take on the ostriches every winter and has held spare warthogs in the past too. The baboon house will likely need help too when phase out is complete depending on what goes in there.
I want them to do something about fixing the sadness that is Tundra Trek. It opened with such great hopes. It is largely beautiful, but could be tweaked a little more to earn a the honour of rivaling Africa. What makes it so hard to love it though is the animal situation. They need to figure out what they are gonna do to make the are feel alive again. Right now it's just sad and I dont want to to stay sad another decade or more. Just do something to bring the life back. The polar bears, wolves and caribou can only shoulder so much of the burden and non of them are in breeding situations to contribute the highlight of babies now.
I know the gorilla outdoor is being done in the master plan so its not something I think stands out as an unaddressed problem. However there has been no indication that the dayroom is gonna be touched. It's an eyesore in an otherwise nearly perfect pavilion. I know the doors are often closed and people rarely realize its there even but it wouldnt take much to fix it. Murals, fake tree and rockwork, more natural substrate, make it feel more natural and it would be a million times better without expanding or really changing it in any massively expensive way. Just look at how the murals and dressings made such a massive difference in the primate wing of the Americas. Please zoo just hide that 1970's gorilla prison from my sight and I will be thrilled. In my head I would do so much more to the dayroom and really expand it but at this point just make it look like you tried and I will be cool.
Thats the ones I can think of at the moment.
This is an interesting question @TZFan. You and I share a lot of the same thoughts on this topic, so I don’t want to rehash a lot of what you said, but you did touch on my biggest issue.
Overall aesthetic of exhibits. My love for the zoo stems from my love of photography, so the better the exhibit looks the more I’ll spend time at the exhibit and even become interested in the animal(s). For me exhibit aesthetic goes beyond, glass, fencing, and even murals. Exposed hotwires, background distractions like buckets (of any colour), and large metal poles or structural pillars are the bane of my existence. And of course, vantage points factor into this as well. The more natural looking an exhibit is, the better. And it goes up a notch with more vantage points to view the animals.
So, I’m looking to the outdoor Orangutan exhibit to see what to expect as a baseline of what could be to come for future exhibit development.
Another topic I’d like to see more light shed on is food options provided at the zoo. I’d like to see a more diverse selection of food choices, include food better suited for on the go eating. Let’s see some food trucks take residence to provide something entirely different from what currently being offered.
Overall aesthetic of exhibits. My love for the zoo stems from my love of photography, so the better the exhibit looks the more I’ll spend time at the exhibit and even become interested in the animal(s). For me exhibit aesthetic goes beyond, glass, fencing, and even murals. Exposed hotwires, background distractions like buckets (of any colour), and large metal poles or structural pillars are the bane of my existence. And of course, vantage points factor into this as well. The more natural looking an exhibit is, the better. And it goes up a notch with more vantage points to view the animals.
So, I’m looking to the outdoor Orangutan exhibit to see what to expect as a baseline of what could be to come for future exhibit development.
Another topic I’d like to see more light shed on is food options provided at the zoo. I’d like to see a more diverse selection of food choices, include food better suited for on the go eating. Let’s see some food trucks take residence to provide something entirely different from what currently being offered.
Gee for someone who complains about the food quality for the cost as much as I do, you would think that would have popped into my head. Good one @cypher. Nothing can be done to raise the food quality or cost until they renegotiate with Compass or put the contract out for bid. But food trucks coming in to provide both quality and diversity to the selection would be fairly easy if Compass' contract would allow that option.
hyena142
Well-Known Member
There are definitely a few things that I'd like to see addressed. Personally I think there needs to be a way to see 100% of the zoo's collection at all times of the year, so we don't have to go so many months without being able to see zebras, white rhinos, flamingos, roos and wallabies, etc. They've made steps towards this goal by adding indoor viewing for the giraffes and penguins but there's still a ways to go before we're able to see everything in the winter months.
Americas needs a retheme and some new exhibits, if the rumours are true that the otters and beavers might be moving to other areas then something new and big has to replace them, that's the pavilion's two headliners gone. Tropical is definitely the way to go in my eyes but I also wouldn't mind letting the conservation program animals stick around in there as well. That big grassy field between the pavilion and the Temple is just begging for something, anything to be added there. I think that'd be the perfect place for a Temple expansion.
Obviously I've talked at length about how the Domain needs to go away and this is the time to do it. Everything that isn't a bison is either on the road to phase out (eagles, elk, the lynx is already gone) or has gotten so old that it's probably only a matter of time before they pass (cougar, grizzlies, moose, probably the raccoons as well). Plus they only have a few years to fix the hill before it's no longer up to code and then...I dunno what happens but I imagine the area will get closed prematurely. Dolf, do the Wilderness. You want it, I want it, we all want it.
Finally this is more of a personal one, but I really would like everything to get an aesthetic upgrade. The zoo was state of the art back when it opened but aside from a few upgrades like the Savanna and Gorilla Rainforest it hasn't really changed that much, meanwhile several other zoos around the globe have thoroughly surpassed us. I'd like them to take the time to upgrade some of the older exhibits visually and show everyone that we still have what it takes.
Americas needs a retheme and some new exhibits, if the rumours are true that the otters and beavers might be moving to other areas then something new and big has to replace them, that's the pavilion's two headliners gone. Tropical is definitely the way to go in my eyes but I also wouldn't mind letting the conservation program animals stick around in there as well. That big grassy field between the pavilion and the Temple is just begging for something, anything to be added there. I think that'd be the perfect place for a Temple expansion.
Obviously I've talked at length about how the Domain needs to go away and this is the time to do it. Everything that isn't a bison is either on the road to phase out (eagles, elk, the lynx is already gone) or has gotten so old that it's probably only a matter of time before they pass (cougar, grizzlies, moose, probably the raccoons as well). Plus they only have a few years to fix the hill before it's no longer up to code and then...I dunno what happens but I imagine the area will get closed prematurely. Dolf, do the Wilderness. You want it, I want it, we all want it.
Finally this is more of a personal one, but I really would like everything to get an aesthetic upgrade. The zoo was state of the art back when it opened but aside from a few upgrades like the Savanna and Gorilla Rainforest it hasn't really changed that much, meanwhile several other zoos around the globe have thoroughly surpassed us. I'd like them to take the time to upgrade some of the older exhibits visually and show everyone that we still have what it takes.
Good point, @hyena142, about the need to get more animals out in the winter. People are more likely to want to visit in the winter if they see it as worthwhile. The savanna pavilion would go a long way to ensure some of the most popular species are on display all winter.
Excellent point too about how the zoo which was once cutting edge and clearly world class has slipped as other zoos have redeveloped and just sped right past Toronto which seemed content forever to be just good enough. I'm not sure Toronto is considered amongst the premier world class zoos anymore. I think there can honestly be a great argument made that Calgary is the best Canadian zoo. Toronto should be the finest zoo in Canada and I hope the master plan is designed to put the zoo back on top in the country and be a major contender on the world stage.
Excellent point too about how the zoo which was once cutting edge and clearly world class has slipped as other zoos have redeveloped and just sped right past Toronto which seemed content forever to be just good enough. I'm not sure Toronto is considered amongst the premier world class zoos anymore. I think there can honestly be a great argument made that Calgary is the best Canadian zoo. Toronto should be the finest zoo in Canada and I hope the master plan is designed to put the zoo back on top in the country and be a major contender on the world stage.
What everyone else has said about the aesthetics of the zoo has hit the nail on the head. It’s what has me most excited about the master plan, that the zoo can be greatly modernized.
I love the zoo don’t get me wrong, but it’s hard not to compare Toronto to other zoos and feel disappointed. When I see a nice new exhibit complex at a zoo in the US/Europe, I wish we could aim for that. Even smaller zoos in Canada have impressed me more, such as Assiniboine, look at their amazing Journey to Churchill region.
There are older regions that such as Indo or the Americas pavilion that will obviously show their age. But even with new projects like Tundra trek or parts of Eurasia there issues like ugly and unnatural fencing, Hotwire, mesh, poor sight lines, poorly hidden holding buildings etc. For the longest time I feel there hasn’t been a strong vision for the zoo.
Hopefully we get to see some nice changes in the Master plan. With Dolf and team I’m hopeful. I think they have the passion and the right mindset for the zoo going forward. It does seem that overdue changes are on the horizon!
I love the zoo don’t get me wrong, but it’s hard not to compare Toronto to other zoos and feel disappointed. When I see a nice new exhibit complex at a zoo in the US/Europe, I wish we could aim for that. Even smaller zoos in Canada have impressed me more, such as Assiniboine, look at their amazing Journey to Churchill region.
There are older regions that such as Indo or the Americas pavilion that will obviously show their age. But even with new projects like Tundra trek or parts of Eurasia there issues like ugly and unnatural fencing, Hotwire, mesh, poor sight lines, poorly hidden holding buildings etc. For the longest time I feel there hasn’t been a strong vision for the zoo.
Hopefully we get to see some nice changes in the Master plan. With Dolf and team I’m hopeful. I think they have the passion and the right mindset for the zoo going forward. It does seem that overdue changes are on the horizon!
hyena142
Well-Known Member
I tend to be a hype man by nature, I like to really spotlight the one good thing I like in stuff rather than focus on all the bad around it, so I'm a lot more forgiving on the zoo's shortcomings. That said I can't help but feel like a lot of the more recent projects could've been a lot more if they just allowed themselves to grow beyond their 70s roots, or hell even just go back to the place they were in the late 90s when all the Africa redos were happening. I'm getting good vibes about the outdoor orangs so hopefully this is the start of a new era but it's something I really hope gets addressed.
I would love to be more forgiving of the zoo's shortcomings but my problem is when they have done anything the last 10-15 years they fell well short of what was possible if they had maybe just taken their time. The way the zoo is crippled by finances so much smaller projects based on the budget available probably would achieve more. Its back to that smaller project concept we all seem to love. Nothing massive has opened since covid but there was a ton of work being done and we all agree it made a big impression. I think Dolf and crew might have it right. A constant stream of worker to improve the little things while they wait on the one big thing and that big thing isn't a total area redevelopment. They are doing what they can afford to do but it seems like a quicker pace because more small things are being achieved. If they go for their plan to do lots of little things, several medium sized projects and a handful of big projects it might be the right thing to get the zoo back on top were it belongs.