mstickmanp
Well-Known Member
Haven't had a chance to go birding, but today at the LA Zoo I saw two lifers, one of which is not countable.
90. Hutton's Vireo
* Yellow-chevroned Parakeet
ZooChat Big Year 2014
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Haven't had a chance to go birding, but today at the LA Zoo I saw two lifers, one of which is not countable.
90. Hutton's Vireo
* Yellow-chevroned Parakeet
I came across this issue of 'countability' in the books I had for my Florida trip - in there were some species that were Florida Birding Club 'countable' but not ABA 'countable' (or vice versa?).
Is there anyone making these judgements elsewhere, or is it a US-only situation? US birders seem very careful about it, in a way other nationalities don't seem to be.
I don't remember ever coming across this issues anywhere else - except in a casual sense of whether a particular individual is a known or likely escapee - certainly the debate would be to know if were truly wild for its own sake, rather than to rule it in or out of a count. Perhaps it's just more formalised in the States? Or perhaps I've just always been overly casual in my birding!
all from today at the Muang Boran fish ponds outside Bangkok. I am quite pleased I managed to bookend today's additions with two Chlidonias species
171) Whiskered tern Chlidonias hybrida
172) Indian cormorant Phalacrocorax fuscicollis
173) White pigmy goose Nettapus coromandelianus
174) Bronze-winged jacana Metopidius indicus
175) Plain prinia Prinia inornata
176) Asian golden weaver Ploceus hypoxanthus
177) Cinnamon bittern Ixobrychus cinnamomeus
178) White-breasted waterhen Amaurornis phoenicurus
179) Yellow-bellied prinia Prinia flaviventris
180) White-browed crake Porzana cinerea
181) Oriental reed warbler Acrocephalus orientalis
182) Watercock Gallicrex cinerea
183) Yellow bittern Ixobrychus sinensis
184) Marsh sandpiper Tringa stagnatilis
185) Grey-headed lapwing Vanellus cinereus
186) Black-headed munia Lonchura atricapilla
187) Little heron Butorides striata
188) White-winged black tern Chlidonias leucopterus
171) Whiskered tern Chlidonias hybrida
172) Indian cormorant Phalacrocorax fuscicollis
173) White pigmy goose Nettapus coromandelianus
174) Bronze-winged jacana Metopidius indicus
175) Plain prinia Prinia inornata
176) Asian golden weaver Ploceus hypoxanthus
177) Cinnamon bittern Ixobrychus cinnamomeus
178) White-breasted waterhen Amaurornis phoenicurus
179) Yellow-bellied prinia Prinia flaviventris
180) White-browed crake Porzana cinerea
181) Oriental reed warbler Acrocephalus orientalis
182) Watercock Gallicrex cinerea
183) Yellow bittern Ixobrychus sinensis
184) Marsh sandpiper Tringa stagnatilis
185) Grey-headed lapwing Vanellus cinereus
186) Black-headed munia Lonchura atricapilla
187) Little heron Butorides striata
188) White-winged black tern Chlidonias leucopterus
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it is worldwide. In the UK it doesn't come up that often except for people who don't count introduced birds on their lists. However, as an example to the opposite, ring-neck parakeets are tickable in the UK if you are within their established range -- if you see one outside that range it is not tickable because it is probably an escaped pet. Great bustards and cranes are also not really tickable because they haven't established sustaining populations (but if a crane or bustard turned up from the continent under its own power then it is tickable). Sometimes birding gets complicated.....I came across this issue of 'countability' in the books I had for my Florida trip - in there were some species that were Florida Birding Club 'countable' but not ABA 'countable' (or vice versa?).
Is there anyone making these judgements elsewhere, or is it a US-only situation? US birders seem very careful about it, in a way other nationalities don't seem to be.
I don't remember ever coming across this issues anywhere else - except in a casual sense of whether a particular individual is a known or likely escapee - certainly the debate would be to know if were truly wild for its own sake, rather than to rule it in or out of a count. Perhaps it's just more formalised in the States? Or perhaps I've just always been overly casual in my birding!
In the US you have some species which are tickable in one part of the country and not another (due to being or not being established populations) but it is compounded by there being competing birding "authorities" -- both for the country and for individual states, and they don't always agree on status of species. (Same in the UK for that matter).
I came across this issue of 'countability' in the books I had for my Florida trip - in there were some species that were Florida Birding Club 'countable' but not ABA 'countable' (or vice versa?).
Is there anyone making these judgements elsewhere, or is it a US-only situation? US birders seem very careful about it, in a way other nationalities don't seem to be.
I don't remember ever coming across this issues anywhere else - except in a casual sense of whether a particular individual is a known or likely escapee - certainly the debate would be to know if were truly wild for its own sake, rather than to rule it in or out of a count. Perhaps it's just more formalised in the States? Or perhaps I've just always been overly casual in my birding!
Here is what the American Birding Association recording rules says about introduced species:
"an introduced species may be counted only where and when it meets the ABA Checklist’s definition for being an established population. An introduced species observed well away from the accepted geographic area is not counted if it is more likely to be a local escape or release rather than an individual straying from the distant population;"
This is all good and all makes sense and is what I had inferred, but I think the thing I struggle a little with is - why does it matter to us in this thread (or to the majority of amateur birders) so much?
Are the ABA (for example) collating everyone's lists, for some scientific purpose?
Or is it just purely for the sake of list competition, making the metaphorical level playing field?
@Chli - who is the authority setting this in the UK? I'm perplexed as to how this can ever be quantified, and why a reintroduced bustard or crane wouldn't count (particularly given how long lived a crane can be - a bird could have been living and breeding in the wild for decades and still not be 'countable'!).
This is not really as much of a deal as it looks like I'm making of it - just a side of birding I've not come across before. If there's a question-mark over the 'true wildness' of an individual, I've always just seen it noted as such, not left uncounted. I guess I just feel a little rebellious at being told things 'don't count'!
Mammals:
1. Arctic Fox
2. Red Fox
3. Moose
4. American Red Squirrel
5. Northern Collard Lemming
1. Arctic Fox
2. Red Fox
3. Moose
4. American Red Squirrel
5. Northern Collard Lemming
To ad to the complication with Cranes in the UK, there are both indigenous(from natural recolonisation in East Anglia) and reintroduced populations(in Somerset) and there have been occassional movements of birds between the two areas. Identity is usually possible as the 'wild' birds are unringed and the reintroduced ones are, but it makes a bit of a mockery if you had two cranes standing side by side, one from each population-which has happened I believe.
But all Ringnecked Parakeets in the UK originally stem from escaped pets- even the largest colonies in outer London/Surrey. Where do you draw the line between a single 'escape' and the foundation of yet another feral colony in a new area? Same can be said for Mandarin duck really.
Hevden
Well-Known Member
The BOU maintains the british list and only birds listed in catagories A,B and C can be counted and in many cases (especially waterfowl) only certain individuals can be counted. In some cases acceptance takes years and takes into account weather systems, age and sex of the bird, plumage and moult, the possibility of the individual being an escapee and positive identification criteria being met (preferably with photographic evidence)
After a trip to Bristol I managed to add a few more to my year list including my first life tick of the year (would have been two life ticks but a Ross's gull evaded me by flying off 5 minutes before I got there)
100. Red-flanked bluetail
101. Green-winged teal
102. Marsh harrier
103. Lesser redpoll
104. Pintail
105. Cetti's warbler
106. Little gull
I'm just hoping the Yellow-rumped warbler stays in Durham until the weekend.
Thanks. Certainly quite right that records contributing to national/regional lists should be carefully vetted and approved. I just feel it's odd that the lack of Yellow-chevroned Parakeets on the ABA list should stop mstickmanp from being able to count his (presumbly free-living, and a life-tick, no less) Yellow-chevroned Parakeets in this thread. Feels a bit like saying a theatre fan trying to see all of Shakespeare's plays hasn't really seen Hamlet because Polonius got confused and missed a couple of lines out, or some of the scenes were switched around - a sort of unnecessary pedantry (and it's not like me to consider pedantry unnecessary!
).Still, no biggie. On with the listing!
Thanks. Certainly quite right that records contributing to national/regional lists should be carefully vetted and approved. I just feel it's odd that the lack of Yellow-chevroned Parakeets on the ABA list should stop mstickmanp from being able to count his (presumbly free-living, and a life-tick, no less) Yellow-chevroned Parakeets in this thread. Feels a bit like saying a theatre fan trying to see all of Shakespeare's plays hasn't really seen Hamlet because Polonius got confused and missed a couple of lines out, or some of the scenes were switched around - a sort of unnecessary pedantry (and it's not like me to consider pedantry unnecessary!
Still, no biggie. On with the listing!
Well what's to stop people from intentionally releasing birds just to be able to count them?
the distinction is in minimum numbers and breeding establishment. The established range of ringnecks in the UK is well-documented. A bird (or even three or four birds) in, say, Ireland is not a population, it is just a few escaped individuals. Otherwise you could just count any escaped bird from the zoos and private persons (vultures, eagles, flamingoes...you'd have a really weird UK list!). If those few birds actually survive and start breeding, then you have the "minimum numbers" come into play before they can be considered established.
The "rules" in birding aren't really all that complicated, and for your private lists you can actually count anything you want -- it's your list! -- but for a level playing field there have to be rules. Every country has a birding body (or bodies) which generally all follow the same lines with minor differences. My personal rules on listing are pretty simple, namely:
1) it has to be wild
2) it has to be part of an established population. I count introduced, reintroduced and translocated birds if they are established; some people do not.
3) stragglers and vagrants count if they arrive in the country under their own power [this is sort of an odd one, because they are by definition isolated from any other breeding population of their own species, but it is by natural means and not by means of releases or escapes of captive birds]
4) it has to be uncontained (no birds in nets or cages even if they have just been caught) [trickily, they can be counted once released if they were caught for banding, for example, and then released straight after]
5) it has to be seen (I don't do "heard-only" but lots of people do)
for what it's worth I would count yellow-chevroned parakeet. I just had a quick google and there are apparently 400-odd established in the Los Angeles area. There may be specifics I don't know about but it seems good to me. However in terms of "official" they probably need to be established for a minimum time period or something like that.Maguari said:
If it was a yellow-chevroned parakeet in London, I wouldn't count it
mstickmanp
Well-Known Member
Didn't think this would start a conversation as I believe the same issue was raised last year. At the end of the day I will definitely count the parakeet as a lifer, just not "officially" for my year numbers. Although it does get confusing when I look at ebird and it shows a 91.
Well what's to stop people from intentionally releasing birds just to be able to count them?
Well, they'd need to get hold of the bird to start with, and care enough to bother - which would only apply if they were trying to get an official record, not bump up a personal list.
But come to that, what's to stop people just making the whole thing up? (even with specimens that's not impossible - cf. Meinertzhagen!)
As I say, certainly think national lists need checks and balances; just think this thread is operating on trust anyway (no-one's following Chli around checking these massive lists!) so it's not applicable in the same way (but am aware I'm basically Devil's Advocate-ing now though!).
The "rules" in birding aren't really all that complicated, and for your private lists you can actually count anything you want -- it's your list! -- but for a level playing field there have to be rules. Every country has a birding body (or bodies) which generally all follow the same lines with minor differences. My personal rules on listing are pretty simple, namely:
1) it has to be wild
2) it has to be part of an established population. I count introduced, reintroduced and translocated birds if they are established; some people do not.
3) stragglers and vagrants count if they arrive in the country under their own power [this is sort of an odd one, because they are by definition isolated from any other breeding population of their own species, but it is by natural means and not by means of releases or escapes of captive birds]
4) it has to be uncontained (no birds in nets or cages even if they have just been caught) [trickily, they can be counted once released if they were caught for banding, for example, and then released straight after]
5) it has to be seen (I don't do "heard-only" but lots of people do)
for what it's worth I would count yellow-chevroned parakeet. I just had a quick google and there are apparently 400-odd established in the Los Angeles area. There may be specifics I don't know about but it seems good to me. However in terms of "official" they probably need to be established for a minimum time period or something like that.
If it was a yellow-chevroned parakeet in London, I wouldn't count it
This all matches pretty much what I would count. I wouldn't count anything I knew/suspected to be a recent illicit release/escapee, but reintoduced birds would count.
Sorry, wasn't on the thread last year - wasn't aware this was old ground.
mstickmanp
Well-Known Member
So after a slow several weeks of birding I went to San Jacinto Wildlife Area in search of a continuing Black-throated Blue Warbler female that has been seen in the area. These guys are normally found in Northeast US so I had to go try and find her, which I did. I also managed to see 19 other new birds on the day.
91. Gadwall
92. American Wigeon
93. Cinnamon Teal
94. Northern Pintail
95. Eared Grebe
96. Common Gallinule
97. Black-necked Stilt
98. American Avocet
99. Least Sandpiper
100. Long-billed Dowitcher
101. Wilson's Snipe
102. White-throated Swift
103. Loggerhead Shrike
104. Tree Swallow
105. Wrentit
106. Sage Thrasher
107. Black-throated Blue Warbler
108. Vesper Sparrow
109. Great-tailed Grackle
110.Brown-headed Cowbird
Since this is my first year birding, my goal was to get 100 species but I passed that I passed that very easily. My new goal is 200, so hopefully I can pass that.
I went for a drive up to Barren Grounds Nature reserve today.
134. Superb Lyrebird.
135. Crescent Honeyeater
136. Eastern Bristlebird
137. Southern Emu Wren
138. Rufous Whistler
139. Striated Thornbill
140. Leaden Flycatcher
141. White Throated Treecreeper
142. Pilotbird
134. Superb Lyrebird.
135. Crescent Honeyeater
136. Eastern Bristlebird
137. Southern Emu Wren
138. Rufous Whistler
139. Striated Thornbill
140. Leaden Flycatcher
141. White Throated Treecreeper
142. Pilotbird
I did indeed head south, but upping my waterfowl count wasn't all that productive.
86 Redhead
However, another location recently had a couple of female Long-tailed Ducks reported so I headed down south again to try and find them. After much searching, the Long-tailed Ducks failed to show (I feel like I'm missing a lot more often when I twitch this year) but I did have a few other good birds.
87 Red-breasted Merganser
88 Western Grebe
89 Tundra Swan
90 Northern Pintail
91 American Tree Sparrow
And then this afternoon while I was downtown I saw a Peregrine Falcon eating a meal on the ledge of one of the skyscrapers.
92 Peregrine Falcon
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