ZooChat v4 suggestions

[Simon Hampel]

There was a major new version of the forum software released just before Christmas. It has been 3 years in development and I've spent a lot of time over the past 12 months working with the developers during their beta test phase to help get the software to where we need it to be.

The new platform is a complete rewrite (as in, they pretty much threw out all the existing code and started from scratch!) and all customisations I've made for ZooChat will need to be completely rebuilt to work on the new version - no direct upgrades possible! So until now it wasn't really worth doing further customisations to the site because I'd have to build them again before I could upgrade to the new version.

But now that the new software platform is available, it is a good time to look at building new functionality (and fix some existing functionality!) for the next version of ZooChat.

I'd welcome any suggestions for features or functionality you'd like to see on this site.

For reference, here is a long thread about the announcement of the current version of ZooChat (v3) being launched: Welcome to the new ZooChat

... and here is a thread where I show the previous versions: Happy Birthday ZooChat

Some new features that are coming and some additional functionality I'm already looking at building:

Media Gallery

Most importantly - we do have a "new media comments" search available - it tracks which images you've "read" and will show you only new or updated media.



For new functionality: we can now do funky things like include an "album" of photos within a photo category. I haven't had a chance to play with this yet, so I'm not sure what the limitations might be - but I'm hoping we will be able to do things like allow users to upload a group of photos from a single visit to a zoo gallery into their own album, which will help with managing the clutter. Then again, we may just end up with more/different clutter - some experimentation required there.

The upload experience should be a lot smoother in the new version.

There is a new "embed album" bbcode which you can use to show a collection of photos in a thread (you don't get to choose the specific photos - it just shows all photos from that gallery):

We can also add notes to images in the gallery, which might be useful for noting detail in photos:

 

[Simon Hampel]

Resources

We haven't made great use of the Resource section yet - it's a good way of collecting reference information together in a spot that won't get lost amongst the discussion threads. I'm thinking zoo reviews, trip reports and so on. Will need to experiment here.

It also has built in rating functionality, so it could be ideal for things like rating books, seminars and other resources.

Chatroom

The current chatroom has been basically dead for the past year or so since I moved away from using IRC and haven't had time to fully integrate with Slack like I was originally planning.

I'm not happy with the integration capabilities of Slack anyway - it is intended for business use and doesn't give you good moderation facilities for communities like us. So I've been evaluating other platforms we might be able to use instead.

Right now I'm leaning towards using Discord for group chat - it's intended for gaming communities, but has a heap of functionality for moderating live chat sessions and has good integration functionality, so I think it may do what we need.

Stats

I'd like to be able to automate a lot of the stats I generate so you can view them at any time.

Memberships

The existing forum software only supports PayPal for membership upgrade payments, but the new software is fully extensible and allows you to integrate other payment platforms, so I'll be able to offer credit card based monthly/annual subscriptions.


-------

Please post other suggestions for features or functionality you'd like to see on the site.

 

[Simon Hampel]

Wiki

This isn't functionality that's coming in the upgrade (requires additional software) - but I'll include it here for my reference - it is something I want to look at adding after we've upgraded.

Relevant threads:

• Open - ZooChat Wiki?
  
• New - Species Lists

 

[sooty mangabey]

Thank you for your continued efforts to keep ZooChat working as well as is possible, Simon - it s appreciated.

I think the key requirement is one of which you are already aware, and which you mention as being on the agenda - the ability to view comments on pictures more easily once more. This will, I think, be a massively significant improvement.

On a smaller level, I miss the ability to go to a list of all members, and see basic information about them - the last time they posted, when they first posted and so on. As I understand it, I can only do that for people who have actually posted on a particular thread, or I can access a list fo the most prolific posters, at the moment.

In addition the ability to link directly to a zoo's gallery from a thread about that zoo was, I think, previously available - and would be very handy!

More controversially, two of the (often related) occasional issues on ZooChat are those of people-posting-27-blurry-and-largely-similar-photos-of-the-same-tiger, and newly-signed-up-members-posting-234-posts-and-then-disappearing. I wonder if it might be a Good Thing to have some sort of limit for those who had not yet earned their spurs, so that only a certain number of posts can be written each day, only a certain number of photos. Or maybe this is something that is just best left to the invisible hand to sort out....

 

[Fallax]

largely-similar-photos-of-the-same-tiger

Hmmmm, I wonder who?

 

[sooty mangabey]

Hmmmm, I wonder who?

Oh, no-one in particular - it's more a general observation. I applaud the enthusiasm of those posters who do carpet bomb the site with pictures in this way, but feel that if they were able to take a step back they might see the that their contributions may, possibly, detract rather than add to the site as a whole - which most do then go on to realise, after they have been around for a while.

 

[Fallax]

Oh, no-one in particular - it's more a general observation. I applaud the enthusiasm of this posters who do carpet bomb the site with pictures in this way, but feel that if they were able to take a step back they might see the that their contributions may, possibly, detract rather than add to the site as a whole - which most do then go on to realise, after they have been around for a while.

I only said it because I once got called out for doing well, what you said at Berlin Tierpark. But they weren't blurry so that's a good thing.

 

[overread]

Oh, no-one in particular - it's more a general observation. I applaud the enthusiasm of those posters who do carpet bomb the site with pictures in this way, but feel that if they were able to take a step back they might see the that their contributions may, possibly, detract rather than add to the site as a whole - which most do then go on to realise, after they have been around for a while.

I think the key here is to ask two questions

1) What is the objective for posting photos, information and the site as a whole

2) How effective is the communication of those objectives to new users; both in informing them and in keeping them within the objectives/rules.


At present I would say that there's a core of established users who have one vision for the site and the direction that they'd like it to go in; but that that vision isn't universal, nor is it shared by all. Furthermore its a vision that isn't clearly communicated toward new users nor does the website itself actually encourage that vision to be seen.


So all at the same time you've got people keeping to the vision; those who just want to share photos; photographers of a huge spectrum of skill levels; variations in posting quality, rate and content etc...

Now this isn't totally a bad thing, indeed in this Facebook dominated era having some variety in contributors is a bonus. You want to encourage all the groups, whilst at the same time I think the software needs to make it easier to encourage certain types of content and posting habits. Ergo to encourage, suggest and inspire certain desired behaviour whilst not denying other kinds.




There was a thread somewhere (I forget where) that was talking about people posting too many animal photos and not enough enclosures. Then others stating that the same animals were being posted over and over (not just within species but going down to individual level). It was a threat outlining how there was a behaviour difference and that many new to the site were not following the vision/direction of those who were more established.

However it made me think that when it comes to the galleries what are they. Well they are a simple "Geographic Region - Country - Zoo" sorting system. All there is is a zoo page for people to put their photos into in a huge community pool. There's no annual sorting; no enclosure/species sorting; no identifiable individuals etc... Ergo the site itself and the structure is't reinforcing nor informing.

So how could this be resolved?
A few ideas (note these likely will not all be compatible to have at the same time; its a series of ideas to consider. I'm also aware that search filters can achieve many of these, however this is about up front presentation rather than searching)


1) Consider breaking each zoo section into annual galleries. This at least helps to focus content (within the accuracy of those posting) so that photos from each year are put together. This will at least help to reflect change in species and enclosures over time by default. Repeat posting of the same species and individuals over the years at least allows a rough track record of individuals and groups of species as will posts of habitat and enclosures and overall zoo design.

2) Enclosure break down. Instead of annual subsections consider species/enclosure breakdown. This might well discourage some spam posting of the same species within a zoo since people will be directed to the specific species of interest at the time of uploading. They will thus already see what is there and might well adjust their behaviour without direction.
This also allows more easy tracking of specific enclosures and species at a specific zoo (based on the attached time of the photos). It also means each species gets equal footing. Even the most ignored species will get its showcase on the zoos page and it might even help prompt zoochatters to focus on some photographically neglected species and enclosures.
Massive downside to this is that this is a LOT more work to enact and keep going. Users could pick up some slack by being able to add a new gallery folder for a species, pending approval by a moderator who can then keep a handle on things to avoid incorrect or double listing. There'd also have to be a date attached in case a species/enclosure closes and then re opens with a new enclosure/individuals at a latter date.
This would also likely slow down uploading as people would have to do it by species/enclosure instead of just by zoo. So that's adding more work for uploaders.*

3) More leading/mentorship/guidance from the membership toward new members. This doesn't mean just making stickies. Stickie get ignored, overlooked, missed and miss interpreted. This means users approaching and suggesting actions and promoting behaviour from new members.
This is all about maintaining a core of highly active and engaging users to encourage and guide the site and its direction. It should focus on positive reinforcement of desired behaviour and posting pattern as well as focusing on education of new members; building awareness and understanding.






*The only way I can see this being mitigated is with even more custom code so that users upload all their photos to a single session window and then pick the subsection from a dropdown menu per photo. This at least gets the uploading done in one step and then lets the user choose where to put things. Much like how you might upload to flickr where the user can also put in commentary to each photo if desired

 

[Simon Hampel]

At present I would say that there's a core of established users who have one vision for the site and the direction that they'd like it to go in; but that that vision isn't universal, nor is it shared by all. Furthermore its a vision that isn't clearly communicated toward new users nor does the website itself actually encourage that vision to be seen.

I largely agree here.

Simply based on the very lengthy debates we've been having amongst the moderators behind the scenes in relation to just about every aspect of how we run the site - there are a lot of things that we need to consider.

We've been revisiting most of our policies - particularly around how we use the galleries - and trying to come up with a set of guidelines as to how we want the site to be used and how we as moderators will be encouraging and enforcing that vision.

I'm looking to take the opportunity relating to this upcoming upgrade to clarify the vision we have and to make it easier and more satisfying for our members to contribute and communicate.

Part of the problem is that this site is now 15 years old - we have a long legacy which impacts on both policy and perception - in many cases based on technical influences, while in others based on my original vision for the site.

The problem we've been facing is that A) many of those technical limitations are no longer relevant, and B) as the site has grown and evolved, so too has the vision. Indeed, it is no longer me setting the vision so much as it is the broader membership based on how they want to use the site.

The irony of course, is that in many cases, the way I view people using the site is dictated by the technical limitations that I and the software have imposed on them - and if those restrictions were removed or no longer relevant, then those usage patterns would likely change.

There are some policies I've held for quite a long time (mostly based on personal preference) which I've been forced to modify or abandon completely because of impassioned arguments in favour of change from the moderators. Those arguments come from being both users of the site and from being moderators observing the behaviour of other members - so it's based on what the users actually want and need from the site.

It's been an exhausting exercise so far - so many long posts and debates!

1) Consider breaking each zoo section into annual galleries. This at least helps to focus content (within the accuracy of those posting) so that photos from each year are put together. This will at least help to reflect change in species and enclosures over time by default. Repeat posting of the same species and individuals over the years at least allows a rough track record of individuals and groups of species as will posts of habitat and enclosures and overall zoo design.

2) Enclosure break down. Instead of annual subsections consider species/enclosure breakdown. This might well discourage some spam posting of the same species within a zoo since people will be directed to the specific species of interest at the time of uploading. They will thus already see what is there and might well adjust their behaviour without direction.
This also allows more easy tracking of specific enclosures and species at a specific zoo (based on the attached time of the photos). It also means each species gets equal footing. Even the most ignored species will get its showcase on the zoos page and it might even help prompt zoochatters to focus on some photographically neglected species and enclosures.
Massive downside to this is that this is a LOT more work to enact and keep going. Users could pick up some slack by being able to add a new gallery folder for a species, pending approval by a moderator who can then keep a handle on things to avoid incorrect or double listing. There'd also have to be a date attached in case a species/enclosure closes and then re opens with a new enclosure/individuals at a latter date.
This would also likely slow down uploading as people would have to do it by species/enclosure instead of just by zoo. So that's adding more work for uploaders.*

I have actually considered both of these options.

Enclosure breakdown - as you identified, would be prohibitively difficult to maintain. I think the biggest issue would be the amount of work required to upload images, since you would need to work out exactly which enclosure you've taken a photo of and find the specific category for that image - and some users may find it difficult to identify enclosures.

Allowing user to create their own categories is somewhat problematic too, since technical limitations start to surface - we're already pushing the software far harder than it was designed for (the developers considered 100 categories to be a "large" site - we have nearly 2,600 categories so far!).

Annual galleries is something I have been considering - one thing which is valuable is to be able to compare and contrast the changes at the zoo over time - both in the animals kept and in the enclosures themselves. I'm not exactly sure how we might implement that - and indeed, it may be something we can manage from a filtering perspective without setting up even more custom categories. However, it won't be that useful if I can't come up with a workable UI for it.

One interesting new feature coming up in the new version of the software which may be relevant here is the ability for users to create their own albums within photo gallery categories.

I haven't had a chance to really play with this yet - and there are potential ramification which need to be considered, but I was thinking it might help somewhat by allowing users to upload a batch of photos from each visit to a zoo.

So within each zoo category, instead of being presented with a large collection of photos from all users, you would instead be presented with a collection of albums, each one representing a group of photos uploaded by a single user. So we'd see something like this (assuming we had users user the date of their visit as the album title):

• Taronga Zoo
  • 31 Mar 2018 [Simon Hampel]
  • 29 Mar 2018 [Joe Bloggs]
• Melbourne Zoo
  • 20 Mar 2018 [Jane Bloggs]
  • 15 Mar 2018 [Jim Bloggs]
• ... etc

I'm not sure if that would actually help and I'm not sure how that really impacts on the usability of the galleries - but grouping images in this way should be easy for the users and hopefully make things a bit more manageable.

We may even be able to combine the two approaches - I could group albums by year so you can go back and see all visits made in, say, 2005 (although potentially creating 2,000 new categories each year will really test the capabilities of the software!).

I will need to do a lot more testing before I look to implement this and indeed, there is a massive issue of what to do with the 330,000 existing photos - it won't be trivial to deal with the existing images - but I think there is some promise there.

Anyway - thanks for taking the time to write such detailed your input and feedback @overread - this is very valuable and exactly what I'm looking for.

 

[Terry Thomas]

Thank you for your continued efforts to keep ZooChat working as well as is possible, Simon - it s appreciated.

I think the key requirement is one of which you are already aware, and which you mention as being on the agenda - the ability to view comments on pictures more easily once more. This will, I think, be a massively significant improvement.

On a smaller level, I miss the ability to go to a list of all members, and see basic information about them - the last time they posted, when they first posted and so on. As I understand it, I can only do that for people who have actually posted on a particular thread, or I can access a list fo the most prolific posters, at the moment.

In addition the ability to link directly to a zoo's gallery from a thread about that zoo was, I think, previously available - and would be very handy!

More controversially, two of the (often related) occasional issues on ZooChat are those of people-posting-27-blurry-and-largely-similar-photos-of-the-same-tiger, and newly-signed-up-members-posting-234-posts-and-then-disappearing. I wonder if it might be a Good Thing to have some sort of limit for those who had not yet earned their spurs, so that only a certain number of posts can be written each day, only a certain number of photos. Or maybe this is something that is just best left to the invisible hand to sort out....

Does this mean that some folks are more capable than others if they have been members for longer, and have more to say??? When I have something interesting to say I am happy to post, otherwise I am happy to learn from others when they post. As to media photos from newcomers -- if you do not want photos, or only a certain number of photos, then surely that should be made clear when a new member joins in.

 

[sooty mangabey]

Does this mean that some folks are more capable than others if they have been members for longer, and have more to say??? When I have something interesting to say I am happy to post, otherwise I am happy to learn from others when they post. As to media photos from newcomers -- if you do not want photos, or only a certain number of photos, then surely that should be made clear when a new member joins in.

I think that there have been occasions when new members - often younger members - have joined the site and, in a rather touching display of unself-conscious enthusiasm, have carpet bombed posts, before disappearing again. I was merely suggesting that there might be some period, after a person had joined, when their ability to post was limited, so as to permit a more gradual acclimatisation to the conventions of the site. That’s all. I certainly wasn’t making a comment pointed specifically at you, or any one else. On the contrary, the way in which you have contributed to the site since joining, relatively recently, seems to be a model of the way someone should join an already-established social group.

 

[pachyderm pro]

An improved gallery is much needed and I'm thrilled to see v4 will feature just that. I really like the ideas of albums and portfolios of photos in the gallery.

Sorry this post is not elaborate or multiple paragraphs, but I only have one, very minimal request for v4. All I'm asking for, is a North America - General subforum in the same vein as Europe - General. It can be annoying to post North American based states in the US section and would just be better for organizational purposes.

 

[Simon Hampel]

I only have one, very minimal request for v4. All I'm asking for, is a North America - General subforum in the same vein as Europe - General. It can be annoying to post North American based states in the US section and would just be better for organizational purposes.

I'm not sure I understand what the problem you are having is?

What do you mean by "North American based states" ?

Or are you talking about threads which cover (for example) both the US and Canada?

 

[Buldeo]

Is there a way to... 'pin' favorite galleries to one's profile currently? If not, that might be a useful addition.

 

[overread]

Sooty - in my experience limiting posts and features for new members is a very tricky thing to use. Many people when they sign up want to get active right there and then so things which slow that initial start can turn them away from the community.

At the start its important to remember that the forum to a new member is still unknown. They might well only check it regularly for a few days after signing up and in those few days they want to contribute and get into the community.

So if their post rate is hampered this can stall them. It's why most forums don't use the "moderator must approve posts before they appear" function for new members. It works to filter spam, but only if there's mods around at all hours to clear posts fast - leave them a day or two and those people will move on.

It's also why things like posting photos, links and threads being throttled back can be a hindrance to new members. Because its going to curtail the involvement of those who cause disruption as much as those who are a positive element. And in general the latter are nearly always a greater proportion of new active members than the former; the former however tend to stick in the mind more so though.





So my personal view is that its better to guide new members to desired activity than it is to throttle their potential contributions early on. It might actually help if there was a landing page for the forums so that people are first sent clearly into a front page that can outline things such as the sites objectives; how they can get involved, what kind of content is most welcome.



Simon you mentioned memberships and payments out of interest what are your thoughts there specifically. In the past forums used to do well with things like gallery storage and such for members; however as of late so much in the forum world is free to use so subscriptions tend to be just a "thanks for helping" or donation. Hidden chat sections have, in my experience, died off almost totally. They work only on very big sites with a huge population whcih is active daily; otherwise they just vanish into disuse.

 

[taun]

Sorry being lazy and may have been mentioned already as I have just skimmed that but is there a way of turning on alerts for threads, media so you can follow interesting discussions without having to comment on them?

As I some times miss the new posts and click marked as read.

Just be handy to follow a thread without having to spam it in order to get the alerts.

 

[overread]

taun at the top of a thread on the right hand side above the first post window is a watch thread button

 

[pachyderm pro]

I'm not sure I understand what the problem you are having is?

What do you mean by "North American based states" ?

Or are you talking about threads which cover (for example) both the US and Canada?

Sorry I'm late to responding. What I meant was since there is a Europe-General page that covers all of Europe in general, there should be a North America-General that covers the US, Canada and Mexico.

 

[FunkyGibbon]

I'd really appreciate a feature that allows me to view photos in the parent categories, for example 'Asia' or 'China', instead of only within the actual zoo galleries themselves. To be able to instantly see what has been added to Chinese Zoo galleries this month, or to know which photos from Malaysia have the most views would be very useful I think.

 

[Simon Hampel]

I'd really appreciate a feature that allows me to view photos in the parent categories, for example 'Asia' or 'China', instead of only within the actual zoo galleries themselves. To be able to instantly see what has been added to Chinese Zoo galleries this month, or to know which photos from Malaysia have the most views would be very useful I think.

I'm pretty sure that the next version of the software does exactly this.