It remains to be seen how well represented the Rabat Zoo lion founding stock is in zoos in Continental Europe and UK. I seem to remember that at least the Rabat Zoo lines did have some Barbary genes in them. Allthough one would have to check the studbook - if there is any - on how the bloodlines developed there. Recent genetic studies give a mixed response.
Which zoos still have pure Barbary lions?
- Thread starter J.simpkin
- Start date
It remains to be seen how well represented the Rabat Zoo lion founding stock is in zoos in Continental Europe and UK. I seem to remember that at least the Rabat Zoo lines did have some Barbary genes in them. Allthough one would have to check the studbook - if there is any - on how the bloodlines developed there. Recent genetic studies give a mixed response.
I believe nearly all the zoos involved with Barbary Lions have (some)animals that came either directly or indirectly from Rabat.
The 'big issue' is whether the Rabat Lions do have any Barbary genes or not-I believe that the recent DNA testing of five animals indicated they definately didn't.
OK Pertinax I trust you for your word. Any chance of that scientific paper being quoted here as source info?
Although on a prior page I noted it is paywalled, I have found an upload of it on the internet:
Lost populations and preserving genetic diversity in the lion Panthera leo:
Implications for its ex situ conservation - Ross Barnett, Nobuyuki Yamaguchi, Ian Barnes & Alan Cooper
http://www.dur.ac.uk/greger.larson/DEADlab/Publications_files/Barnett_ConsGenBarbary.pdf
Thanks Dave for rolling it out.
This paper was from 2005 and had preliminary results from genetic studies on mtDNA. There are more recent papers including this one from 2010 by in part the same authors:
European Journal of Wildlife Research
February 2010, Volume 56, Issue 1, pp 21-31
Maintaining the genetic health of putative Barbary lions in captivity: an analysis of Moroccan Royal Lions
Simon Black, Nobuyuki Yamaguchi, Adrian Harland, Jim Groombridge
Sadly, you can only view the abstract and the rest is behind the paypal folder.
On lion genetics this site is quite interesting:
http://www.lionalert.org/page/lion_genetics
The haplotype to look for in Barbary lions seems to be H11 and set them apart from the others, like West African lions and Asiatic lions have H9 / H10 individual to them.
This paper was from 2005 and had preliminary results from genetic studies on mtDNA. There are more recent papers including this one from 2010 by in part the same authors:
European Journal of Wildlife Research
February 2010, Volume 56, Issue 1, pp 21-31
Maintaining the genetic health of putative Barbary lions in captivity: an analysis of Moroccan Royal Lions
Simon Black, Nobuyuki Yamaguchi, Adrian Harland, Jim Groombridge
Sadly, you can only view the abstract and the rest is behind the paypal folder.
On lion genetics this site is quite interesting:
http://www.lionalert.org/page/lion_genetics
The haplotype to look for in Barbary lions seems to be H11 and set them apart from the others, like West African lions and Asiatic lions have H9 / H10 individual to them.
You have identified the key statement in those research papers.
I am sure that I have also read in one of them, (from 2009/10) that no Lions tested have been found to possess that particular haplotype, which was identified from museum specimens of known Barbary origin. That included those from Rabat Zoo, which were found to have haplotypes of Lions found south of the Sahara or in Central Africa.
It also appears from the analysis that Barbary, Asian and Central European Lions at one time all had one continuous and connected population range, completely seperate from the Lions in Africa south of the Sahara desert, and so therefore modern Asiatics are the(extinct) Barbaries' nearest match.
I had thought that Madrid zoo's lions came from another, different source, but I believe now that they also came from Rabat originally, possibly from slightly different parentage though.
A female from Madrid was sent to Port Lympne a year or two ago. They are another park who persist with their Barbaries, though they have neutered most of them now. One home-bred male(also born from Rabat stock) is now paired with the Madrid female and I think they intend to breed from that pair, though I am not really sure why.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
Lions really are a species where taxonomists have decisions to make, and zoos as well.
Quite simply, they are expensive animals to keep, and we need to know which taxa to invest in for future captive management. Elsewhere there is a thread talking about the dearth of non-Amur Leopards in zoos today; all the time that zoos rumble along with a population of non-pedigree Lions, (and Tigers!) that situation will persist, becuause the cage space to do otherwise won't be there.
Quite simply, they are expensive animals to keep, and we need to know which taxa to invest in for future captive management. Elsewhere there is a thread talking about the dearth of non-Amur Leopards in zoos today; all the time that zoos rumble along with a population of non-pedigree Lions, (and Tigers!) that situation will persist, becuause the cage space to do otherwise won't be there.
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jbnbsn99
Well-Known Member
I've read most every recent lion genetics/taxonomy paper, and the whole situation is a mess. What it basically looks like, if I remember correctly, was there is a big split along the Great Rift Valley. Lions east and south of the GRV belong to one group, and all other lions belong to another (including Barbary, Asian, and West African).
Here is a post of mine from December.
Here is a post of mine from December.
I would stick with this subspecific listing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbnbsn99
From the San Diego Zoo's website
Panthera l. leo (Linnaeus 1758) North Africa / Barbary Lion / extinct
Panthera l. bleyenberghei (Lonnberg 1914) Angola & Zimbabwe / African Lion
Panthera l. krugeri (Roberts 1929) South Africa / African Lion
Panthera l. melanochaitus (Smith 1858) Cape province / extinct
Panthera l. nubicus (Blainville 1843) Tanzania / East African Lion
Panthera l. senegalensis (Meyer 1826) Senegal - Cameroon / African Lion
Panthera l. massaicus Masai Lion Uganda and Kenya / Masai Lion
Panthera l. persicus (Meyer 1826) Gir Forest, India / Asian Lion
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbnbsn99
From the San Diego Zoo's website
Panthera l. leo (Linnaeus 1758) North Africa / Barbary Lion / extinct
Panthera l. bleyenberghei (Lonnberg 1914) Angola & Zimbabwe / African Lion
Panthera l. krugeri (Roberts 1929) South Africa / African Lion
Panthera l. melanochaitus (Smith 1858) Cape province / extinct
Panthera l. nubicus (Blainville 1843) Tanzania / East African Lion
Panthera l. senegalensis (Meyer 1826) Senegal - Cameroon / African Lion
Panthera l. massaicus Masai Lion Uganda and Kenya / Masai Lion
Panthera l. persicus (Meyer 1826) Gir Forest, India / Asian Lion
alethionaut
Member
Belfast zoo claims Barbary Lions, but I think it's generally accepted that none of the barbary lions in captivity are pure.
Also you might find this interesting:
http://kar.kent.ac.uk/27502/1/Black_et_al_(2009)_Genetic_Health_of_putative_barbary_lions.pdf
Also you might find this interesting:
http://kar.kent.ac.uk/27502/1/Black_et_al_(2009)_Genetic_Health_of_putative_barbary_lions.pdf
Belfast Lions came from Port Lympne, so they have the same degree of purity/impurity as the Port Lympne stock.
Port Lympne now have one homebred male bred from 'Barbary' stock, breeding with a generic sub-saharan female. They also have one older lioness( his mother) living seperately. Another older related female lives alone at Howletts afaik. I think they have probably discontinued focusing on the ancestry anymore.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Really interesting comment !
I do wonder why zoos have been so focused on the "Barbary" lion.
Perhaps a couple of decades ago the focus could be justified by lack of technological advances in genetic analysis but today it seems like both an exercise in futility and a total pretention.
To be honest, with regards to the UK I would love to see all the cage spaces you mention that are allocated to "Barbary lions" and zoomix tigers given over to house Sumatran tiger , Asiatic lion or even better yet the Scottish wildcat.
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Actually, the genetics of zoo-mix lions becomes interesting but for a new reason. Many lions were historically imported from areas where wild lions are extinct or almost extinct today, for example Western and Central Africa. It is possible that zoo lions preserve genetic diversity lost from the wild. It was once suggested that the so-called Barbary lions actually come from the southern edge of Sahara, which would still be interesting, because almost no wild lions survive there now.
It would be interesting to make a study of zoo and wild lions genetic diversity using more detailed genetic methods, and either breed the zoo lions with lost genetic diversity, or replace zoo lions with progeny of wild lions of known origin.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
I agree that the question of the genetic diversity of zoomix lions is an interesting one and essentially the "Barbary" lion did not apparently differ that much genetically from Western and Central African lion (though morphologically that is another question).
That said, I don't think we can ever label the zoomix lions as being of significant "Barbary" stock or individual lions as being "Barbary" because they are clearly not.
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I think it was another zoo 'fad' that developed around the 1990's. Something new that would also provide fresh interest for visitors. Certainly Port Lympne used to make far more of them reputedly being 'Barbary' in the past and they were actively breeding them too- that seems to have finished as the current breeding pair of Lions have not been chosen with respect to continuing the Barbary line. More just 'Lions' now.
The problem is what happens to these Lions- they can't just be moved out and replaced with something more genuinly worthwhile.
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I'm sure that as time goes on, and more of these zoo-mix animals reach the end of their lives, these spaces will be re-used for subspecies-specific animals. This has already happened at Shepreth; after their elderly zoo-mix tigers died they were replaced with two Sumatrans (mother and daughter) from Chessington.