ZSL Whipsnade Zoo whipsnade 2013

Thing is, there's no reason why they should keep 1.2 adult rhino. Is the bull ever in the paddocks? I would far prefer the new stalls used as a day house with free movement and direct connection out to the different paddocks for two, and a corridor up to the old yard and paddock for the third. I think they missed a trick in not making the deer park a rhino-proof extension to the paddocks when they opened this exhibit.

Do you know if they have tried operant conditioning to train the females to enter the pools, or do you think its primarily a physical issue?
 
Pertinax said:
To extend the metal fencing and mulch over the extended area to make more yards would not cost anything like the amount of building the House in the first place! It would be a fairly small scale modification.

While Indian Rhinos in zoos elsewhere in Europe are housed (mostly) nowadays with indoor bathing facilities etc yet Whipsnade still seem to have had continuous problems with their design of this 'state of the art' building to the degree the females and calves are still living in obselete housing from years back. After several years of this it just seems madness to me that they don't make whatever alterations are needed.
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I agree it is fairly minor in comparison, but if the money isn't there then it's expensive! I'm not sure of the logistics of it, would that sort of thing need foundations for the fencing as well as rough landscaping and the new fencing itself?

Interesting, what is the situation with mothers and calves in these zoos? Are they free to access deep water?

johnstoni. said:
Thing is, there's no reason why they should keep 1.2 adult rhino. Is the bull ever in the paddocks? I would far prefer the new stalls used as a day house with free movement and direct connection out to the different paddocks for two, and a corridor up to the old yard and paddock for the third. I think they missed a trick in not making the deer park a rhino-proof extension to the paddocks when they opened this exhibit.

Do you know if they have tried operant conditioning to train the females to enter the pools, or do you think its primarily a physical issue?
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Are you suggesting that the zoo doesn't need a bull? Or dosn't need two adult females? He does go in the paddock, however he has had some foot issues as far as I know and with all this horrible weather there haven't been many days where it's suitable for him to go outside unfortunately, therefore the paddock has been Ajang's pretty much for the whole winter. A whole revamp of that area incorporating some of the drive through would be great. If they could knock down all the rhino and gaur buildings (despite the fact that the new rhino house is so new :p) and create something new for all of them it would be great.

I'm not aware of any training done with them but I'm sure a limited amount hasprobably been tried. I don't know if the females have ever been in the new house to experience the water in there?
 
gentle lemur said:
I don't think it would be a good idea to put Indian rhinos in a drive-through enclosure.

Alan
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Can I enquire as to why? The ones at WMSP are sometimes out in the main drive through and Ive never seen a problem with them, even when the train goes past?
 
CambsVet said:
Can I enquire as to why? The ones at WMSP are sometimes out in the main drive through and Ive never seen a problem with them, even when the train goes past?
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Really? I've never seen them out and about? Not that I'm calling you a liar but I'm genuinely interested and would love to coincide a visit with that! :D
 
CambsVet said:
Can I enquire as to why? The ones at WMSP are sometimes out in the main drive through and Ive never seen a problem with them, even when the train goes past?
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I also find that interesting. From watching Indians compared to whites I'd say they are a bit more highly strung, though they're perfectly happy with people I'm not sure how they'd react to cars (and the deer/camels/yak!).

Are the ones at West Mids breeding? With half (or two thirds if Ajang goes!) of the rhinos with calves at some stage I would've thought that would be a factor. If they aren't allowed together with calves I'm not sure about together with other animals and cars in the drive through...

It'd be interesting to see what would happen though - you can never know until you try it!
 
AdamD601 said:
......I'm not sure how they'd react to cars (and the deer/camels/yak!)......

If they aren't allowed together with calves I'm not sure about together with other animals and cars in the drive through...
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Regarding your comments about how the Indian rhinos would react to other animals:-

I’ve often seen the free-ranging muntjak, Chinese water deer, mara and Bennett’s wallaby enter the Indian rhinoceros paddock at Whipsnade and I’ve never seen any sign of aggression from the rhinos.

At Chester Zoo the Indian rhinos share the enclosure with brow-antlered deer and, on my last visit, the male brow-antlered deer appeared to be the dominant animal; he kept chasing the Indian rhinos away.
 
AdamD601 said:
Some sad news - unfortunately due to an illness, Odin (the previous gaur calf) had to be put to sleep a couple of weeks ago :(
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That's really sad news and explains why I didn't see him on my last visit.

Do you have any further details about his illness?

Here are a couple of photos of him when he was a few months old:-

http://www.zoochat.com/216/gaur-calf-whipsnade-8th-october-2011-a-240181/

http://www.zoochat.com/216/gaur-calf-whipsnade-8th-october-2011-a-240180/
 
I think that the biggest problem with putting the rhino in the drive through would be that they wouldn't be viewable to many visitors without the added cost of the train or car entrance fees. To me it makes no difference, as i get free car entry anyway, but i think in general it would be wrong.
Despite the problems with the new house, with 3 decent paddocks and several yards, Whipsnade still has by far the best facilities for the species in the UK, it's just a matter of how to make better use of those facilities.
 
Tim May said:
I’ve often seen the free-ranging muntjak, Chinese water deer, mara and Bennett’s wallaby enter the Indian rhinoceros paddock at Whipsnade and I’ve never seen any sign of aggression from the rhinos.
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True, though I was thinking more along the lines of them having an issue with large, more threatening animals like the camels and yaks. That's not to say they would, but one may assume that puny little mara are insignificant to a big beastly rhino whereas a whopping great camel may be a problem to them :p

Tim May said:
That's really sad news and explains why I didn't see him on my last visit.

Do you have any further details about his illness?
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Very sad indeed :( Not sure if the cause has actually been confirmed but a horrible, very sudden illness.

pipaluk said:
I think that the biggest problem with putting the rhino in the drive through would be that they wouldn't be viewable to many visitors without the added cost of the train or car entrance fees. To me it makes no difference, as i get free car entry anyway, but i think in general it would be wrong.
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Very good point, I didn't think of that aspect! For one of the most high profile species at the zoo I agree that making people effectively pay more to see them would be a bit cheeky, unless public footpaths were incorporated into the new design to allow for better viewing of the drive through, but I would have thought that would still be not the best viewing compared to what it is now.
 
CambsVet said:
Can I enquire as to why? The ones at WMSP are sometimes out in the main drive through and Ive never seen a problem with them, even when the train goes past?
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I don't think there would be much problem with the rhinos and other livestock, or even with subadult animals as at WMSP; but breeding adults are a different matter. I agree with AdamD601, Indian rhinos are not as placid as white rhinos: courtship can involve some vigorous chasing and I wouldn't want to be in a car that happened to get between a cow and her calf. In addition, the Whipsnade drive-through is unmanned and only guarded by cattle grids, which a rhino might not even notice :eek:

Alan
 
gentle lemur said:
In addition, the Whipsnade drive-through is unmanned and only guarded by cattle grids, which a rhino might not even notice :eek:
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Good point, and saying that the whole perimeter fence surrounding the drive through would have to be made rhino-proof... I'm not sure a chain-link fence and a strand of electric wire would keep a rhino in! :P
 
CambsVet said:
See I'm not a liar ;) :p

http://www.zoochat.com/219/indian-rhino-314949/
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I have never seen a photo of Indian Rhino in a drive-through area before anywhere.:eek: I wonder if West Midlands is a first for that?

Regarding the Whipsnade Indian rhinos. getting away from the possibility of mixing them in the drive through, another way of freeing up more paddock space might be to allow the two females (and calves) to use the same paddock. Basel Zoo has always done that, with their related mother/daughter combinations so that 2 cows and two calves often share the single outside paddock. Maybe they've tried it at Whipsnade and failed, I don't know.
 
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AdamD601 said:
If they aren't allowed together with calves I'm not sure about together with other animals and cars in the drive through...
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I am not sure why the two females and their calves aren't allowed to share one paddock. I have seen that at other Zoos e.g. Basel though the cows are usually related e.g. mother and daughter in that situation. But the two Whipsnade females used to live together fulltime until they started breeding.
 
johnstoni. said:
Thing is, there's no reason why they should keep 1.2 adult rhino. Is the bull ever in the paddocks?

Do you know if they have tried operant conditioning to train the females to enter the pools, or do you think its primarily a physical issue?
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Bull- I have seen him in the paddock nearest the drive through exit, and also in the old paddock adjacent to the Gaur. The problem they have is the location of the paddocks in relation to the indoor housing- to use the old paddock he presumably needs to live in the old house, which maybe isn't possible when the cows are in there with calves. The whole layout is problematic.


Cows- I believe they initially tried to tempt them into the indoor pools with operant training- baiting them with food. Maybe they gave it up but they are never in that house anyway. They certainly use the outdoor wallows, and when they were halfgrown, I remember seeing them bathing in the moat of the Cotton terrace enclosure at ZSL which they were first kept in. However many years(about 10) then elapsed when they had no access to indoor bathing until confronted with the new indoor facility in the new Whipsnade house.
 
I really don't want to be negative, but it doesn't encourage faith in ZSL management when a much-needed new facility for a major species gets so poorly designed.

It really is on a par with the apocryphal issues with the building of the Casson Pavilion, which was allegedly well underway before it was realised that there were no doors leading from the dens to the paddocks...:rolleyes:
 
AdamD601 said:
Interesting, what is the situation with mothers and calves in these zoos? Are they free to access deep water?

I'm not aware of any training done with them but I'm sure a limited amount hasprobably been tried. I don't know if the females have ever been in the new house to experience the water in there?
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I do not know but as a general rule would presume very small calves are kept away from deep bathing pools at least initially, for safety reasons. However in the wild they do enter deep water readily enough but of course here there is no danger from concreted margins they may not be able to climb out of.

It was definately mentioned in the Whipsnade/ZSL news soon after the new house opened, that they were trying to encourage the adult females to enter the indoor bathing pools by scattering lettuce or other food on the surface, so they must have used the house then, though I have never seen them in there. I suspect they moved them to the old house again when they became pregnant.

Afaik the bull 'Jaffna' which was on loan from Basel, was only ever kept in the old house/paddock while he was at Whipsnade. Only the newer 'Hugo' has the use of the new house and he is the one animal there I know that does use the indoor pools.
 
IanRRobinson said:
It really is on a par with the apocryphal issues with the building of the Casson Pavilion, which was allegedly well underway before it was realised that there were no doors leading from the dens to the paddocks...:rolleyes:
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Except this is another forty years on....:rolleyes:
 
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