Wild futures/monkey sanctuary

monkeyarmy said:
I'll have fun thanks spoiling the monkeys or just providing a decent standard of living for them, not sure why that's something to ridicule I don't know but it takes all sorts I suppose
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People keeping them as pets and spoiling you object too, but a "sanctuary" or zoo as I would call it allowing Tom, Dick and Harry in to spoil the monkeys your ok with?

Esp. when you believe only animals that have a chance to released back into the wild should be kept in zoos, so basically saying we should keep only these animals in zoos and keep them as wild as possible to allow for re-introduction is the humane thing to do (in your opinion) yet your going to spoil monkeys which do not have any remote chance of being reintroduced.....

Anyone else understand this logic?

P.s. please don't go away, just maybe ensure your beliefs stand with your actions, most entertaining reading this (apart from reading all my follow Liverpool supporters think Milner signing is a bad deal).
 
Yes I object to people spoiling pet monkeys, when that spoiling leaves them with diabetes, rickets and psychological issues. I didn't initiate the use of spoil this was done by someone objecting to the high staff to monkey ratio. I should have made it clear my idea of 'spoiling' was building lots of enrichment and ensuring a great environment fo them, is this hypocritical of me? Wild futures does not let any tom dick and harry work with the monkeys, it is made clear when you apply to volunteer that there is no direct contact with the primates.

As for your second paragraph you have said the complete opposite to what I have said. I said I understand that if some animals weren't in zoos it would be likely they would go extinct eventually i.e. orangutangs. Where you may have got confused is that I said in relation to wild populations money and effort should be put into those most likely to survive.

I don't mind debate but please make sure you havve your facts straight
 
Bloody hell what did I start?

I honesty thought you was looking for some advice.
I will say that I am totally against primates being kept in parrot cages and fed lollipops or god forbid dressed up and treated like a child. But there are some very very good private keepers out there who keep primates in very good conditions, asking for a blanket ban will not help, the industry needs regulating more and marmosets in parrot cages should be reported to the RSPCA etc but sadly the RSPCA seem more interested in their pay packet rather than the animals the society was originally set up for.

I can almost guarantee that all confiscated "pet" primates in the UK will be marmosets mostly common marmoset. Any larger primate that's confiscated will be from the continent or further afield. Any large primate kept in the UK will be kept very well just due to the fact that the animal itself would cost an arm and a leg and the fact they should be DWAL inspected by local authority and a vet.
 
Wrong all the capuchins at wild futures come from the pet trade a few mention the UK specifically the others are unclear Capuchin Monkeys The Monkey Sanctuary, Cornwall . Monkey World has rescued several squirrel monkeys and capuchins from the UK pet trade and two cotton top tamarins.

It is legal to keep squirrel monkeys, tamarins (although you need an a1 form to prove they are captive bred) and marmosets without license. Capuchins do require dwa license but there is a high non compliance rate and even those who do have dwa does not guarantee a decent standard of care.

There are many very good keepers who keep much rarer species.

I have posted my anti zoo point of view thread in the Europe general section.
 
Thanks for the link, I am surprised at the amount of UK capuchins seized.
Btw Sorry I should have said confiscated recently, as in the past few years. Obviously up until recently there were old capuchins still alive from a time in the 80's-90's where you could get them Quite easily in the pet trade but most of the cruelty cases you hear about at least within the past 5 years tend to be marmoset species.
I'd be interested to know the youngest capuchin seized from the UK currently at the sanctuary?
 
I can't be precise on dates and ages but I know monkey world seized a squirrel monkey in 2011that was living in a room in a caravan and a capuchin was reported by the council official responsible for dwa inspections to monkey world about the same time. But you are right the majority are marmosets and it is getting worse with an increase in breeding by the parrot cage brigade babies can go for £1000 each and marms nearly always twins so that's 2 grand a pregnancy. I believe capuchins sell for £2000~3000 which isn't all that much compared to what some pedergrie dogs go for.
 
Squirrel monkeys will sell for at least £5000 each but on average your looking at £7000 a each. So if a serious keeper wants to start a group then you are looking at at least £10000-14000, which is nothing to sniff at.

As capuchins are DWA they probably are a little cheaper but I can't imagine them going for £2000-3000.

There is a reason the parrot cage numb nuts get marmosets and that's because as you rightly said they are relatively cheap compared to other primates.

Personally if I spend near £15000 on two animals I would most likely be spending a similar amount building the enclosure etc and keeping them alive!
 
Can I ask where you have got the price of squirrel monkeys? The problem is keepers who don't buy multiple monkeys to form groups. Weather you can imagine it or not that is the price for a capuchin unless you have any evidence they sell for more?

Those keepers who do keep primates properly do themselves and their 'hobby' no favours in not speaking out against the parrot cage lot of showing proper husbandry meaning they are open to criticism.
 
monkeyarmy said:
Can I ask where you have got the price of squirrel monkeys? The problem is keepers who don't buy multiple monkeys to form groups. Weather you can imagine it or not that is the price for a capuchin unless you have any evidence they sell for more?

Those keepers who do keep primates properly do themselves and their 'hobby' no favours in not speaking out against the parrot cage lot of showing proper husbandry meaning they are open to criticism.
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I can assure you they do speak out, they also report parrot cage types and bad breeders, I personally know private keepers who have not only taken primates from dodgy keepers but also reported them due to bad breeding ethics.
People buying single squirel monkeys would be in a very small minority, those prices are taken from various places, breeders, dealers etc.
where do you get your prices from? Especially capuchins?

I will see if I can find any actual prices for capuchins (that aren't scammers!).
And get back to you on it :)
 
monkeyarmy said:
I know they sent a patas monkey to monkey world to have company of her own kind so they have in the rehomed but if they would with a woolly due to monkey world breeding woolies I don't know. Again the people to ask are wild futures I'm sure they have thought about it
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That's interesting, and encouraging. There is another sanctuary in the UK that certainly doesn't do this. While mixing species isn't necessarily problematic, the opportunity to at least integrate with others of the same I think is something that should always at least be attempted. However, there is always the possibility that the stress of a further move/stresses resulting from establishing social status in a new grouping can hasten the death of an old monkey. It's a difficult judgement call, but heartening that Wild Futures are not close-minded about the options when faced with this situation.
 
taun said:
People keeping them as pets and spoiling you object too, but a "sanctuary" or zoo as I would call it allowing Tom, Dick and Harry in to spoil the monkeys your ok with?

Esp. when you believe only animals that have a chance to released back into the wild should be kept in zoos, so basically saying we should keep only these animals in zoos and keep them as wild as possible to allow for re-introduction is the humane thing to do (in your opinion) yet your going to spoil monkeys which do not have any remote chance of being reintroduced.....
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I want to say that actually, primates are one of the least useful subjects for the pro/anti zoo debate, because the prevalence of sanctuaries and public awareness of rescue stories is not a result of captivity per se, but of a much distorted use/consumption of the species involved. It is a waste of time debating the merits of monkey sanctuaries in the context of being pro or anti-zoo, when they would likely not exist were it not for the laboratory animal and pet trades. It isn't generally controversial these days to house primates in zoos, and the vast majority are very able to provide stimulating, relatively naturalistic environments for their monkeys.

Conflating captivity within zoos or wildlife parks with the same species kept as pets or in labs really isn't doing anyone any favours.

Monkeyarmy may have waved a few red flags at a couple of bulls, but really supporting an establishment which has never been part of the zoo community, was founded to rehabilitate primates coming in from the pet trade, is not a judgement on the zoo community and it seems a shame to me that it has been taken in that way.

Finally, while there are many private keepers/breeders who manage their primates in conditions at least on a par with some public collections, the problems arise with how much oversight there is when stock move on. Sure, you can provide a factsheet, you can 'vet' prospective buyers, but I've long felt that an accredited network of private keepers should be encouraged in the form of at least a managed breeding program parallell to and compatible with the ESB/EEP systems. You can regularly find for sale critically endagnered species (although I can only think of one or two primates), some uncomming too in captivity (especially reptiles/amphibians) entering into a market with no database, no genetic managment, and no formal cooperation. If this comes from the state, I think it will be an invasive, inferior top-down form of control, so I really hope it develops from private breeders themselves. The days of NAPAK were very promising, but they seem to have disappeared now, and I think a strong network of private keepers who cooperate and manage a national database that provides a sought-after membership and accreditation is the best form of defence against monkeys ending up in parrot cages across the UK. Outlawing primates in private hands sounds good, but you only have to look at the IOW monkey haven to understand how little space there is across the UK's national collections.
 
monkeyarmy said:
It's my business to know and track what primates are being sold and for how much
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But what does that mean ? Are you looking in international classifieds where a primate could cost a few £100's or nationally? I'd honestly be very interested in this data? I you're happy with it id love to see it!
 
stubeanz said:
But what does that mean ? Are you looking in international classifieds where a primate could cost a few £100's or nationally? I'd honestly be very interested in this data? I you're happy with it id love to see it!
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No just within the uk, I would love to rescue 'pet's primates from around the world but it is a political and legal minefield plus incredibly expensive to fly primates or any exotic animal. Plus there are more than enough primates in the UK in need of homes. Tracking the price that primates are being sold for gives an indication of their popularity. Marmosets were going for half the price they are now a few years ago but as they become more popular the price goes up, female marmosets that have carried their babies are very sought after at the moment as every Tom dick and Harry is breeding them. You have to be careful where you do research on prices as at least 80% of adds are fake or scams. I track on Facebook groups, specialist forums and knowing dealers.


You're right communityzoo, any comment on wild futures being anti zoo is pure speculation or assumption as it says nothing about zoos on their website.

Primates are a in a bit of a unique position when kept in zoos as there has been so much research done about their husbandry, social structure and enrichment (no doubt due to our shared genes); I hope this means we've seen the end of lone chimp in a small cage. In fact I have noticed there has been a decrease in zoos that keep chimps.
 
monkeyarmy said:
female marmosets that have carried their babies are very sought after at the moment as every Tom dick and Harry is breeding them.
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You've misunderstood here. The carrying babies that you see in classified ads is not about carrying their own babies but carrying others, usually siblings. Responsible marmoset breeders will usually keep a pair of marmosets who then have babies, when those young grow to adulthood and the pair has a second set of babies all members of the group, including older siblings, will carry babies on their backs to share out the workload.
In order for marmosets to be a functional part of an adult group or part of a breeding pair they must have already carried babies. Those who are rehomed as babies without this experience will not function properly in another group or be able to have babies of their own as they will often reject them or at least be bad parents.
 
Not reread the thread in detail but I remember a comment about their money in far exceeding their running costs and thought this might have some relevance.

Wild Futures - August update
We briefly told you about the Vervet monkey foundation, in the Limpopo Province of South Africa, which rescues and rehabilitates orphaned and injured primates providing permanent sanctuary to those individuals who cannot be released. The grant will help VMF rebuild one of their primary enclosures, which will keep the monkeys safe, provide work and education opportunities for local workers and allow the Foundation to continue with their important work.

In Morocco, Barbary Macaque Awareness and Conservation is planning to continue to expand their programme to raise local awareness about, and promote participation in, Barbary macaque conservation. The funding we provided will be used for a portable educational exhibition that will appear in three Moroccan cities; volunteers will be trained to engage with the public about the plight of wild Barbary macaques, ensuring heightened public awareness about the illegality of removing these monkeys from the wild and keeping them as pets.

Finally, the funding we have given to Neotropical Primate Conservation, will enable them to carry out a health check programme for capuchin monkeys in four separate rescue centres in the San Martin region of North-eastern Peru. The monkeys have been rescued from illegal traffickers, and, happily for some, there is potential for them to be returned to the wild. NPC will work with the rescue centres, the wildlife authorities, and a wildlife vet to ensure the best possible outcome for the capuchins.
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