ZooChat Cup Group D2: Plzen vs San Diego

[Coelacanth18]

That makes it 47-23 to Plzen ... 29 of Plzen's mammals are Miscellaneous mammals

Yes, make of this what you will... but if you excluded rodents from the lists of both zoos, they would have a relatively equal number of mammal species (SDZ 23 to Plzen 22). Not saying this to indicate that rodents shouldn't count; only pointing out that a single order is responsible for Plzen's substantial lead.

I'm extremely inclined to vote for San Diego here, just haven't decided 2-1 or 3-0 yet. On mammal count they are even besides Plzen's extensive Eurasian rodent collection, with San Diego having many great enclosures; Plzen keeps twice as many bird species, but has low breeding success and many lone individuals while San Diego is a leading breeder of Asian birds in North America; and San Diego keeps twice as many herps as Plzen in a highly regarded reptile complex. As usual, Plzen's numbers by themselves are impressive, but it seems to fall behind when measured by other standards.

 

[HOMIN96]

Going through an annual report of Plzen I was struck by relatively low levels of breeding and high numbers of deaths and single/small sex groups, especially so for passerines. Maybe somewhat unsurprising and it was the 2016 yearbook, so things might have changed since.

Not really, when you look up the 2018 report is pretty much the same...My feeling about this is, that passerines are usually sort of a "filler category" to make the aviary look more lively. There are few priority species, but the breeding focus lies elsewhere.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

@Haasje is there a reason you changed your vote from 2-1 Plzen (I think I spotted you here earlier, sorry if I'm mistaken) to 3-0 San Diego? That seems like a really, really big jump to make based on what's been posted!

~Thylo

 

[TZDugong]

I'm going 2-1 San Diego.

Species-wise Prague has more, but San Diego's no slouch, with a large collection and some rarities. Exhibit-wise, judging from what has been said about Prague and what I've seen from San Diego, SDZ has better exhibit quality for Asian species. A good collection in mostly great exhibits gives San Diego the close 2-1 win.

I've also found some pictures of some of San Diego's Asian exhibits.

Gharial Exhibit: This exhibit also has quite a few species of Turtles.

Owens Aviary: Terrific walk-through bird enclosure with (mostly I think) Asian species. Most of the photos show just a small part of the whole enclosure, while the final shows how immense it is.

Orangutan and Siamang Exhibit:

Fishing Cat Exhibit:

Malayan Tiger Exhibit: Split into two enclosures

Malayan Great Argus Pheasant Exhibit:

Asian Elephant Exhibit: I believe they also have African Elephants in this exhibit, which isn't common.

Lion-Tailed Macaque Exhibit:

Babirusa Exhibit:

Silvered Langur Exhibit:

Francois Langur Exhibit:

 

[Luke da Zoo nerd]

I'm going 2-1 San Diego.

Species-wise Prague has more, but San Diego's no slouch, with a large collection and some rarities. Exhibit-wise, judging from what has been said about Prague and what I've seen from San Diego, SDZ has better exhibit quality for Asian species. A good collection in mostly great exhibits gives San Diego the close 2-1 win.

I've also found some pictures of some of San Diego's Asian exhibits.

Gharial Exhibit: This exhibit also has quite a few species of Turtles.

Owens Aviary: Terrific walk-through bird enclosure with (mostly I think) Asian species. Most of the photos show just a small part of the whole enclosure, while the final shows how immense it is.

Orangutan and Siamang Exhibit:

Fishing Cat Exhibit:

Malayan Tiger Exhibit: Split into two enclosures

Malayan Great Argus Pheasant Exhibit:

Asian Elephant Exhibit: I believe they also have African Elephants in this exhibit, which isn't common.

Lion-Tailed Macaque Exhibit:

Babirusa Exhibit:

Silvered Langur Exhibit:

Francois Langur Exhibit:

The asian elephant enclosure is lacking in lushness, but the space for the animals is fantastic.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Yes, make of this what you will... but if you excluded rodents from the lists of both zoos, they would have a relatively equal number of mammal species (SDZ 23 to Plzen 22). Not saying this to indicate that rodents shouldn't count; only pointing out that a single order is responsible for Plzen's substantial lead.

And again I'm fairly certain several of those rodents aren't actually present atm. But I'm also noticing a few which aren't listed which I did note on my visit, in particular the Baluchistan Dwarf Gerbil. Perhaps they have a high turnover of rodents, too? I wouldn't think so, though, given their extensive yet controversial rodent breeding area.

~Thylo

 

[ThylacineAlive]

The asian elephant enclosure is lacking in lushness, but the space for the animals is fantastic.

Not really, as noted the entire complex is about 3 acres but that includes the indoor housing and it's split up between at least three separate yards for a total of four elephants (two African, two Asian).

Personally I'm not much of a fan of the orangutan enclosure either, which doesn't have much climbing opportunities for the orangs themselves as opposed to the Siamang sharing the enclosure. I've also never seen any of the orangs actually off of the ground here...

~Thylo

 

[Luke da Zoo nerd]

Personally I'm not much of a fan of the orangutan enclosure either, which doesn't have much climbing opportunities for the orangs themselves as opposed to the Siamang sharing the enclosure. I've also never seen any of the orangs actually off of the ground here...

It is not as good as some others for sure. It could use some sprucing up.

 

[amur leopard]

Personally I'm not much of a fan of the orangutan enclosure either, which doesn't have much climbing opportunities for the orangs themselves as opposed to the Siamang sharing the enclosure. I've also never seen any of the orangs actually off of the ground here...

Strange, because I had a very quick look at all the SDZ cams a few hours ago and all the orangutans were up on the climbing frame, including the baby.
Probably a coincidence and I got lucky.

 

[Coelacanth18]

Personally I'm not much of a fan of the orangutan enclosure either, which doesn't have much climbing opportunities for the orangs themselves as opposed to the Siamang sharing the enclosure. I've also never seen any of the orangs actually off of the ground here...

Strange, because I had a very quick look at all the SDZ cams a few hours ago and all the orangutans were up on the climbing frame, including the baby.
Probably a coincidence and I got lucky.

I also witnessed the orangutans using their climbing structures when I visited. I wouldn't be surprised if they spend most of their time on the ground, though; many zoo orangutans do. The siamangs may have climbing opportunities that the orangutans don't in order to give them somewhere to escape to in case the apes become aggressive.

Given that it's just one enclosure and not that noteworthy anyway, I wouldn't put too much stock into SDZ's orang exhibit unless Plzen's is significantly better or worse. In any case, the fantastic monkey and gibbon exhibits throughout the rest of Forest Trails are more significant to me here.

 

[HOMIN96]

And again I'm fairly certain several of those rodents aren't actually present atm. But I'm also noticing a few which aren't listed which I did note on my visit, in particular the Baluchistan Dwarf Gerbil. Perhaps they have a high turnover of rodents, too? I wouldn't think so, though, given their extensive yet controversial rodent breeding area.

~Thylo

Regarding the rodents, the turnover isn't that high (bar some exceptions) but the collection lost quite a few species (mostly jirds and gerbils) between summer 2018 and summer 2019

 

[Haasje]

@Haasje is there a reason you changed your vote from 2-1 Plzen (I think I spotted you here earlier, sorry if I'm mistaken) to 3-0 San Diego? That seems like a really, really big jump to make based on what's been posted!

~Thylo

I dont think that i did so, you must have seen it wrong or it was some butt dial. For me it is a clear win for San Diego. Great collection and amazing exhibitions, one of the best i have ever seen. Plzen might have a few more species, but and dont give points for poststamp collections. Dont need 11 different common fazants, 2/3 is more then enough for me.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Been having internet problems tonight, so haven't had a chance to do the full-scale Plzen writeup or photo posts yet, but a few odds and ends cobbled together from a quick gallery search and prior Zoochat Cup posts I've written to keep things ticking over until tomorrow:

Philippine Crocodile exhibit - within the new Philippine-specific annexe of the Tropical Pavillion (which itself primarily displays Philippine species)

General view of annexe

Example of exterior aviaries in Tropical Pavillion

Aviaries for Sulawesi species - these are typical of the aviaries dotted throughout the zoo, and in fact I used these images to represent the aviary design and style in the last Plzen round. I didn't list the species contained within at the time as they are Sulawesi, but as they *do* count for this round I'll root out the relevant information anon.

Mixed Asian Highlands:

Plains of India:

Goral:

Eurasian Brown Bear - these images only show tiny fractions of the exhibit for this species, which is massive and the best exhibit I have seen for Brown Bear *anywhere* at approximately 3 acres in total.

 

[Malawi]

I forgot the Plzen bears...and some of San Diego's exhibits do actually seem a bit less impressive than imagined. Plzen's mammal enclosures are fine, the rhinos have a small lake at their disposal, together with a few good monkey islands (at least the gibbon island - the macaque island is bare), goral, Asian plain and Siberian tiger enclosures are also good, though nothing spectacular. The Plzen aviaries are really on the small side, but the collection is ridiculous and it seems that a share of the San Diego birds are in similar aviaries? The Philippines hall also shall exhibit about 20 local butterfly species, though I did not see more than a few ones on my visit. And I'm a rodent guy!

All together, 2-1 to Plzen.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Plzen might have a few more species, but and dont give points for poststamp collections. Dont need 11 different common fazants, 2/3 is more then enough for me.

I think that Plzen is rather better than you give it credit for by dismissing it as a postage-stamp collection unworthy of any points hopefully my forthcoming image posts (and the ones I've already provided) will help to make this clear.

 

[HOMIN96]

Dont need 11 different common fazants, 2/3 is more then enough for me.

How dare you not appreciate something as beautiful as 11 different, but hardly recognizable pheasant subspecies! /s

hopefully my forthcoming image posts (and the ones I've already provided) will help to make this clear.

Dave's midnight picture spree incoming?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

How dare you not appreciate something as beautiful as 11 different, but hardly recognizable pheasant subspecies! /s

You say that, but I'd say they do look quite different to one another

 

[HOMIN96]

You say that, but I'd say they do look quite different to one another

I know there are differencies, the "barely recognizable" part is sort of a running joke here as the differencies are sometimes very small.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Some further Asian exhibits of note at Plzen:

Snow Leopard - a decent sized exhibit and rather attractively designed; these photographs were taken several years ago, and the base of the exhibit is quite a bit more densely-vegetated now:

North Chinese Leopard - this exhibit is located next to the Snow Leopard exhibit and gives a good impression of what the base of said exhibit now looks like:

Amphibian Ark - a semi-offshow breeding area in the Underground World Pavillion for Kaiser Spotted Newts, along with a few other fish and amphibians:

Amur Tiger - this photograph shows approximately half of the exhibit, from memory:

Siberian Walkthrough Aviary - one of the hidden little gems of the collection, a walkthrough aviary containing a number of birds native to the Siberian taiga forests:

The following species list is, I think, accurate:

Siberian goldfinch Carduelis carduelis frigoris
Siberian Rubythroat Calliope calliope
European siskin Carduelis spinus
European linnet Carduelis cannabina cannabina
Yellowhammer Emberiza citrinella
Hawfinch Coccothraustes coccothraustes coccothraustes
Red crossbill Loxia curvirostra curvirostra
Black-breasted thrush Turdus dissimilis
Mistle thrush Turdus viscivorus
Fieldfare Turdus pilaris
Common starling Sturnus vulgaris vulgaris
Stock pigeon Columba oenas
Wood pigeon Columba palumbus
Eurasian turtle dove Streptopelia turtur turtur
Great spotted woodpecker Dendrocopos major pinetorum
Black grouse Lyrurus tetrix
Siberian thrush Zoothera sibirica

It is worth noting, incidentally, that the Siberian Rubythroat appears to be a species which the collection rather specialises in - contrary to some of the suggestions upthread that the passerine collection is something of an afterthought comprising non-breeding singletons, the collection breeds this species regularly and in large numbers, displaying it in several aviaries throughout the zoo.

Here would be a good point to note the excellent breeding record which the zoo has with Lowland Luzon Scops Owl (Otus megalotis); not only does the zoo hold multiple breeding pairs of the species, producing young on a more-or-less yearly basis, but the vast majority of the captive population within Europe (in both private and public collections) comprises Plzen-bred or owned stock. According to the 2018 annual report, as of the end of that year the zoo had 2,2 individuals onsite, with another 9,7 owned by the collection elsewhere.

On a related note, the collection is the only one outside the Philippines - and possibly now anywhere in the world - to hold all three of Northern Luzon, Southern Luzon and Panay Cloud Rat; the two Luzon taxa breed at the collection on a regular (Northern) or occasional (Southern) basis, whilst the Panay has somewhat faltered in recent years. However, given the fact that the species is possibly extinct in the wild, and the captive population in the Philippines has experienced high losses of late, the fact the collection is continuing to work with the species is worthy of some credit.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

A list of the category relevant species which bred in 2017 and 2018 and the numbers recorded as born, given the fact that @lintworm suggests the 2016 annual inventory indicates little breeding occurring in the collection; for simplicity's sake I will omit any species whose breeding results are given as colonies, with no numbers listed. This mostly comprises about two-dozen rodents species, along with some of the reptiles and passerines.

2017:

Macaca silenus - 0,1,1
Eliomys quercinus - 6,3
Eliomys melanurus - 2,4
Meriones tristrami - 2,2
Hystrix indica hirsutirostris - 0,1,1
Equus hemionus kulan - 0,1
Rhinoceros unicornis - 0,1
Camelus ferus bactrianus - 0,1
Muntiacus reevesi reevesi - 1,1
Antilope cervicapra - 3,0
----
Lophura hatinhensis - 2,2
Lophura leucomelanos hamiltoni - 0,1
Mergus albellus - 0,1,1
Aix galericulata - 0,0,5
Marmaronetta angustirostris - 0,0,7
Aythya affinis - 1,3
Aythya baeri - 2,0,2
Columba livia livia - 1,0,7
Columbia palumbris - 0,0,2
Columba vitiensis griseogularis - 1,0,1
Streptopelia tranquebarica humilis - 6,3
Streptopelia chinensis chinensis - 0,0,2
Streptopelia orientalis - 1,3
Spilopelia senegalensis - 0,0,13
Geopelia maugeus - 0,0,2
Phapitreron leucotis - 2,1
Treron vernans - 1,0,1
Ducula luctuosa - 1,0
Ptilinopus porphyrea - 1,0,2
Ciconia episcopus episcopus - 0,0,2
Threskiornis melanocephalus - 0,1,3
Threskiornis spinicollis - 1,0,1
Nycticorax nycticorax nycticorax - 4,4
Nycticorax caledonicus manillensis - 0,0,2
Ardeola speciosa - 2,3
Bubulcus ibis - 0,0,15
Ardea purpurea manilensis - 1,0
Egretta garzetta - 0,0,9
Pelecanus rufescens - 0,0,2
Recurvirostra avosetta - 1,0,2
Glareola pratincola - 0,0,1
Tyto alba guttata - 4,2,4
Otus megalotis - 1,1,2
Penelopides manillae manillae - 0,1
Trichoglossus forsteni forsteni - 0,0,2
Trichoglossus forsteni mitchellii - 0,0,3
Trichoglossus johnstoniae - 0,0,1
Loriculus galgulus - 0,0,2
Nucifraga caryocatactes - 1,0,1
Sturnus vulgaris - 0,0,3
Sturnus sinensis - 0,0,2
Aplonis panayensis - 0,0,1
Turdus dissimilis - 0,0,1
Turdus hortulorum - 0,0,3
Calliope calliope - 1,1,2
Lonchura oryzivora - 0,0,1
Taeniopygia guttata - 7,1,6
Carpodacus sibiricus sibiricus - 0,0,2
----
Heosemys grandis - 0,0,2
Indotestudo elongata - 0,0,2
Gekko vittatus - 0,0,9
Varanus macreai - 0,0,3
Elaphe climacophora - 0,0,5
Natrix natrix - 0,0,10
Oligodon cyclurus smithi - 0,0,5
Montivipera xanthina - 0,0,9


2018:

Macaca silenus - 0,1
Callosciurus erythraeus - 1,0,1
Hystrix pumila - 1,0
Hystrix indica hirsutirostris - 1,0,3
Phloeomys pallidus - 0,0,2
Phloeomys cumingi - 0,0,1
Prionailurus bengalensis heaneyi - 1,1,4
Camelus ferus bactrianus - 0,1
Muntiacus reevesi reevesi - 3,0
Rusa timorensis - 2,2
Antilope cervicapra - 3,2
----
Pavo cristatus - 1,2,1
Alectoris chukar - 9,3,7
Phasianus colchicus bianchii - 5,3,13
Phasianus colchicus torquatus - 0,1
Phasianus colchicus pallasi - 3,2
Phasianus colchicus karpowi - 0,0,2
Phasianus colchicus zarudnyi - 9,5,8
Phasianus colchicus zerafschanicus - 1,0,1
Lophura hatinhensis - 1,0
Sarkidiornis melanotos melanotos - 0,1
Aix galericulata - 8,4
Aythya baeri - 4,5
Sibirionetta formosa - 0,0,1
Anas supercilosa rogersi - 1,0,1
Columba livia livia - 3,2,2
Streptopelia tranquebarica humilis - 3,1,2
Streptopelia chinensis chinensis - 1,1
Streptopelia chinensis tigrina - 0,1
Streptopelia suratensis - 2,3
Streptopelia orientalis - 1,2
Spilopelia senegalensis - 0,0,8
Gallicolumba tristigmata bimaculata - 0,1,3
Geopelia maugeus - 1,0
Treron vernans - 3,1
Ducula rosacea - 0,1
Ducula luctuosa - 1,0,1
Ptilinopus melanospila - 1,0,2
Nycticorax nycticorax nycticorax - 1,1,15
Nycticorax caledonicus manillensis - 1,1,2
Ardeola speciosa - 3,7
Bubulcus ibis - 0,0,12
Ardea purpurea manilensis - 1,3
Egretta garzetta - 0,0,7
Pelecanus philippensis - 0,0,2
Recurvirostra avosetta - 1,2,3
Tyto alba guttata - 2,4,3
Otus megalotis - 1,1
Penelopides manillae manillae - 2,1
Trichoglossus forsteni forsteni - 0,0,1
Trichoglossus forsteni mitchellii - 0,0,1
Trichoglossus johnstoniae - 3,0
Hypsipetes leucocephalus - 1,0,1
Garrulax bicolor - 0,1
Sturnus roseus - 1,1
Leucopsar rothschildi - 0,1
Scissirostrum dubium - 0,1
Geokichla dohertyi - 0,0,2
Turdus dissimilis - 2,0,2
Copsychus saularis - 0,1,1
Calliope calliope - 4,2,7
Phoenicurus phoenicurus phoenicurus - 0,0,4
Phoenicurus erythrogaster - 0,0,1
Lonchura punctulata punctulata - 0,0,5
Taeniopygia guttata - 13,8
Linaria cannabina cannabina - 0,0,9
Carduelis carduelis major - 0,0,3
Emberiza citrinella - 0,0,2
----
Indotestudo elongata - 0,0,4
Gekko vittatus - 0,0,14