Zoo Animals Populations that will Expand in the Future

[Nikola Chavkosk]

I do. You consistently make claims about animal knowledge and husbandry. When those claims are proven to be false, incorrect, or harmful, it shows us that instead of actually being knowledgeable in the field, you are at best ignorant and at worst dangerous.

I don't like to be ignorant neither I can be dangerous (how you mean dangerous?), nor want to act like that.
I kindly asked for explanation why 1,000 trees are needed for one koala, I don't see why that would be not knowledgeable.
Many people are percieved on another way, different from what they actually are, that's the painfull truth and can't be avoided.
Plus everyone have different personality/attitude and cultural backround. But OK if you don't like my style you can tell me that you just don't want to communicate with me, or to remind me like with this post, so I can change the way I am writing and try soften my atittude.
In no way I have been rude, disrespectfull or uncultural with any zoochatter. I kindly ask for thing that I don't know/Im interested in, and I am not claiming myslef that I am superior (like in the Dunning-Kruger effect).

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

So let me get this straight..... you come out with a wild assumption about the amount of trees needed despite later admitting you *have* seen the correct figure on the EAZA guidelines for the species; then someone who actually keeps the species tells you that you are wrong and you reply by saying you disagree with him and the EAZA guidelines, on the basis 1000 trees sounds like a lot.

Then, when informed that the person you effectively refused to acknowledge actually *knows* what they are talking about you then have the cheek to ask him if he can support the very figure he already dismissed once.

That about sum it up?

No the EAZA guidelines were not for koalas, just it was mentioned like example 1,000 are needed for a koala.
I want to ask MRJ because I have realised that he is actually running a zoo with koalas, though he said 1,000 trees per koala, I would want to read why so many trees, when one koala consumes about 0.4 kg per day and if we can assume that the mass of leaves on an adult gum tree is huge with plenty of young leaves?

 

[jbnbsn99]

I don't like to be ignorant neither I can be dangerous (how you mean dangerous?), nor want to act like that.

I mean dangerous in an animal welfare sense. As I've pointed out to you before on the site, many things you propose for keeping animals border or cross well into the territory of unethical.

I kindly asked for explanation why 1,000 trees are needed for one koala, I don't see why that would be not knowledgeable.
Many people are percieved on another way, different from what they actually are, that's the painfull truth and can't be avoided.
Plus everyone have different personality/attitude and cultural backround. But OK if you don't like my style you can tell me that you just don't want to communicate with me, or to remind me like with this post, so I can change the way I am writing and try soften my atittude.

There is no bias against cultural background whatsoever.

In no way I have been rude, disrespectfull or uncultural with any zoochatter. I kindly ask for thing that I don't know/Im interested in, and I am not claiming myslef that I am superior (like in the Dunning-Kruger effect).

Actually, you have been rude towards several members, albeit unknowingly perhaps. This includes posting member's names on the forum and getting into arguments.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

As I've pointed out to you before on the site, many things you propose for keeping animals border or cross well into the territory of unethical.

Any example? I don't see nothing that I have write in respect to keeping of animals as unethical, perhaps maybe capture of all Javan rhinos.

Actually, you have been rude towards several members, albeit unknowingly perhaps. This includes posting member's names on the forum and getting into arguments.

I appologise for that.
Isn't arguments part of a disscusion? I don't see them as rude.
I would end with this post regarding this thread because it is not about main focus (started to look like a circus ) of Zoochat anymore.

 

[MRJ]

We keep southern koalas, much larger than qld koalas, and eat up to 1kg of leaf. Koalas are very selective and smell each leaf to select the best to eat. For each kilo of leaf consumed there are several kilos of rejected leaf, stems and branches that are waste.

Older tougher leaves wear their teeth down. Koalas forced to eat old leaf loose their teeth and starve to death prematurely.

In the wild a koala will stay in one full grown tree for only a couple of days before moving on. Trees can be up to 40 metres tall with the best leaf at the top. Koalas are adapted to reach the leaf but how are you going to harvest it?

The answer is a plantation with coppiced trees kept to about head height. However each tree will produce a lot less leaf than a full grown tree (but the amount of leaf we could physically harvest economically would be about the same). Plus you need several species as koalas can change their preferences without notice. Thus 1000 trees.

 

[DDcorvus]

I appologise for that.
Isn't arguments part of a disscusion? I don't see them as rude.
I would end with this post regarding this thread because it is not about main focus (started to look like a circus ) of Zoochat anymore.

The problem is that your arguments are opinions. Opinions that are not enriched or supported by knowledge and/or experience. When people that point that out you just keep pointing out your opinion even when it is complete nonsense. Sometimes it is better to read and listen than to talk. And asking questions is welcomed but I would recommend asking them without the nonsense they are accompanied by till now.

 

[kiang]

The three rhino species in Europe seem to be expanding at a rate not seen, with white rhino having been bred in major numbers for a couple of decades, now it seems both the blacks and the Indian rhino populations are on the way up, with a load more holders and first time breedings (esp Indian) being reported.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

The problem is that your arguments are opinions. Opinions that are not enriched or supported by knowledge and/or experience. When people that point that out you just keep pointing out your opinion even when it is complete nonsense. Sometimes it is better to read and listen than to talk. And asking questions is welcomed but I would recommend asking them without the nonsense they are accompanied by till now.

I have studied whole 6 years (11 semesters) of Veterinary medicine (including nutrition and welfare of exotic animals), and the studies were not useless and I enjoyed them particularly when wild animals/birds were in question. Plus I am often implying on research findings, in presentation of my opinions. I had practice too in a zoo holding among other animals, giraffes, hippos, siamangs and other smaller non-human primates, big cats, raptors, etc. And of course most of my opinions are based on what I have read in the last 8 years from research done at zoos, from official EAZA documents, even from the Zoochat itself, before I became a member (some 3-4 years on occassion), etc.
I can't identify what is nonsense, can you list any example? I'am serious please.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

The three rhino species in Europe seem to be expanding at a rate not seen, with white rhino having been bred in major numbers for a couple of decades, now it seems both the blacks and the Indian rhino populations are on the way up, with a load more holders and first time breedings (esp Indian) being reported.

I have done some investigation (Rhinoceros TAG 2008 and Zootierliste), and find out that numbers in Europe, of black rhinos increased from 79 in 2008 to 84 in 2015, and that of Indian rhinoceros, from 53 in 2008 to 66 in 2015!

 

[DDcorvus]

I have studied whole 6 years (11 semesters) of Veterinary medicine (including nutrition and welfare of exotic animals), and the studies were not useless. Plus I am often implying on research findings, in presentation of my opinions. I had practice too in a zoo holding among other animals, giraffes, hippos, siamangs and other smaller non-human primates, big cats, raptors, etc. And of course most of my opinions are based on what I have read in the last 8 years from research done at zoos, from official EAZA documents, even the Zoochat before I become a member (some 3-4 years on occassion), etc.
I can't identify what is nonsense, can you list any example? I'am serious please.

Studying Veterinary Medicine does not make you a Wildlife and Zoo Vet yet. Especially as many Veterinary studies have too little experience with these species and do focus on production and companion animals. What I know of Veterinary Medicine studies in Macedonia these are not known for Wildlife and Zoo Veterinary Science. And I can tell you that many Vets with many years of experience are ignorant when dealing with Zoo animals. I would encourage you to check EAZWV and consider joining them www.eazwv.org . And even though your enthousiasm is admirable you do seem to pick the wrong conclusions from what you read. The above example on Koalas is one of these, so what your proposal on Javan Rhinos as was some of your ideas on what to do with smuggled animals. Which might be reflected by your age and I think many of us had similar views when we had finished or almost finished our studies, but with experience moderation comes. And if you aspire a zoo career as a Vet or in another role, you being with you full name on Zoochat with these bold statements might not help you. This is sad, but it is also reality.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Ok it is enough.
I did't wrote that study in veterinary medicine would make me a zoo or wildlife vet, but just I have some basic to more advanced knowledge.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

The above example on Koalas is one of these, so what your proposal on Javan Rhinos as was some of your ideas on what to do with smuggled animals.

I can't just without to add on this: Regardless how controversial I am (If at all, depending on how you see the things) and even though I had zoo with koala(s) and with only 30 gum trees (wich OK is highly unlikely, especially if Australian government imposes that receiving institutions must have at least 1,000 planted gum trees), that does not mean that koala(s) will stay without food and will know what excactly to do in such case eventually (eg. either intervent supply of enough gum tree leaves or eventually sending of koalas to near zoo wich holds koalas, like in Duisburg, Dresden, Vienna, Budapest or Antwerpen for example). First of all I am animal lover and would never allow animal to suffer (actually don't like even to crush a beetle with my shoe). Here are also animal rights activists/organisations (and yes they're loud also here (and should be) in this country) and inspections that will not allow animal suffering.
As for the smuggled animals, what would you propose if let say for example, they will be seized in Germany and can't be returned to the wild? Surely you will not propose their humane killing, but instead sending them in a zoo would be a better option for them.
Many things here on the forum, are taken too personaly by some zoochatters.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

-Venezuelan red howler

Ok, we already have a new European holder of Venezuelan red howler, namely the Gaia zoo in the Netherlands with receiving of 1.1 monkeys from Apenheul. The total holder number of this species in continental Europe is 5 (with around 35 animals!), and there are two other holders who are participating, from the French Oversea territories, bringing the total number of holders to 7.

The Tasmanian devil is on expansion way too, with already 4 holders in Europe!

However, the number of koala holders reduced from 12 to 11 (with Budapest zoo no longer keeps koalas - what are the reasons?)

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Ok, we already have a new European holder of Venezuelan red howler, namely the Gaia zoo in the Netherlands with receiving of 1.1 monkeys from Apenheul.

Actually from Cologne zoo, not from Apenheul, my mistake.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

The Javan leopard, already present in 3 zoos in Europe. And 3 cubs born in Berlin (?).

 

[TheEthiopianWolf03]

I found this thread multiple times and I've enjoyed reading what people thought. I was particularly interested in the rising population of the Ethiopian mountian viper and gelada (Since I'm Ethiopian).


I'm about to get a lot of hate for this next statement. I support the export ban of Ethiopian wildlife. I don't want any of Ethiopia's endemic wildife end up like the Sumatran rhinoceros. But it seems that many zoos are doing fine with geladas and mountian vipers. When it comes to the other endemic wildife though, I 100% agree with how my country operates with their wildlife.


I'm kinda confused what you are suggesting Nikola. Can you please explain what it is that you are saying?

 

[animal_expert01]

I'm about to get a lot of hate for this next statement.

Why do you think this?

 

[TheEthiopianWolf03]

Why do you think this?

People are pretty passionate what animals should be in zoos. Especially people who really want a cheaper option to see an Ethiopian wolf instead of traveling to the actual country itself. In the case of zoochat, I fear that the "zoo builders" and people who just dislike export bans won't see what I'm saying. I won't name any names though.

 

[Batto]

People are pretty passionate what animals should be in zoos. Especially people who really want a cheaper option to see an Ethiopian wolf instead of traveling to the actual country itself.

The vast majority of zoo visitors isn't interested in Ethiopian wolves; they're more interested in the ABC animals depicted in the children storyboooks they grow up with or what they see on TV (meerkats...). The times of zoos buying and showcasing rare animals just to please some "species nerds" are, with few exceptions, mostly passé. And it is neither "PC" nor does it make much sense from an animal ethic and conservation point to catch, export and publicly exhibit an endangered species just to entertain some 1st World zoo visitors.
So if you want to see live Ethiopian wolves, you will have to visit them in Ethiopia, with the accompanying positive (support of local tourism) and negative aspects (energy wasted to travel there and back).

 

[lintworm]

I 100% agree with how my country operates with their wildlife.

Basically your country is acting foolishly when it comes to wildlife, if taking a closer look. No exports is an arguable rule, but that does mean that you have to take care of the endemic species within the country and Ethiopia is failing miserably. All national parks see high levels of encroachment of livestock and dogs and no serious efforts are taken to curb that. Hunting permits for mountain nyala and many other species are easily available as well, but conserving habitats is of very low priority...Ethiopian wolf populations in Bale, the main stronghold have dropped again by 50% in recent years because they cannot keep dogs out of the park which are spreading canine distemper... The only place the Ethiopian government seems to care for their wildlife is at Bole airport, where international arrivals are met by nice pictures from all the endemic mammals that still call Ethiopia their home... Ethiopian policies do not seem to have anything to do with common sense and in the case of banning exports more with national pride...