Zoochat (Tea)Cup 2025

A pair of matches which were both a bit quieter than I had hoped-for, although discussion and participation did pick up towards the end:

FINALS LEAGUE - Chester vs Tierpark Berlin - BIRDS

Chester - 63/120 points - 52.500%
Tierpark Berlin- 57/120 points - 47.500%

PRESTIGE LEAGUE - Paris vs Stuttgart - ECTOTHERMS

Paris - 27/95 points - 28.421%
Stuttgart - 68/95 points - 71.579%

Lets see what you all make of the next pair of matches :)

European (Tea)Cup - FINALS LEAGUE - Burgers vs Wroclaw

European (Tea)Cup - PRESTIGE LEAGUE - Vienna vs Antwerp & Planckendael

You have three days to discuss, debate and decide!
 
Again, a pair of rather quiet matches:

FINALS LEAGUE - Burgers vs Wroclaw - MOUNTAINS AND POLES

Burgers - 10/70 points - 14.286%
Wroclaw - 60/70 points - 85.714%

PRESTIGE LEAGUE - Vienna vs Antwerp & Planckendael - ASIA

Vienna - 33/75 points - 44.000%
Antwerp and Planckendael - 42/75 points - 56.000%

I hope the next pair of matches are livelier!

European (Tea)Cup - FINALS LEAGUE - Zoo Berlin vs Prague

European (Tea)Cup - PRESTIGE LEAGUE - Paris Zoo and Menagerie vs Leipzig

We shall reconvene here in three days :)
 
A minor boost in activity, although still less active than I would have hoped:

FINALS LEAGUE - Chester vs Wroclaw - CARNIVORES

Chester - 57/95 points - 60.000%
Wroclaw - 38/95 points - 40.000%

PRESTIGE LEAGUE - Beauval vs Leipzig - MISCELLANEOUS MAMMALS

Beauval - 41/95 points - 43.158%
Leipzig - 54/95 points - 56.842%

One more pair of matches to go until the main body of the Cup comes to a conclusion....

European (Tea)Cup - FINALS LEAGUE - Burgers vs Tierpark Berlin

European (Tea)Cup - PRESTIGE LEAGUE - Paris Zoo and Menagerie vs Antwerp and Planckendael

Even if these matches *are* merely playing for rankings, I hope they provoke active and vibrant discussions, and that everyone enjoys them :)
 
So, the final two matches - which did indeed have an impact on final rankings, as I suspected they might, as they determined the silver and bronze place within the Finals, and the victor of the Prestige League (and hence the overall 7th place contender).

FINALS LEAGUE - Burgers vs Tierpark Berlin - HOOFSTOCK

Burgers - 18/90 points - 20.000%
Tierpark Berlin - 72/90 points - 80.000%

PRESTIGE LEAGUE - Paris vs Antwerp and Planckendael - LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN

Paris - 40/75 points - 53.333%
Antwerp and Planckendael - 35/75 points - 46.667%

A full summary will follow tomorrow, along with details of the final "bonus" set of matches I mentioned here....

TeaLovingDave said:
After the official winner of the Cup has been crowned, there will be an additional round of matches adapted from my original and more in-depth plan for the Cup which was scrapped due to the decrease in participation and my own physical and mental spoons... but I'll reveal more about that later
Click to expand...

....but for now, it is safe to say that Prague is the official victor of the 2025 Zoochat Cup - and moreover attained this position with an entirely unbroken string of victories!
 
TeaLovingDave said:
So, the final two matches - which did indeed have an impact on final rankings, as I suspected they might, as they determined the silver and bronze place within the Finals, and the victor of the Prestige League (and hence the overall 7th place contender).

FINALS LEAGUE - Burgers vs Tierpark Berlin - HOOFSTOCK

Burgers - 18/90 points - 20.000%
Tierpark Berlin - 72/90 points - 80.000%

PRESTIGE LEAGUE - Paris vs Antwerp and Planckendael - LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN

Paris - 40/75 points - 53.333%
Antwerp and Planckendael - 35/75 points - 46.667%

A full summary will follow tomorrow, along with details of the final "bonus" set of matches I mentioned here....



....but for now, it is safe to say that Prague is the official victor of the 2025 Zoochat Cup - and moreover attained this position with an entirely unbroken string of victories!
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Congratulations to Prague ! They significantly developed for the past few years and undoubtedly deserve this recognition ! Looking forward to the next project there and to the arrival of the Wild Bactrian :)
 
For all the categories, here's who ended up winning them within the Top 6

Hoofstock: Prague (R1), T-Berlin (F)

Carnivores: Prague (R1), Z-Berlin (R1+2), T-Berlin (R2), Chester (F)

Primates: Prague (R1), T-Berlin (R1)

Miscellaneous Mammals: Chester (R1), Wroclaw (R1), Burgers (R1), Prague (F)

Birds: Z-Berlin (R1), Burgers (R2), Prague (R2), Chester (F)

Ectotherms: Chester (R1), Z-Berlin (R1), T-Berlin (R1), Wroclaw (R2)

Africa: Wroclaw (R1), Z-Berlin (R1), Chester (R2), Prague (R2)

Asia: T-Berlin (R1), Chester (R2)

South America/Caribbean: Chester (R1), Prague (R1), Burgers (R1), T-Berlin (F)

Islands/Australia: Prague (R1) Burgers (R1), Chester (R2), Z-Berlin (F)

Grasslands & Deserts: Burgers (R2), Prague (F)

Temperate Forests: Wroclaw (R1), T-Berlin (R1), Prague (F)

Tropical Forests: Chester (R1), Burgers (R1), Z-Berlin (R2), T-Berlin (R2)

Mountains & Poles: T-Berlin (R1), Prague (R2), Wroclaw (F)

Water: Wroclaw (R1)

What this tells me is two things...

1. Z-Berlin is the only zoo in the top six to win repeat categories.
2. Water really didn't want ANY association with the top six, only Wroclaw getting it. Burgers REALLY got screwed there.
 
twilighter said:
Congratulations to Prague ! They significantly developed for the past few years and undoubtedly deserve this recognition ! Looking forward to the next project there and to the arrival of the Wild Bactrian :)
Click to expand...

I honestly didn't expect Prague to do anywhere near as well as it did - I thought it stood a chance of being the victor, but suspected it would be a close-run thing and that it would lose several matches along the way, with collections such as Chester, Zoo Berlin, Beauval and Cologne all providing strong competition. I didn't expect Tierpark Berlin would do quite as well as it did, either!

It is worth recalling that in the last major ZooChat Cup, Prague didn't even make it beyond the semi-finals!

CrashMegaraptor said:
1. Z-Berlin is the only zoo in the top six to win repeat categories.
Click to expand...

Not that I particularly wanted *any* repeat categories - the repetition of carnivores in the second round was frustrating but necessary, as this was the only way I could get the logic-diagram determining the various random-selection pools to work.

The repetition of carnivores another time for Vienna in the Prestige matches was simply the result of human error when drawing up the relevant logic-diagrams, however :D I'm fairly sure it could have been avoided.

CrashMegaraptor said:
2. Water really didn't want ANY association with the top six, only Wroclaw getting it. Burgers REALLY got screwed there.
Click to expand...

You say that, but had the random selection gone the other direction for that final match (with Hoofstock ending up the skipped category and Water taking its place) you'd have been saying the same thing as it would have resulted in only Prague winning a Hoofstock match :p

That said, I agree that the final overall results (coming shortly) would have been a lot closer to the true state of affairs had a Tierpark vs Burgers match taken place with "Water" as the category, as it would have almost certainly given the latter collection a big percentage boost and an additional match win, and counteracted the unlucky streak it experienced in recent weeks. Although the final results are pretty solid, based as they are on a large sample size of scores and information, there are definitely several points where they present a slightly misleading picture as a result of collections drawing weak categories against contenders unusually strong in the same categories.
 
So, the official final rankings are as follows - recalling that those collections in the Prestige League were unable to overtake those collections in the Finals League no matter the overall match-win score:

  1. Prague 11/11
  2. Tierpark Berlin 9/11
  3. Chester 9/11
  4. Zoo Berlin 7/11
  5. Wroclaw 6/11
  6. Burgers 6/11
  7. Beauval 7/11
  8. Antwerp and Planckendael 6/11
  9. Stuttgart 6/11
  10. Vienna 5/11
  11. Paris 5/11
  12. Leipzig 5/11

As with previous rounds, placement is determined firstly by number of match wins, and then secondarily by overall match score where multiple collections are tied for wins. It is worth pointing out that even the final two matches were fairly pivotal in determining the placement of collections - had the Tierpark vs Burgers match gone in the other direction, Chester would have secured second place and Burgers would have secured fifth place, and similarly had the Paris vs Antwerp and Planckendael match gone in the other direction, the placement of Beauval and the Belgian pair would have been swapped and the Paris duo would have come in last place!

However, as I have previously noted, one of the reasons why I decided to switch the progression mechanic to take *all* previous matches into consideration was to create a de-facto list of the top 12 European zoological collections and/or organisations; for these purposes, it would be much more accurate and fair to present the rankings as fully-blended without differentiation between the Finals and Prestige League:

  1. Prague 11/11
  2. Tierpark Berlin 9/11
  3. Chester 9/11
  4. Zoo Berlin 7/11
  5. Beauval 7/11
  6. Wroclaw 6/11
  7. Antwerp and Planckendael 6/11
  8. Stuttgart 6/11
  9. Burgers 6/11
  10. Vienna 5/11
  11. Paris 5/11
  12. Leipzig 5/11
The version of the above rankings sorted by overall match score, rather than the number of match wins, displays some interesting differences - largely due to the unbalancing effect caused by as few as two or three matches where a collection unusually weak in a given category was opposed by a collection unusually strong in said category:

  1. Prague 68.9220%
  2. Tierpark Berlin 64.7237%
  3. Wroclaw 56.7498%
  4. Chester 55.8445%
  5. Zoo Berlin 54.4441%
  6. Antwerp and Planckendael 51.4630%
  7. Beauval 51.2396%
  8. Stuttgart 51.1888%
  9. Vienna 50.2839%
  10. Paris 48.8330%
  11. Leipzig 45.9419%
  12. Burgers 44.3927%
The impact of these factors can be most clearly seen in the placement of Wroclaw - which although less consistent than Chester overall was the beneficiary of a larger number of unusually high-scoring matches - and the placement of Burgers, which after a very strong start endured several poor-scoring matches.

As such I think taking both the percentage-based and win-based blended rankings is necessary to obtain a picture of the top zoological collections/organisations in Europe - although even then, the impact of random chance means that these rankings are nowhere near perfect. For instance, I suspect that were the Cup to be re-run from scratch, it is highly likely that the Belgian pair and the Parisian pair would fail to progress anywhere near as far as they did, and that collections such as Zurich or Cologne could have gone a lot further - possibly even entering the top 12!

Further comments and opinions anon.
 
Firstly, I think it might be interesting to see the way that the top 12 rankings (based on pure match wins, and on percentage) shifted back and forth over the course of the Cup!

After the first round, match rankings were as follows:

  1. Prague 5/5
  2. Tierpark Berlin 5/5
  3. Wroclaw 4/5
  4. Zoo Berlin 4/5
  5. Burgers 4/5
  6. Chester 4/5
  7. Vienna 4/5
  8. Stuttgart 4/5
  9. Antwerp 3/5
  10. Leipzig 3/5
  11. Paris 3/5
  12. Beauval 3/5

...with match percentages as follows:

  1. Prague 72.2370%
  2. Tierpark Berlin 69.4470%
  3. Wroclaw 59.6364%
  4. Zoo Berlin 58.7704%
  5. Burgers 57.1860%
  6. Chester 56.6328%
  7. Antwerp 56.5696%
  8. Vienna 55.9326%
  9. Stuttgart 53.7330%
  10. Leipzig 53.2482%
  11. Paris 52.2426%
  12. Beauval 51.2218%

The second round shifted things rather a lot, especially close to the top:

  1. Prague 8/8
  2. Tierpark Berlin 7/8
  3. Chester 7/8
  4. Zoo Berlin 6/8
  5. Burgers 6/8
  6. Wroclaw 5/8
  7. Antwerp & Planckendael 5/8
  8. Stuttgart 5/8
  9. Beauval 5/8
  10. Vienna 4/8
  11. Paris 3/8
  12. Leipzig 3/8

...with percentages as follows:

  1. Prague 69.3576%
  2. Tierpark Berlin 66.7475%
  3. Chester 57.9868%
  4. Wroclaw 56.8168%
  5. Zoo Berlin 56.6702%
  6. Burgers 54.4013%
  7. Antwerp & Planckendael 52.5870%
  8. Vienna 51.2743%
  9. Stuttgart 51.1993%
  10. Paris 50.0923%
  11. Beauval 49.5673%
  12. Leipzig 43.8358%

And as previously noted, the final round locked things in as follows:

  1. Prague 11/11
  2. Tierpark Berlin 9/11
  3. Chester 9/11
  4. Zoo Berlin 7/11
  5. Beauval 7/11
  6. Wroclaw 6/11
  7. Antwerp and Planckendael 6/11
  8. Stuttgart 6/11
  9. Burgers 6/11
  10. Vienna 5/11
  11. Paris 5/11
  12. Leipzig 5/11

..with the final percentage rankings being:

  1. Prague 68.9220%
  2. Tierpark Berlin 64.7237%
  3. Wroclaw 56.7498%
  4. Chester 55.8445%
  5. Zoo Berlin 54.4441%
  6. Antwerp and Planckendael 51.4630%
  7. Beauval 51.2396%
  8. Stuttgart 51.1888%
  9. Vienna 50.2839%
  10. Paris 48.8330%
  11. Leipzig 45.9419%
  12. Burgers 44.3927%

When looked at it this way, the most exciting pair of contenders is most certainly Beauval and Burgers; the former came within a hair of dropping out of the Cup entirely in the first round on several occasions, but steadily climbed the rankings as the Cup progressed, whilst the latter started in a very strong position - fighting it out for third place - but ultimately dropped down into the lower regions of the rankings after several unlucky matches.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
You say that, but had the random selection gone the other direction for that final match (with Hoofstock ending up the skipped category and Water taking its place) you'd have been saying the same thing as it would have resulted in only Prague winning a Hoofstock match :p
Click to expand...

Who said I was talking about the final match? Had it been Water instead of, say, Mountains & Poles which had already had a few contenders in the Top Six, then I wouldn't have been saying this to either Hoofstock OR Water, would I? ;)
 
It was fairly clear you were talking about the final match given your prior observation:

CrashMegaraptor said:
So that means the final category in the, well, Finals league is either going to be Ungulates or Water.
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.....and your direct reference to Burgers :p bearing in mind that the Burgers vs Wroclaw match was barred from involving Water for previously-discussed reasons.

So don't bother trying to be retrospectively clever :D;)
 
TeaLovingDave said:
It was fairly clear you were talking about the final match given your prior observation:



.....and your direct reference to Burgers :p bearing in mind that the Burgers vs Wroclaw match was barred from involving Water for previously-discussed reasons.

So don't bother trying to be retrospectively clever :D;)
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No, that's clearly not what I meant. I meant in GENERAL. I knew Ungulates was already lacking in representation, but I didn't realise until after the fact that Water only had one win from a top six finisher. So, in hindsight, it would have been nice if BOTH had had a little more top six rep. Also, the Burgers thing was a comment in general, nothing to do with the final round.

I would appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth, thank you.
 
CrashMegaraptor said:
So, in hindsight, it would have been nice if BOTH had had a little more top six rep.
Click to expand...

You might like the additional batch of matches I'm going to be rolling out, then :D which should be later tonight.

In the meantime, does anyone else have any feedback or thoughts on the final result?
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Although the final results are pretty solid, based as they are on a large sample size of scores and information, there are definitely several points where they present a slightly misleading picture as a result of collections drawing weak categories against contenders unusually strong in the same categories.
Click to expand...

A pretty solid summary, where i can't add much.

I have already wrote it somewhere, that i'm not sure how much impact to Pragues total victory were by the fraction who said from the beginning, that Prague is probably unbeatable. Therefore it felt always safe to vote for Prague and it would be interesting if this (maybe self fulfilling prophecy) had an impact.

I'm also kind of surprised, that Leipzig ist only on 12th position as it has imo a better balanced collection than Vienna or the two from Paris, but it also had some unlucky matches.
 
remar said:
I have already wrote it somewhere, that i'm not sure how much impact to Pragues total victory were by the fraction who said from the beginning, that Prague is probably unbeatable. Therefore it felt always safe to vote for Prague and it would be interesting if this (maybe self fulfilling prophecy) had an impact.
Click to expand...

I think you might well be onto something there - certainly I didn't expect it to do *quite* as well as it did, as I already mentioned upthread, and think that "luck of the draw" with categories doesn't entirely explain matters. I think that the gradual drop-off in participation, alongside the fact that many of the individuals who were very active in prior iterations of the Cup - and whose contributions could have helped to drive discussion, promote the strengths of underdog collections, and encourage closer results overall - are either no longer present on the forum or have significantly reduced their presence, has a massive role to play in the way things transpired.

Unfortunately, the decrease in overall interest and enthusiasm from the wider forum community has played a major role in my decision to drop my original plans for where the Cup would progress from here, for the time being at least - there isn't much point in investing another six months or so into an enterprise reaping constantly-diminishing (and increasingly unbalanced) results

Which provides a good point to segue into the concept for the additional matches I have alluded to several times now; originally my intention for the Cup beyond this point was to start from scratch with 24 non-European collections, gradually whittling the field down by the same process we have followed thus far, until we were left with a single victor - this non-European champion would then face off against the European champion in a dedicated set of matches to determine the overall champion.

Although I lack the mental energy and enthusiasm for the full version of this original concept (although I *would* quite like to return to it in the fullness of time, if there is sufficient interest), I think it would be fun to conclude this iteration of the Zoochat Cup by running an amended version of the originally-planned "champion of champions" matches, based around two of the results which most surprised me:

  • I fully expected Tierpark Berlin to do significantly worse than Zoo Berlin, as I feel it is a less well-rounded collection than its older sibling and has a greater number of weak points - even if it *is* possibly my favourite zoo in the world based on pure sentiment.
  • I didn't expect Chester to lose quite as badly against Prague as it did in their head-to-head match, or indeed for the overall final percentage gap between the collections to have been as wide as it was, and instead thought that both points would be a toss-up; it is worth bearing in mind that Prague, as I previously discussed, actually failed to progress beyond the second round of the last Cup, and that it was Chester (the ultimate victor of that Cup) which caused its downfall!
In both cases, I would be VERY interested to see how the collections in question compare against one another when viewed in a comprehensive and rigorous fashion - which makes them ideal candidates for testing out my intended "champion of champions" matches, especially when one considers that all four are collections which have tended to elicit high participation due to how "well known" they are on the forum.

So this is how things are going to go:

  • Tierpark Berlin and Zoo Berlin will face off against one another in each category (barring Latin America and the Caribbean, for which the existing results will be carried over), for a total of 14 matches.
  • Chester and Prague will face off against one another in each category (barring Grasslands and Deserts, for which the existing results will be carried over), for a total of 14 matches.
By the end of these matches, we will have a) tested out a possible mechanic for a future Cup b) looked at how these collections compare on a completely level playing field and most importantly c) hopefully concluded *this* iteration of the Cup in a more exciting and engaging fashion that would otherwise have been the case.

I'll drop the first matches tomorrow - until then, I'd be interested to hear what people think!
 
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