UK Zoos closed due to COVID-19

Tim Brown said:
The grant offered to my business was /is gratis as far as i know...but then I qualify as a "small business",many zoos will be above and beyond that definition. To be honest,to suppose that businesses other than large ones have separate funds defined as "capital projects" is not the norm...thats where banks come in. Some zoos have a capital projects/improvements pot however,and will now have to dip into it for running costs. The future isnt bright.
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I appreciate smaller zoos often operate on a wing and a prayer for capital projects. I was more making the point that councils operating funds for capital projects is generally absurd in the current environment. Also, beyond zoos I'm struggling to think of many small businesses that need large capital projects to operate (that wouldn't be able to fund them through bank loans, etc.).

Unfortunately the emergency measures had to be quick rather than targeted, hence a sizeable minority falling through the cracks. Note the grant you received is unlikely to be completely gratis -most of these grants are subject to tax (not spotted one that isn't yet).
 
Shorts said:
Truly bizarre, given general business method is to finance long-term (i.e. capital projects) with long term finance* I struggle to see why a local authority** would deem capital projects a priority over revenue grants to cover day-to-day running of a business.

*i.e. a well-run business would generally have finance in place for capital projects

**that said local authorities are renowned for ploughing their own furrows (always easier when you've not earned the money yourself).
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We are as confused as you, but that is the position. Our accountant has been onto it most of the morning and the (quite substantial) grants are for new capital development only, 80% up to£250,000 and 50% for between £250,000 and £5m.
 
Shorts said:
most of these grants are subject to tax (not spotted one that isn't yet).
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Grants, furlough payments for staff, 'help' towards ni or employers pension payments are ALL classed as 'income' and are all fully taxable - not that we're likely to make much 'profit' this year...!
 
Andrew Swales said:
If the Government does intend killing us off by neglect in 6 months or a years time, they might have more of a political problem on their hands than they expect - or maybe they do know, which could be why our MP did not reply?
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I don't think this government would have any intention at all, zoos might be collateral damage, but looking for deliberate intentions is a bit much. That said there must be loads of companies of similar sizes as zoo, operating on similar margins, that now face the same situation. It would be interesting to identify these groups and collaborate to make one very strong statement.

With regards to the letter, I am not surprised you have not got a reply yet, if I would receive a letter in the combative style as you wrote, it would not create any goodwill, nor would I be inclined to do something with it. I would gladly help you to write a more measured letter, in which the main points you want to make are clearer, without offending anyone.
 
Andrew Swales said:
It does look,Tim as though we might be able to get the £25,000 leisure grant. We have applied, and had confirmation that it is being considered by our LA and an answer might be available in June.
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At least that's something, good luck. The original intention was that these grants were distributed by LA's as soon as they could with them receiving, from central government, in mid-April. In my area some LA's are contacting businesses and others are setting up portals for applications -I know off at least one business that's received the, lower, £10,000 grant.

With the caveat that LA's are laws unto themselves let's hope yours pull their finger out!
 
Andrew Swales said:
Grants, furlough payments for staff, 'help' towards ni or employers pension payments are ALL classed as 'income' and are all fully taxable - not that we're likely to make much 'profit' this year...!
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No need to worry re the furlough receipts, they'll be cancelled out, for tax, by the wages paid. :D As you say though, it's all a little moot this year.

Right, back to paid-for accounting work.
 
lintworm said:
I don't think this government would have any intention at all, zoos might be collateral damage, but looking for deliberate intentions is a bit much. That said there must be loads of companies of similar sizes as zoo, operating on similar margins, that now face the same situation. It would be interesting to identify these groups and collaborate to make one very strong statement.

With regards to the letter, I am not surprised you have not got a reply yet, if I would receive a letter in the combative style as you wrote, it would not create any goodwill, nor would I be inclined to do something with it. I would gladly help you to write a more measured letter, in which the main points you want to make are clearer, without offending anyone.
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Thank you very much indeed. May I keep your kind offer 'up our sleeve' as it were; as 'my' letter was not actually just mine, but was very much the joint effort of many, many people, both before it was sent and subsequently.
 
Andrew Swales said:
It does look, Tim as though we might be able to get the £25,000 leisure grant. We have applied, and had confirmation that it is being considered by our LA and an answer might be available in June. The same LA of course that we have been 'dealing with' over other issues since June 2017. If we do get it, yes it has already been spent and we are back into overdraft.
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Fingers distinctly crossed that you do get it!

Speaking in general terms, one hopes and wonders whether the recent outpouring of positive media attention and public support in regards to zoos here in the UK will spell a "sea change" away from the anti-brigade and towards a much more zoo-positive atmosphere.... even if some zoos do not survive to enjoy it :(
 
Andrew Swales said:
Thank you very much indeed. May I keep your kind offer 'up our sleeve' as it were; as 'my' letter was not actually just mine, but was very much the joint effort of many, many people, both before it was sent and subsequently.
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No worries, you may. As I have a safe "job", I am not very stressed out with day to day worries/grievances, so might be able to have a more neutral view...
 
TeaLovingDave said:
....even if some zoos do not survive :(
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Someone, sometime, will have to make a decision about what to do with the animals involved...
It can be relatively easily proven that cost of closing a zoo would be greater than the assets recovered, even if living, breathing animals were not involved - with help, I proved this through the Courts defending an attempted divorce settlement.... Hamerton, remember has been through some of this before - and we were very much on our own then!
Ultimately the UK ZLA puts the responsibility for the closure of a zoo in the hands of the licensing authority, so they are legally responsible if the owners hand them the keys. None of us ever expected we would see this happen, but...
This could be why the media has been 'warned off' and much of the anti-zoo bashing has stopped.
In the short-term day-by-day I see little risk due to the levels of support from the public especially for the smaller collections who can survive on the public hand-outs - but when the bills come in, or for larger zoos with huge borrowings and massive costs - as Tim says above, it is indeed worrying.
Maybe BIAZA does have more to worry about than a small place not on their 'approved' list...
 
Shorts said:
At least that's something, good luck. The original intention was that these grants were distributed by LA's as soon as they could with them receiving, from central government, in mid-April. In my area some LA's are contacting businesses and others are setting up portals for applications -I know off at least one business that's received the, lower, £10,000 grant.

With the caveat that LA's are laws unto themselves let's hope yours pull their finger out!
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A zoo is entitled to the grant if your Rateable Value is below 51k, the LA don't need to consider anything! My local council started paying out a week ago, but I know some councils have been slow! June though is disgraceful, as far as I'm aware all councils already have the money!!
 
pipaluk said:
A zoo is entitled to the grant if your Rateable Value is below 51k, the LA don't need to consider anything! My local council started paying out a week ago, but I know some councils have been slow! June though is disgraceful, as far as I'm aware all councils already have the money!!
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I know that I get into trouble for disagreeing with people on here - but:

Whatever your opinion, the letter from our LA says that they consider it likely that we are entitled to the £25,000 (our r/v is £38,000). On supplying our data via the portal, we have been informed that they will now consider it - as I said. You may have complete faith in local politics, but I hope you will forgive us (based on our experience in the last few years) if we remain sceptical!

You might also be interested to know that our bank (Lloyds) has just taken our monthly standing orders, despite promising in writing that they would 'freeze' all our loans; and that the promised VAT/paye/ni 'holiday' is dependent on a repayment plan being formally agreed with HMRC and as they wont/cant tell us when our income stream will start again, this cannot even be calculated, let alone agreed.

My original point that all this is little more than smoke and mirrors, remains - along of course, with my hope that I am soon proved wrong.
 
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Andrew Swales said:
I know that I get into trouble for disagreeing with people on here - but:

Whatever your opinion, the letter from our LA says that they consider it likely that we are entitled to the £25,000 (our r/v is £38,000). On supplying our data via the portal, we have been informed that they will now consider it - as I said. You may have complete faith in local politics, but I hope you will forgive us (based on our experience in the last few years) if we remain sceptical!

You might also be interested to know that our bank (Lloyds) has just taken our monthly standing orders, despite promising in writing that they would 'freeze' all our loans; and that the promised VAT/paye/ni 'holiday' is dependent on a repayment plan being formally agreed with HMRC and as they wont/cant tell us when our income stream will start again, this cannot even be calculated, let alone agreed.

My original point that all this is little more than smoke and mirrors, remains - along of course, with my hope that I am soon proved wrong.
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Sorry, I don't doubt that there are issues with your local Council and they are clearly not helpful if they may not pay out until June. All I was trying to say was that there is no question that you qualify for the government scheme and Council's are meant to pay out, the government instructions are clear, so hopefully it is just a standard reply and they will pay out what you are entitled to. It's not the Council's money so there is no reason for them to withold your 25k or not to give you 100% rate relief for the year 2020/21
 
An interesting point, continuing those made by Tim and Dave above, but not raised so far as I can see - is the ultimate 'safety net' provided by the UK's ZLA, which ought in a bizarre and perverse way prevent zoo closures in the UK.

It is written into the Act (and a requirement of inspections, and the granting of a license) that a zoo has to have in place a plan for its closure. I do not know what is detailed in other instances, but this has come up several times during our inspections.

When we honestly replied that we did not have one and would not know how to produce one, the inspection panel's reply was that no-one did, so what they would put down was that the Local Council would simply be handed the keys, and the 'yes' box would be ticked. That was what they usually did. From that moment on responsibility would rest with the LA, and National Government in the form of DEFRA.

This puts all zoos here, regardless of their structure, in a very different position from the 'normal taxable businesses' contributors on here continually compare them with - as I keep banging on! It produces a kind of in-built nationalisation, and some of us on here are old enough to know what 'nationalisation' means.

Presumably when the bills come in for all these short-term deferred 'holidays', the number of such could be large. It is strange that a Conservative administration with such a huge majority and mandate is the one faced with this.

So, the Government will have to pay in the end. Surely it would be easier to give a little in the immediate future to prevent this? Given our track record we have proved that we are the best people to run our zoos - certainly better that Local Authorities...

Whatever we think of our politicians, they clearly have not risen to where they sit if they are stupid - so we must presume that if we have worked this out, so have they - or they will do so very soon...?
 
Just been informed a second event I was hoping to attend has now been cancelled this one is in September and as Bird Fair in August stated it was under government advise so don't see the closure of captive collections ending soon.
Stay safe and well and let's hope all our Captive friends make it through.
 
On this matter of "handing back the keys" how does this work if "the zoo" (ie the operator) doesn't own the site?
 
SHAVINGTONZOO said:
On this matter of "handing back the keys" how does this work if "the zoo" (ie the operator) doesn't own the site?
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You'd need to seek advice on that, as I can't answer - in our case these were verbal assurances given at ZL inspections and clearly accepted by our LA, as they subsequently granted the licence in full with no conditions, recommendations or directions attached to that item. For that reason we accepted that this was the normal procedure, and moved on. I would guess that the zoo operator, ie the holder of the license, is the one in ultimately in charge and would 'have the keys', as with any other situation the landlord could be anyone, absent or otherwise.
 
AdrianW1963 said:
Just been informed a second event I was hoping to attend has now been cancelled this one is in September and as Bird Fair in August stated it was under government advise so don't see the closure of captive collections ending soon.
Stay safe and well and let's hope all our Captive friends make it through.
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It will be interesting to see. Logically (hic!), bird fairs, country shows, game fairs etc rely on attracting large concentrated numbers of people to one site for a short period, like a music festival. Country zoos are quite the opposite, they are open every day, do not need concentrated attendance, provide easy 'social distancing' and could quite easily introduce some sort of localised, limited remote on-line ticketing system to control daily numbers. Just before full closure the Australian Government introduced a 500 person per day, per site, limit. We could see a similar 'soft' opening, especially if public tolerance of the imposed lock-down starts to wane. Captive collections which are wholly indoors might be another matter, along with other enclosed public spaces, like pubs, and clubs, play-barns, museums, restaurants, public transport, aeroplanes etc etc.
 
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