What are your 'must see' recommendations for 2008 and why?

[johnstoni]

Oh really? I have never managed to find decent images of the facility at belfast. I just assumed the chimpanzees had similar enclosures to the gorillas. Although not in the UK,
I had thought Dublin may have had trees in their chimpanzee enclosure.

What is the reason that zoos do this so little? Is there an issue of toxic plants being hard to exclude? Or just the destructive nature of great apes with regard to vegetation? I mean what is stopping a UK collection enclosing an area of woodland for great apes? Port Lympne goes as far to situate it's walled grass lawn for gorillas IN a woodland, only there are no trees for them to climb in the actual enclosure.

I read that Nuremberg Zoo has mature, live trees in the gorilla enclosure which are climbed by some of the apes, yet in the UK a typical ape enclosure would be something like the bonobo accomodation at Twycross.

 

[Newzooboy]

Apologies, I meant Dublin, not Belfast.....

Some photos of this enclosure on my gallery...

Cheers

 

[Pertinax]

What is the reason that zoos do this so little? Is there an issue of toxic plants being hard to exclude? Or just the destructive nature of great apes with regard to vegetation? I mean what is stopping a UK collection enclosing an area of woodland for great apes?

My guess is the zoos know that with constant, daily use nearly 365 days a year, the trees would soon become wrecked and look very unnattractive. Port Lympne have done it fine with monkeys, but their open gorilla enclosures, though very large, are, by contrast, in very open settings. I couldn't understand why they didn't site them in the other direction so they encompassed the woodlands- I'm sure the gorillas would then have used them much more than they do (which is hardly at all....) If large enough, tree damage may have been controllable too.

In 'naturalised' ape enclosures the usual trick is to hotwire most or all the living trees and give the apes access only to climbing frames and dead trees. I think this is how places like Apenheul keep the trees looking in good condition. But I think the gorilla group at Vallee de Singes in France may have full access to the trees on their island though. Paignton's orangutans also have full access to the tall living trees on their island, yet I've never seen them use them(or indeed go further than a few yards from the indoor house) By contrast at Paignton, 3 of the 4 'Monkey Heights' enclosures for monkeys each have a large mature Plane Tree in the centre, these are electrified to prevent the monkeys' access(and damage) to the trees. No doubt these trees have preservation orders on them, but it does seem odd to see the monkeys restricted to using climbing frames at almost ground level and denied access to these huge trees growing in the enclosures...

 

[johnstoni]

I must say this issue interests me a great deal. For some time I assumed that the barren state of many modern primate enclosures was due to the risk of ingestion of toxic plant matter, growing unnoticed in a wooded setting, but it seems the main reason is damage to trees?

I was in fact referring to the family gorilla group at Port Lypmne, I had forgotten about the bachelor groups, but this is a very good point. I find it interesting that, as you say, Vallee de Singes in France, and Nuremberg, allow access to living trees, as does Paignton with the Orangs (and has done for many years with some of its gibbons on the older islands), and Dublin with its chimpanzees. I have a feeling the same is true of Blair Drummond, but I haven't been or seen decent photos of the chimpanzee island there.

I would really love to see a UK collection actually house chimpanzees or Gorillas in a section of woodland, with access to mature trees, given that this is clearly possible from other examples in temperate zoological collections, rather than the other attempts to use sub-tropical plants as with Pongoland, or masses of hotwire.

There is even less excuse not to do this with monkeys, and if there are indeed preservation orders (on what is essentially an introduced tree species) at monkey heights in paignton, you'd think they might have wanted to locate a site where the trees could be utilised for more than aesthetic effect. Gatwick zoo and Suffolk wildlife park both maintained groups of spider monkeys in living trees, the latter also had barbary macaques on the island now occupied by ring-tailed lemurs, again with several unprotected live trees. Elsewhere on this forum I posted images of the dense wooded capuchin islands at the Irish monkey sanctuary. There has been a recent trend for 'budget' primate enclosures in some collections, where essentially a piece of grass is enclosed in a hotwire fence and a few upright posts connected by a rope to house gibbons, spider monkeys, or macaques (I'm thinking South lakes, Dudley, Trotters). I have read comments about the 'Wooden drum' structures at Port Lympne and howletts, but the creeping trend for highly arboreal species such as the Ateles. sp and gibbons to be kept on glorified lawns makes these old cages look infinitely superior in terms of actual climbing space.

 

[Pertinax]

I would really love to see a UK collection actually house chimpanzees or Gorillas in a section of woodland, with access to mature trees

There is even less excuse not to do this with monkeys, and if there are indeed preservation orders (on what is essentially an introduced tree species) at monkey heights in paignton, you'd think they might have wanted to locate a site where the trees could be utilised for more than aesthetic effect.

I have read comments about the 'Wooden drum' structures at Port Lympne and howletts, but the creeping trend for highly arboreal species such as the Ateles. sp and gibbons to be kept on glorified lawns makes these old cages look infinitely superior in terms of actual climbing space.

I'm pretty sure the reason is aethsetic/damage limitation rather than worry about animals eating wrong things. Port Lympne would be the most likely to have exhibited Gorillas in woodland- but despite having plenty(of both!) they haven't done so. Yet they have done it with several monkey species now. The old style 'drum' cages for monkeys are quite spacious but very old fashioned- they are a relic really and seem to have now been superseded by the electrified woodland enclosures- I wish these could be done for all their primate species but they tend to only build them spasmodically.
Chimps- there's surely scope for somewhere to do this and be the first in the Uk. Arnhem in Holland has a big chimpanzee colony which 'looks' as if it is living in a natural woodland, but here again the live trees are hotwired. Even then the chimps still get into them sometimes and break of branches of foliage.
Its interesting you mention the Spider monkeys at Suffolk WP- if I remember correctly there's only a single tree in the enclosure- a mature Oak, yet it doesn't seem to have suffered at all from continual use the quite large group(12+) monkeys Its the tree that makes this a good exhibit.

I also agree that at Paignton I would have chosen a site backing onto woodland(of which they have plenty) to exhibit the monkeys in much more natural settings. Not allowing them to use the Plane trees seems worse than if there were no trees in the enclosures at all... As you said, Plane trees aren't native but these mature trees have been there a long time(part of the old cattle sheds complex) so could still have tree orders on them...

 

[Newzooboy]

If I remember correctly, David Hancocks makes this point (albeit in reference to enclosures on a global scale) in his book 'A Different Nature' with particular reference to the gorilla enclosure at Woodland Park Zoo.....

I wonder if the problem is one of visibility to the public in such highly wooded enclosures??

Dublin actually exhibit one of their chimp groups on the more 'traditional' primate islands in the main part of the zoo (as well as another group on the wooded island in the 'African' extension) which also has indoor viewing, so some chimps are generally always on view even if the ones 'in the trees' are not.

Some trees/ plants may be toxic to the apes in such enclosures but these can generally be indentified and removed or hot-wired (I suppose the Yew trees at colchester proved a problem but they just moved the site of the new orang enclosure).

It would be interesting indeed to see how much more captive gorillas would utilise the outdoor space provided if it was shaded and sheltered (as their natural habitat) rather than barren and lawn-like (mentioning no names.....).

I think a little creative thinking could also come up with novel ways to provide public viewing for such an enclosure. There is at least one new UK gorilla facility on the horizon.......

 

[Newzooboy]

Looking back at my pictures of the chimp enclosure at Dublin, it does appear that some trees in the enclosure (esp. the ones the chimps are in!) are defoliated......!

 

[johnstoni]

The suffolk Spider group left a couple of years ago. They were a large group for a while but a deciduous tree survived any rough treatment easily. Similarly, the Gatwick monkey island had one large (oak?) tree, and was able to withstand the attention of a large group of squirrel monkeys and spider monkeys (the ones now at Chessington).

With Paignton its just frustrating as they are, as discussed here, one of the only UK zoos to provide their orangs and gibbons with mature, living, trees to occupy. I'm not surprised the orang-utans have never really taken to them, given that much of their lives were spend on solid climbing structures or the ground, but over time one would hope the inhabitants gradually gain confidence to use them.

The defoliated tree in dublin could just be one of the favorite vantage points for the chimps. In a way, although rather unnatural for the apes, we are fortunate in temperate zoos to have deciduous trees which will replenish their foliage every year.

I'm mainly interested in why this hasn't been attempted with gorillas. Far less arboreal than even chimpanzees, and too big to defoliate the smaller branches, and so much more comfortable under cover or in secluded habitat, I would expect the first UK collection brave enough to attempt this to have amazing results behaviourally. I wonder what Marwell is planning in this respect. Hopefully it will be more Paignton or Port Lympne than Twycross or Blackpool....

 

[gentle lemur]

I can offer a couple of answers to the primates + vegetation question.
Gorilla Island at Blackpool has quite thick vegetation; the gorillas don't get access all day, every day but they do look well there and they spend a long time foraging apparently happily. This photo was taken in summer 2005, it shows the silverback Jitu. Blackpool also keep their black howlers with natural trees and they look very well.

[photo=3245;564;Blackpool003a035.jpg]Jitu on Gorilla Mountain, Blackpool[/photo]

Chester's orangs in RotRA have done a lot of damage to the plants in the interior enclosures (predictably), but the trees and shrubs in the outdoor enclosures (which don't seem to be hotwired) are doing quite well. The chimps also have plenty of shrubs on their island. The other monkey islands all have live trees and shrubs. The Celebes black apes' trees look a pretty sad, but all the others are OK (although the other monkeys don't use their islands very much). The vegetation on the mandrill's island is so thick it can be hard to see them even if they are out, unless they come very close.

[photo=3246;557;Chester013_501.jpg]Mandrill[/photo]

Alan

 

[Writhedhornbill]

Thanks for those pictures Alan.

I must admit, I've only ever seen the Sulawesi macaques and the Spider monkey's outside!

 

[Jurek7]

I must say this issue interests me a great deal. For some time I assumed that the barren state of many modern primate enclosures was due to the risk of ingestion of toxic plant matter, growing unnoticed in a wooded setting, but it seems the main reason is damage to trees?

Great apes and monkeys (esp. Old World monkeys and capuchins) kill trees by stripping leaves and bark and breaking branches. Apes additionally break branches every night to build nests. So trees within few months or few years are reduced to decomposing trunks.

Lemurs, gibbons, callitrichids, squirrel monkeys and perhaps spider monkeys don't damage trees (that much).

Some zoos now experiment with inedible tree species, large areas and partial protection of trees. I wonder how this succeeds in longer term.

I guess you could succeed by large area, planting "sacrifical" edible plants, like beans, periodic changing of electric wire and combination of fast growing shrubs like willow, thorny ones like buckthorn, and inedible ones like Pterocarya.

Maybe ZooPlantMan can tell more? It also interests me.

 

[Zooplantman]

In my experience, apes and monkeys can have green exhibits if they are big enough (the exhibits, of course ).
As was said, planted areas can be hot-wired off...but that takes space away from animal movement.

Toxic plants ought to be screened out by designers and watched for by keepers.
There are few plants that are truely inedible yet not toxic.
And there is no universal agreement on what is unacceptably toxic. Some curators and vets are more savvy than others and allow more plant species. Others are very very conservative and don't trust planted exhibits
(I've seen similar resistance among some bird curators and keepers to planted aviaries. Landscapes get in the way of what the humans want to do and they don't value the exhibit experience as such)

Different species (animals) destroy plants in different ways, so that must be considered. Gorillas and chimps, for example

Still, at the Kansas City Zoo (Missouri, US) the chimps get up into big trees. They weren't supposed to, but the hot wire apparently broke down and the chimps and trees have co-existed nicely for years. In Philadelphia Zoo, the orangs get into trees. In Cincinnati siamangs and gibbons are in trees. In both cases, I believe it has to do with the size of the trees. Night nests aren't an issue in zoos since most zoos retreat the animals at the end of the day.

North Carolina Zoo used to hot wire off areas, grow vegetables in them and then remove the hot wire. This was a gorilla exhibit. I don't know if they still do that.

When I planned the landscape for the Bronx Zoo's Congo Gorilla Forest, I felt like I was collecting every thorny species of plant available!

From what I have heard, European zoos are not as interested in planted exhibits (there are some terrific exceptions) as US and Australian zoos (there are some awful exceptions). Is that true. though?

Just some quick thoughts. I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating things that have already been said.

 

[johnstoni]

This is what I'm talking about! (Chimps at Kansas City/ Nuremberg gorillas/ Vallee des Singes....)
Gentle lemur, great photos. I hadn't realised the island at Blackpool had become so densely vegetated since I visited. But I was really thinking in terms of mature trees, as there are quite a few ape exhibits in the UK that have good shrubs growing, including Longleat, even Bristol, (although does pamaps grass even count?). It is interesting to hear the comments on how primates damage vegetation. I would still be surprised if gorillas did a great deal of harm in a wooded area consisting of mature temperate deciduous tree species, and presumably most of the group would not choose to climb them extensively. It's interesting to hear the how zoo planners rationalise the inclusion/ exclusion of plants in ape facilities too, I had thought there was an element of risk assessment involved with such valuable animals as gorillas, and it would sound like this is the case to an extent. Maybe we are just still in the early days of even allowing trees in our primate exhibits, and gradually the hotwire will come down as we learn how much attention enclosure vegetation is likely to get from a great ape group.

 

[jwer]

The only example i remember are gibbon exhibits at Apenheul and Emmen Zoo. The one in Emmen has quite a few tree's which are decent sized and it looks great. The Apenheul enclosure has a lot of really tall tree's. Since they are always at the top of them, the animals are not very visable which detracts from the exhibit.

But i did get a feel for what it would be like to see gibbons in the wild and i really got the feeling "this is where they belong". Made me feel really good about the exhibit, so i think it's great...

I can't think of any great ape exhibits with trees in them, except Artis has one big tree which is completely hot-wired off in their Gorilla exhibit. The tree is home to a group of Sykes monkey's though, which can get into the Gorilla exhibit as well as back up the tree so it does make for a good exhibit. All the other exhibits i remember are usually well covered in grass and shrubs, most gorilla islands have height differences and rocky shelters and most orang exhibits have wooden climbing structures or dead trees, but none seem to have live trees...

 

[PAT]

Melbournes exhibit for gorillas is always green and pretty wooded but i don't know if any is hotwired. And the new orang-utan exhibit has ferns and stuff planted allover the ground that occasionally get ripped up but the ground is still well covered.

 

[Pertinax]

With Paignton its just frustrating as they are, as discussed here, one of the only UK zoos to provide their orangs and gibbons with mature, living, trees to occupy. I'm not surprised the orang-utans have never really taken to them, given that much of their lives were spend on solid climbing structures or the ground, but over time one would hope the inhabitants gradually gain confidence to use them.

I'm mainly interested in why this hasn't been attempted with gorillas. Far less arboreal than even chimpanzees, and too big to defoliate the smaller branches, and so much more comfortable under cover or in secluded habitat, I would expect the first UK collection brave enough to attempt this to have amazing results behaviourally. I wonder what Marwell is planning in this respect. Hopefully it will be more Paignton or Port Lympne than Twycross or Blackpool....

1. Paignton orangs- I wasn't surprised the adults from ZSL have never 'learned' to use the outdoor island and trees properly- they were too restricted in their behaviour by the past, rather like Parrots which have been kept in cages all their lives can no longer fly.. But 'Gambira' was born at Paignton and she doesn't seem any different- maybe because her mother 'Bulu' doesn't climb and so never stimulated her either? I hope perhaps the two new animals, or any new offspring, might make for an improvement though I think they also need more stimulation. I'm sure if they could somehow 'bait' the trees with fruit that the orangs could see, then they would start climbing them. It might be difficult to set up though..

2. Apenheul's gorilla group use the heavily treed outdoor island freely during the summer months- however I think they are shut out of their night quarters when the park is open. But they do look very relaxed and at home under the trees, and move back under them after the public feeding sessions at the moat edge. I'm sure any park providing proper outdoor cover for a gorilla group would find an amazing difference in the usage of its outdoor enclosure. If you could even spread huge green awnings over part of the London or Bristol islands,to blot out the sky, I'll bet there would be more a lot more(voluntary) usage by the inhabitants!

3. In the excellent photo of Nurnberg's outdoor gorilla enclosure(above) you can see a low-roofed covered structure to the far right of the picture. The gorillas definately appear to like sitting under this(from photos I've seen) so even with natural trees in the enclosure, it seems the 'security' feel of cover directly overhead is still important. Similarly at Bristol the two females(but not Jock) often use the covered wooden 'windbreak' structure that was added onto their island later on.
In some Gorilla open enclosures the only retreat is a little concrete or wooden 'cave' (examples; London, Paignton, La Palmyre) but the Gorillas use these frequently, or any other shelter provided, indicating their value where no other cover is available.
In the photos of the Kansas and Vallee de Singes chimp exhibits, I'm wondering if they have full access to the growing trees behind the cut logs etc. The Vallee de Singe ones probably do- like their Gorillas- and it ddoes look extremely natural from the photo. Arnhem's chimpanzee eenclosure also looks natural because of the large beech and oak trees growing in it- even though many are hotwired for protection. Chester's chimp group is similar in size to Arnhem's but their enclosure lacks any mature trees- however, it is improving as the protected plantings and bushes begin to mature. They seem not to climb the tall poles very much though?

 

[Pertinax]

Gorilla Island at Blackpool has quite thick vegetation; the gorillas don't get access all day, every day but they do look well there and they spend a long time foraging apparently happily.

Chester's orangs in RotRA have done a lot of damage to the plants in the interior enclosures (predictably), but the trees and shrubs in the outdoor enclosures (which don't seem to be hotwired) are doing quite well.

The vegetation on the mandrill's island is so thick it can be hard to see them even if they are out, unless they come very close.

1. Blackpool gorilla island(formerly a rocky hill for Chamois) is very good nowadays- however I think you'll find when the gorillas use it they are shut out onto it(via a gate/bridge in the old outdoor enclosure wall) after scatter feed has been distributed to lure them onto it. I've seen them waiting expectantly in the old enclosure for the door onto the island to be opened-because they know there is food out there, and it was then shut behind them. That's not to say they are not happy or secure on this well wooded island, but would they still use it for long periods by choice? Another UK island that has or did have vegetation is Longleat's- at one time it was partly covered
in a dense growth of Japanese Knotweed which looked very 'tropical' and the gorillas seemed to leave it alone completely.

2. The Chester orangs clearly prefer(as they did in the old house as well) to stay undercover mostly using the indoor areas, hence in the new house they've totally wrecked the fancy plantings indoors while outside(with far less use) everything has so far been able to flourish. (When I was there they stayed indoors apart from the odd short foray outside) One indoor area they've now experimentally replanted with tougher, less palatable plants like pines- but if this works, and they're left alone, it won't look a very natural background for a tropical ape.

3. Similarly the Chester Mandrills- another deep forest species like Gorilla- obviously prefer to stay under cover inside given the choice, so the vegetation on the island remains largely untouched and has become rampant.(Incidentally on my visits, and like Hornbill, I've only ever seen the Sulawesi macaques and Spider monkeys go outside- never the Liontails or Mandrills. Also I think the vegetation is now too dense-and the moats too wide- to allow for good viewing.) By contrast, Colchester's large group of Mandrills(20+) live in a large 'electrified' fence enclosure. During the day they are shut outdoors(the inside quarters at the back are offshow) so the outdoors is correspondingly bare from enforced overuse(and also the larger group size).

The secret in planting for primates would seem to be to grow plants that are unpalatable, or allow time for them to fully establish to the stage where they are so dense, the primates can no longer destroy them. Not an easy task, given the animals have distinct preference- if given free choice- for parts of their enclosure (e.g. indoor rather than outdoor) so where plants are concerned, it becomes difficult to maintain a good balance between under use(outdoor) and over use(indoor)

 

[Pertinax]

I'm mainly interested in why this hasn't been attempted with gorillas. I wonder what Marwell is planning in this respect. Hopefully it will be more Paignton or Port Lympne than Twycross or Blackpool....

Some years ago they constructed a truly horrendous enclosure for Siamangs at Marwell- it looked more like something from Guantanamo Bay than an enclosure for gibbons. I know it has at last been superseded by something much better, and the Sulawesi Macaque and Colobus/Diana enclosures are fine too.

I just hope when it comes to designing for Gorillas, they don't just go round the zoos(no need to mention which...) with the small interiors and huge little-used open outdoor areas/islands- and then say- okay, that's what we'd better build too....

 

[Zooplantman]

in a dense growth of Japanese Knotweed which looked very 'tropical' and the gorillas seemed to leave it alone completely.

Now that's interesting!
I have always been susspicious of the toxicity of that plant. There is little info on it, but many of its relatives are toxic!
Of course, that the gorillas co-exist with it doesn't make it safe, but at least it can be useable with the right animal.

As to your last point, how often I have argued and other designers have argued for time to allow the landscape to settle in and root in. So much greater success would result. In many projects, we set the construction schedule to allow us to get landscapes in some enclosures planted as early as possible. But inevitably, construction time is kept as short as possible (it's economics, in part) and of course once construction is done, it is rare for a zoo director or board to allow the new FEATURED EXHIBIT to sit there growing in.

 

[johnstoni]

I just don't think that's really the answer though in temperate zoos, unless you hotwire off the planted areas until they are mature. I really think there are a few amazing examples of just using a section of mature woodland, not dense bushes, or overgrown shrubs that completely obscure the animals, but an actual canopy above them.
The point about the chester chimpanzee exhibit is interesting. What is the value of a climbing structure outdoors if it is exposed, to the sky and the elements, when there are equally good structures indoors, under a roof and in the warm?
The behaviour of the apenheul gorillas is significant in my opinion. Although they may not have access to the trees, the real benefit appears to be the cover they afford the animals. Rather than the next big gorilla exhibit in the UK having well-planned planting of carefully-selected, often thorny, hardy sub-tropical species that clearly won't be given time to establish, or will take up ground space behind hotwire, how great would it be for a piece of mature woodland, still fairly open at ground level, but with a real canopy above the animals, to be used instead?