There are separate issues here. The quote of mine that you took above was not about handraising tiger cubs, it was about the free handling of adult tigers/entering the cages when the adults tigers are still in them as done by Zion Wildlife Gardens, which now tragically (but predictably) has resulted in the death of a person. Please be careful about the usage of other peoples quotes out of their context. Secondly, just to avoid possible misunderstandings, I never did say that handrearing never is succesful or doesn't have any benefits. It certainly does, but what was asked about earlier were the potential healt issues, not the potential benefits (posts 34 and 37). However, I will maintain that it should be avoided if possible. At least until someone provides reference(s) supporting certain claims, as I requested in post 39.
Zion Wildlife Gardens yet another big cat accident at Zion
- Thread starter Chlidonias
- Start date
There are separate issues here. The quote of mine that you took above was not about handraising tiger cubs, it was about the free handling of adult tigers/entering the cages when the adults tigers are still in them as done by Zion Wildlife Gardens, which now tragically (but predictably) has resulted in the death of a person. Please be careful about the usage of other peoples quotes out of their context. Secondly, just to avoid possible misunderstandings, I never did say that handrearing never is succesful or doesn't have any benefits. It certainly does, but what was asked about earlier were the potential healt issues, not the potential benefits (posts 34 and 37). However, I will maintain that it should be avoided if possible. At least until someone provides reference(s) supporting certain claims, as I requested in post 39.
Hand rearing
To be quite honest it is difficult to get a complete record for the debate. Institutions that I have worked for have had a grand total of 132 cubs born over the past thirty years. Of this number only 4 died before the age of one.
By contrast checking with four different zoos in the US and Australia over a shorter course of time I found that out of a total of 37 live births there were 14 deaths from a variety of causes.
I fully realize that most institutions do not hand rear cubs unless absolutely necessary and do not recommend most of them to continue handling after a certain point because of a lack of time and training to work with these animals.
There are though many advantages for the properly raised and trained animals throughout their lives.
This is though obviously off the track on this post about Zion Gardens and their current issues.
To be quite honest it is difficult to get a complete record for the debate. Institutions that I have worked for have had a grand total of 132 cubs born over the past thirty years. Of this number only 4 died before the age of one.
By contrast checking with four different zoos in the US and Australia over a shorter course of time I found that out of a total of 37 live births there were 14 deaths from a variety of causes.
I fully realize that most institutions do not hand rear cubs unless absolutely necessary and do not recommend most of them to continue handling after a certain point because of a lack of time and training to work with these animals.
There are though many advantages for the properly raised and trained animals throughout their lives.
This is though obviously off the track on this post about Zion Gardens and their current issues.
madbushfarm
Well-Known Member
MAF Investigation Declawing at Zion Full Report now on-line to view
I probably should have posted this in the other thread.
I have now uploaded the full MAF Investigation Report made at Zion Wildlife Gardens concerning the declawing of 21 Lions and 9 Tigers.
MAF Report Zion Declawing Investigation Feb 2009
I probably should have posted this in the other thread.
I have now uploaded the full MAF Investigation Report made at Zion Wildlife Gardens concerning the declawing of 21 Lions and 9 Tigers.
MAF Report Zion Declawing Investigation Feb 2009
madbushfarm
Well-Known Member
Exactly. yet it was part of Zion Parks routine which seriously tells me conservation was not on their agenda
madbushfarm
Well-Known Member
MAF Media Statement Temporary Closure of Park
I've blogged the MAF Media statement unedited if anyone is interested. Zion is now temporarily closed
Goings on at the Mad Bush Farm: MAF Biosecurity New Zealand and Department of Labour Statement – Zion Wildlife Gardens
I've blogged the MAF Media statement unedited if anyone is interested. Zion is now temporarily closed
Goings on at the Mad Bush Farm: MAF Biosecurity New Zealand and Department of Labour Statement – Zion Wildlife Gardens
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
I said it on this site in a review after visiting about 2 years ago that this sort of thing was bound to happen... I saw this Dalu guy and had a brief conversation with him when I was up there, its very tragic (and he was a hero in the earlier incident this year) but I believe he knew the risks...
Anyone who knows a bit about zoos and has been to this place could tell you it should have been closed (or not allowed to open)... Further to the report about declawing MAF did an inspection in November 08 in which they were seriously considering closing the park and shooting the cats... Their lack of fortitude has cost a man his life...
Unless the park has had serious changes done in the last two years I do not see how the park can re-open... They didn't have holding area's on the majority of enclosures when I was there and MAF would be negligent if they re-opened with non seperated servicing of the enclosures... I believe it will close and the animals be put down to huge public outcry and vilification of other zoos (because they won't and should read can't, take them) instead of the real dunce Craig, who should have never imported (and bred) so many big cats he couldn't safely look after...
A lot of the ignorance has come from NZ's own papers, the FRONT PAGE of the herald (NZ's largest paper) said there was only 120 white tigers left in the world (one of the most endangered species don't you know) this is inexcusable when a simple wiki search would reveal the truth...
This park has been about exploitation and ego since it opened, I'm afraid about what will happen to the cats but if it closes good riddance...
Anyone who knows a bit about zoos and has been to this place could tell you it should have been closed (or not allowed to open)... Further to the report about declawing MAF did an inspection in November 08 in which they were seriously considering closing the park and shooting the cats... Their lack of fortitude has cost a man his life...
Unless the park has had serious changes done in the last two years I do not see how the park can re-open... They didn't have holding area's on the majority of enclosures when I was there and MAF would be negligent if they re-opened with non seperated servicing of the enclosures... I believe it will close and the animals be put down to huge public outcry and vilification of other zoos (because they won't and should read can't, take them) instead of the real dunce Craig, who should have never imported (and bred) so many big cats he couldn't safely look after...
A lot of the ignorance has come from NZ's own papers, the FRONT PAGE of the herald (NZ's largest paper) said there was only 120 white tigers left in the world (one of the most endangered species don't you know) this is inexcusable when a simple wiki search would reveal the truth...
This park has been about exploitation and ego since it opened, I'm afraid about what will happen to the cats but if it closes good riddance...
madbushfarm
Well-Known Member
Jeremy your opinion is highly valued. I absolutely agree with all your points. It's a shame those who think they know everything can't see the truth that Zion is a travesty. Shut it down.
blackpanther
Well-Known Member
please don't jump on me when you see that i'm from the uk.
I started off pro craig busch, now i'm sitting on the fence, i have read your blog and the maf report mad bush farm which has a lot more substance than the newspaper reports that i have read over the last few days.
the problem is this:
from what i can gather craig hasn't worked at zion for over a year, which most of us are just finding out now, this hasn't been on our news or anything in the uk, personally speaking, i'm concerned about the reports that there is footage of craig abusing his cats, i don't seem to be able to access those they wont play on the website, also anything that is vaguely damaging to him is also not accessable or the page can't be found.
i have done a lot of research over the past few days and have not found anything thats particularly bad about the man save for these forums so if anyone knows where i can get the full facts please feel free to point me in that direction.
i joined this forum after sitting and reading most of the craig busch posts i may have been a craig busch fan but esentially i am more interested in the welfare and safety of his cats, i don't really care if they are mutants or freaks or whatever the point is that they are on this planet and it isn't their fault that they are, i sat and fell in love with them because at the end of the day they are fascinating creatures but i wont support someone who isn't on that same page.
I started off pro craig busch, now i'm sitting on the fence, i have read your blog and the maf report mad bush farm which has a lot more substance than the newspaper reports that i have read over the last few days.
the problem is this:
from what i can gather craig hasn't worked at zion for over a year, which most of us are just finding out now, this hasn't been on our news or anything in the uk, personally speaking, i'm concerned about the reports that there is footage of craig abusing his cats, i don't seem to be able to access those they wont play on the website, also anything that is vaguely damaging to him is also not accessable or the page can't be found.
i have done a lot of research over the past few days and have not found anything thats particularly bad about the man save for these forums so if anyone knows where i can get the full facts please feel free to point me in that direction.
i joined this forum after sitting and reading most of the craig busch posts i may have been a craig busch fan but esentially i am more interested in the welfare and safety of his cats, i don't really care if they are mutants or freaks or whatever the point is that they are on this planet and it isn't their fault that they are, i sat and fell in love with them because at the end of the day they are fascinating creatures but i wont support someone who isn't on that same page.
madbushfarm
Well-Known Member
Hi Black Panther
Having a go at you won't happen. Craig was dismissed from Zion Wildlife Gardens in late 2008 the ERA report for this is below
Craig Busch ERA Aa 415 08
I have to go against what Mr Busch stands for yes he built up the park yes he was famous BUT a man died because of Mr Busch's encouragement of this Hands On Technique that encouraged a total disregard for the natural predatory instincts of the felids at the park. Dangerous and irresponsible. To put a human-like application to these animals is to fail to understand the true purpose of a top level carnivore and that is to hunt prey animals. Humans are easy prey.
Thanks for your comments on the blog posts. The ERA Report is also factual and unbiased recommended reading
Having a go at you won't happen. Craig was dismissed from Zion Wildlife Gardens in late 2008 the ERA report for this is below
Craig Busch ERA Aa 415 08
I have to go against what Mr Busch stands for yes he built up the park yes he was famous BUT a man died because of Mr Busch's encouragement of this Hands On Technique that encouraged a total disregard for the natural predatory instincts of the felids at the park. Dangerous and irresponsible. To put a human-like application to these animals is to fail to understand the true purpose of a top level carnivore and that is to hunt prey animals. Humans are easy prey.
Thanks for your comments on the blog posts. The ERA Report is also factual and unbiased recommended reading
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blackpanther
Well-Known Member
Having a go at you won't happen. Craig was dismissed from Zion Wildlife Gardens in late 2008 the ERA report for this is below
Craig Busch ERA Aa 415 08
that was one of the reports that i came across the other day, i think its quite non commital to be honest, it doesn't detail the grievences that they had against him and it did say that some of it wasn't backed up by evidence.
As for dalu's death, i noted and things may have changed since i saw the third series, that the tiger den where the males are housed enable them to be locked away, and it makes me wonder why dalu was in there at all with abu, i have to admit he was a totally impressive cat.
i can't tell you how confused i am right now trying to sort through all the tiger poop
Panthera Puss
Well-Known Member
I think the point is that training and handling these animals for entertainment purposes is just not appropriate, even if it was safe for the humans involved. To the responsible zoo community it's just a non-starter and goes against every ethos of good modern zoo husbandry. There are always problems in the background when dangerous animals are being trained to do things that are against their nature, although some limited & responsible training regimes can be good for the welfare & enrichment of big cats. And the whole 'conservation' message was of course a sham ('endangered Royal White Tigers', etc) ...
madbushfarm
Well-Known Member
Well said!
Would you please define for me what are, in your opinion, "limited and responsible training regimes".
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
The thing that boils my blood is the fuel that a park of this nature gives the anti-zoo lobby (read nutters)...
Examples:
- Small enclosures
- Lack of enrichment
- Danger to keepers
- Deaths of staff/animals
- Breeding of already inbred cats solely to propagate recessive genes (including things the public don't know about, i.e. the number of deformed white tiger cubs that have to be put down)
- Blame of other zoos for not taking cats when it all goes askew
- Profiteering
- All zoos being painted with the same poor brush
- Ego
- Use of zoological spaces that could be used to house the most pure bred sub-species of big cats of real conservation purposes
- The lack of true education and research purpose
All these things this park is amongst the worst on the scale that I have seen, all things modern, progressive zoos abhor... It will be a shame if they have to put the cats down but they are of little true conservation value and are not leading much of an existence as it is and there is not many other places for them to go... All the blame lies with "the lion man" for irresponsibly opening in the first place...
Examples:
- Small enclosures
- Lack of enrichment
- Danger to keepers
- Deaths of staff/animals
- Breeding of already inbred cats solely to propagate recessive genes (including things the public don't know about, i.e. the number of deformed white tiger cubs that have to be put down)
- Blame of other zoos for not taking cats when it all goes askew
- Profiteering
- All zoos being painted with the same poor brush
- Ego
- Use of zoological spaces that could be used to house the most pure bred sub-species of big cats of real conservation purposes
- The lack of true education and research purpose
All these things this park is amongst the worst on the scale that I have seen, all things modern, progressive zoos abhor... It will be a shame if they have to put the cats down but they are of little true conservation value and are not leading much of an existence as it is and there is not many other places for them to go... All the blame lies with "the lion man" for irresponsibly opening in the first place...
madbushfarm
Well-Known Member
I agree with you. Not all Zoos can be painted with the same tar brush. There are a lot of progressive forward thinking zoos that have contributed greatly to a number of conservation plans. True genetically viable animals where possible are worth preserving however in the case of the inbred *endangered* Royal White tiger - this continual commercial trade in these pretty animals does nothing to enhance the true purpose of conserving and preserving a species. Dr Brendan Moyle in his reply to me when I had emailed him on his paper concerning the Black Market Trade in Tiger Parts in China had a very disturbing thing to say - the future for the tiger in the wild doesn't look at all good and that concerns me.
I noted someone had posted the Scribd link for the MAF Report I had uploaded..they were instantly referred to as a troll by the admin for Mr Busch. Looks like the truth has put a thorn in the side so to speak. Too bad no denying something that is from source.
I noted someone had posted the Scribd link for the MAF Report I had uploaded..they were instantly referred to as a troll by the admin for Mr Busch. Looks like the truth has put a thorn in the side so to speak. Too bad no denying something that is from source.
blackpanther
Well-Known Member
I noted someone had posted the Scribd link for the MAF Report I had uploaded..they were instantly referred to as a troll by the admin for Mr Busch. Looks like the truth has put a thorn in the side so to speak. Too bad no denying something that is from source.
one person actually admitted they had their domestic cat declawed
and now the animal cruelty allegations are surfacing again Animal cruelty allegations made against the Lion Man | NATIONAL News
heartbreaking
madbushfarm
Well-Known Member
one person actually admitted they had their domestic cat declawed
and now the animal cruelty allegations are surfacing again Animal cruelty allegations made against the Lion Man | NATIONAL News
heartbreaking
Yes this is nothing new back on a discussion forum in 2007 similar accusations were made by a former worker from Zion (he claimed to be that is) but there may be truth or there may not be. On the declawings..yes it is all true because the concrete proof is there. I guess we're heading slightly off topic with all of this. And yes I read that comment concerning the admittance that this person in the US had her cats declawed. Very very sad.
blackpanther
Well-Known Member
Yes this is nothing new back on a discussion forum in 2007 similar accusations were made by a former worker from Zion (he claimed to be that is) but there may be truth or there may not be. On the declawings..yes it is all true because the concrete proof is there. I guess we're heading slightly off topic with all of this. And yes I read that comment concerning the admittance that this person in the US had her cats declawed. Very very sad.
i know that it had been said before, and its interesting that it has resurfaced again,
as for the domestic cat declawing, i had two cats,and they totally destroyed the underside of my mattress, i put scratching posts around the house but they decided to use my bed, i didn't have their claws ripped out, i gave them a cuddle, scolded them lovingly and accepted that this is what cats do
Panthera Puss
Well-Known Member
I was thinking of something like Colchester's award-winning work with the Amur Leopard where he's trained to go into an open-ended crate for health check-ups; or conditioning a cat to get used to having eye drops administered, for instance.
Not sure about the whole 'playing with Tigers' thing that some places do or have done, but that's probably a different subject for a different thread!