ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2012

[Shirokuma]

I do think that they could improve Gorilla Kingdom by creating a sheltered area with lots of bamboo and maybe some overhead netting by the outside viewing windows.

I also think it's worth adding that from an architectural point of view, and from a zoo exhibit point of view, Gorilla Kingdom isn't particularly grandiose in any way. It's just a standard primate island and uses a lot of pre-exisiting buildings.

I think costs in London are high, as I believe has been mentioned elsewhere, for labour, for materials and also for having to build it on an area that was originally all buildings. I'm sure it would have been a lot cheaper if there had just been an empty field there before.

 

[Pertinax]

I have seen the gorillas outside on my visits, but yes, they do prefer to spend a lot of time inside, I also found this to be the case with Joe at Twycross, he used to spend most of the day inside, even though he was free to go outside when he wished, just like the London gorillas.

For a long time after ZSL Gorilla Kingdom opened, they were shut outside, at least in good weather. I think maybe they aren't any longer. Virtually everywhere, given the choice, they will spend much more time indoors, where they feel more secure(and often warmer?) than outside.

The problem is that the Zoos when they plan these fancy new enclosures, overlook this behaviour and feel duty-bound to create the largest outdoor enclosures possible. Obviously the Gorillas do use and benefit from the outdoor space too- but its often only for short periods.

 

[Pertinax]

I also think it's worth adding that from an architectural point of view, and from a zoo exhibit point of view, Gorilla Kingdom isn't particularly grandiose in any way. It's just a standard primate island and uses a lot of pre-exisiting buildings.

It is simple, and visually it works very well. The problem lies more with the animals' actual usage of it- plus being currently a sedentary non-breeding group of adults only doesn't help either.

 

[Shirokuma]

I don't think it has been mentioned that the anoas are in the left hand wing (tapir end, so to speak) of the giraffe house while the sea lions are at the zoo. I have posted pictures of the temporary sea lion setup and also of the reindeer enclosure as I don't think any pictures have been added.

 

[Pertinax]

The problem with Gorilla Kingdom?, apart from a trilogy of awful bad luck with the adult males, nothing in my opinion.

Actually, I think its more than a trilogy- you can go back six males to the root of the problem, when the Chessington 'Kumba'(who bred at London in the mid eighties) was returned to Chessington. He had already ceased breeding at ZSL, but that was the just the start of their problems.

 

[IanRRobinson]

Actually, I think its more than a trilogy- you can go back six males to the root of the problem, when the Chessington 'Kumba'(who bred at London in the mid eighties) was returned to Chessington. He had already ceased breeding at ZSL, but that was the just the start of their problems.

Yes, the decisions made in 1994 (?) seemingly produced an endless series of difficulties. Maybe the closure crisis didn't help. Either Asali and Kamili or Kumba should have moved on earlier.

I know these things are a bit more complex, but it still beggars belief just how little ZSL got back for a proven silverback and two healthy young females. Certainly it ought to have been more than Jeremiah and Diana.

Sometimes in life you get a situation where things go wrong so often that you end up feeling that a different enterprise needs to be attempted. For me, that's the situation with the London gorillas. Find them good new homes, and get in Bonobos. They have NEVER been held at London, and the PR potential would probably be matched only by the return of Giant Pandas.

 

[TARZAN]

Yes, the decisions made in 1994 (?) seemingly produced an endless series of difficulties. Maybe the closure crisis didn't help. Either Asali and Kamili or Kumba should have moved on earlier.

I know these thing are a bit more complex, but it still beggars belief just how little ZSL got back for a proven silverback and two healthy young females. Certainly it ought to have been more than Jeremiah and Diana.

Sometimes in life you get a situation where things go wrong so often that you end up feeling that a different enterprise needs to be attempted. For me, that's the situation with the London gorillas. Find them good new homes, and get in Bonobos. They have NEVER been held at London, and the PR potential would probably be matched only by the return of Giant Pandas.

Agree that it would be good to have bonobos at London, not as a replacement for the gorillas, as well as, as for bonobos having the same P.R. potential as giant pandas, never in a month of Sundays, some of the visitors would just regard them as thin chimps,as I have heard the ones at Twycross being described,if they wish to get the P.R. impact associated with giant pandas, that's achieved by getting giant pandas, hopefully one day, as well as the return of orangs and a successful breeding group in gorilla kingdom.

 

[Dassie rat]

I agree with Ian that London Zoo should just accept that it has a bad track record in breeding gorillas, despite the millions of pounds spent. It should send the gorillas to zoos with a good breeding record and try breeding bonobos. While I agree with Tarzan that giant pandas have better P.R. potential, bonobos are generally more active and interesting than giant pandas. The last time there were giant pandas at London Zoo, I think you could have replaced Ming Ming with a big black-and-white cushion and got the same level of activity. Bao Bao was far more active.

 

[IanRRobinson]

I agree with Ian that London Zoo should just accept that it has a bad track record in breeding gorillas, despite the millions of pounds spent. It should send the gorillas to zoos with a good breeding record and try breeding bonobos. While I agree with Tarzan that giant pandas have better P.R. potential, bonobos are generally more active and interesting than giant pandas. The last time there were giant pandas at London Zoo, I think you could have replaced Ming Ming with a big black-and-white cushion and got the same level of activity. Bao Bao was far more active.

Dassierat, I think Giant Pandas would be more of a draw at London now, as it's nearly 20 years since they've been held onsite. Previously there hadn't been a gap of longer than 8 years since 1938. ("Ming" 1938-44; "Lien Ho" 1946-50; "Chi Ch" 1958-72; "Chia Chia" 1974-88; "Ming Ming" 1991-94. Other animals were held during this period, but those five animals span the longest amount of time).

Up to the mid 90s I think that London visitors hazily took it for granted that at least one Giant Panda would be slumbering somewhere onsite...

As far as Bonobos are concerned; well, Twycross make pathetically little of them IMHO. The house has an ill-lit interior, which doesn't help, but they just haven't marketed the animals. I'm sure they'd be a big draw at London, done well.

 

[Pertinax]

I know these thing are a bit more complex, but it still beggars belief just how little ZSL got back for a proven silverback and two healthy young females. Certainly it ought to have been more than Jeremiah and Diana.

Sometimes in life you get a situation where things go wrong so often that you end up feeling that a different enterprise needs to be attempted. For me, that's the situation with the London gorillas. Find them good new homes, and get in Bonobos.

I think that Bristol must have been jumping with delight to get rid of Jeremiah in particular, I was amazed London accepted him and did not realise he was a complete dud. Diana had a terrible previous record of failed births and rearings (about 10 in all) but I think it was due to her previous surroundings/management as much as herself. It is remarkable how things continued so badly from then onwards.

I wouldn't mind seeing Bonobos at London. But you could keep the Gorillas too. For the Bonobos use the Colobus indoor quarters and outdoor cage, plus divide the Gorillas' island and give Bonobos part of it.

 

[Pertinax]

As far as Bonobos are concerned; well, Twycross make pathetically little of them IMHO. The house has an ill-lit interior, which doesn't help, but they just haven't marketed the animals. I'm sure they'd be a big draw at London, done well.

At Twycross the Bonobos can easily go unnonoticed amongst the large collection of other Great Apes including big numbers of Common Chimps. Its true they don't market them very much apart from as 'the only ones in the UK' I'm sure London could do better with both marketing and exhibition. Its curious that no other UK zoo apart from Twycross has taken them on.

 

[Javan Rhino]

I think that Bristol must have been jumping with delight to get rid of Jeremiah in particular, I was amazed London accepted him and did not realise he was a complete dud. Diana had a terrible previous record of failed births and rearings (about 10 in all) but I think it was due to her previous surroundings/management as much as herself. It is remarkable how things continued so badly from then onwards.

I wouldn't mind seeing Bonobos at London. But you could keep the Gorillas too. For the Bonobos use the Colobus indoor quarters and outdoor cage, plus divide the Gorillas' island and give Bonobos part of it.

Would it be a possibility for London to become a holder of surplus male gorillas? I know it's a problem in the zoo world, and if London did it right maybe they could just hold a bachelor group [I don't know how much it would need changing, with regards to separation for integrating new males].

I imagine that London want a breeding group for various reasons, but the role of surplus male holders is just as important in my opinion as a zoo that breeds them, and this is something that could be played about with in the education department to teach not only about gorillas in the wild, but also about gorillas in captivity, EEP's and ESB's in general and generally teaching the public how zoos work and explaining why they don't breed and how important their role is?

 

[leiclad20]

Would anybody be able to briefly clarify what the exact problem with london's gorilla's are? I see the situation being referred to as disatrous on here, and I know the 1st male on gorilla island died and the new male killed the new birth, but what exactly is the current problem with the group? As i understand it they have one male and three females, is this not just a new breeding group? what problems are they still having?

On an unrelated issue, I would just add my own view to the argument about the 3 million quid tiger exhibit. Look how effective port lympne's cheap new pallas cat pen is. Now such a specie does not compare to tigers, but the point is you really should't be spending 3 million on a enclosue. I agree also that lots of smaller enclosures containing more active, rarer species would be just as much of a crowd pull as 2 inactive tigers - look at the success of animal adventure. Combined exhibits (like bongo, patas monkey, drills and barbary macaques at wobourn) often allow one exhibit to show many species, which is done very unsuccessfully in london (bears/langurs/deer, and gorillas/colobus etc etc) yet is a good way to use space. If they lost the tigers at london and focussed on them at whipsnade, they could house several smaller cat species in the existing smaller cat enclosures to increase the number of species at the zoo. However you look at it, london zoo is only 36 acres and if they focus on housing fewer larger crowd pullers (that dont breed anyway), there is less to see and people get less for there money. London zoos choice of exhibit has always been poor in my opinion - a large grassy area for giant tortoise that hardly move while active sulawesi macaque live in a small converted cat cage. A huge mountainous exhibit, once well planted up, now given over to emu and a few wallaby. Goat hills left unused, half the clore house not used, hybrid gibbons and bearded pigs kept etc etc. I do think the gorilla exhibit itself is ok, as long as you have gorillas that love electroc fence - no wonder they hardly ever go outside.

They could have done a lot with 3 million pounds, the area for the tiger enclosure is not huge anyway so its unlikely to be the best tiger exhibit in europe once finished even with all that money. The area theyllbe housed in (with tapirs next door) is densely planted, and once housed elephants, hippos, green agouti in the elephant moat, cranes (witht the hippos) owls and anoa. Now, giant tortoise, tapir and 2 tigers. Sorry, but that is poor planning.

 

[Pertinax]

As i understand it they have one male and three females, is this not just a new breeding group? what problems are they still having?

In another unbeleivable stroke of bad fortune, the current male Kesho has been diagnosed with Klinefelter's Syndrome which renders him either entirely, (or nearly) infertile, so no breeding. If he was fertile its highly likely the youngest female Mjuku would already be pregnant, as in every other respect Kesho is a good, socialised male.

London certainly didn't deserve this further blow to their attempts to set up a good group.

 

[IanRRobinson]

Would anybody be able to briefly clarify what the exact problem with london's gorilla's are? I see the situation being referred to as disatrous on here, and I know the 1st male on gorilla island died and the new male killed the new birth, but what exactly is the current problem with the group? As i understand it they have one male and three females, is this not just a new breeding group? what problems are they still having?

On an unrelated issue, I would just add my own view to the argument about the 3 million quid tiger exhibit. Look how effective port lympne's cheap new pallas cat pen is. Now such a specie does not compare to tigers, but the point is you really should't be spending 3 million on a enclosue. I agree also that lots of smaller enclosures containing more active, rarer species would be just as much of a crowd pull as 2 inactive tigers - look at the success of animal adventure. Combined exhibits (like bongo, patas monkey, drills and barbary macaques at wobourn) often allow one exhibit to show many species, which is done very unsuccessfully in london (bears/langurs/deer, and gorillas/colobus etc etc) yet is a good way to use space. If they lost the tigers at london and focussed on them at whipsnade, they could house several smaller cat species in the existing smaller cat enclosures to increase the number of species at the zoo. However you look at it, london zoo is only 36 acres and if they focus on housing fewer larger crowd pullers (that dont breed anyway), there is less to see and people get less for there money. London zoos choice of exhibit has always been poor in my opinion - a large grassy area for giant tortoise that hardly move while active sulawesi macaque live in a small converted cat cage. A huge mountainous exhibit, once well planted up, now given over to emu and a few wallaby. Goat hills left unused, half the clore house not used, hybrid gibbons and bearded pigs kept etc etc. I do think the gorilla exhibit itself is ok, as long as you have gorillas that love electroc fence - no wonder they hardly ever go outside.

They could have done a lot with 3 million pounds, the area for the tiger enclosure is not huge anyway so its unlikely to be the best tiger exhibit in europe once finished even with all that money. The area theyllbe housed in (with tapirs next door) is densely planted, and once housed elephants, hippos, green agouti in the elephant moat, cranes (witht the hippos) owls and anoa. Now, giant tortoise, tapir and 2 tigers. Sorry, but that is poor planning.

You've pinpointed an awful lot of points here, leiclad. I don't agree with everything you say, but personally I feel you've got "Tiger Territory" bang to rights.

Concerning the Gorillas - "Kesho" has turned out to have a chromosomal abnormality which makes him infertile. So London acquired a male who killed their first successful birth in over 20 years, and won't be able to sire any replacements..

The three females are: "Zaire", has bred in the past, but longstanding behavioural issues and now 37; "Effie", has bred in West Berlin but has never reared offspring; and "Mjukuu", "Tiny"'s mother and probably the one animal that would be rehomed easily out of the four.

 

[Pertinax]

Would it be a possibility for London to become a holder of surplus male gorillas?

Not a bad idea, but there are two problems I see;

1. I think they still want a social, breeding group- although they are currently no closer to that aim than previously.

2. The housing doesn't really allow for animals to be split up if need be(except in the offshow area)

And important as it is, I can't somehow see London being prepared to 'downgrade' to that system of keeping Gorillas.

 

[leiclad20]

Thanks pertinax and Ian, thats interesting about klinefelters in the male. Just for information only, klinefelters is a chromosomal ploidy abnormality, whereby the male has XXY, instead of just XY. It can be associated with neurological problems too, and often learning disability in adult (humans!). A related ploidy variaton is XYY, and is is lucky that the male didn't inherit this - in humans, it has been found in disporportionate numbers in men convicted of violent crimes, and is associated with aggressive behaviour.

So what is the plan then? split up the group and start again? or keep the existing females and get a new male in. Bet they'd love going through that again (although at least maybe the 3 girls will finally get some lovin' action).

 

[Dassie rat]

Thanks Leiclad20 for your insightful comments. I agree that if ZSL wants to concentrate on Sumatrans tigers, it would be better to move them to Whipsnade, rather than trying to raise millions of pounds during a recession by trying to kid people that a new enclosure will save Sumatran tigers in the wild. As you say, enclosures for a range of small cats could be built with a lot less money and would be better to promote conservation, especially as many small cats are poorly represented in zoos and are just as endangered, if not more so, than tigers. While there are customers who would prefer to see tigers in every zoo, regardless of whether they are moving or not, I'm sure that a range of attractive, active small cats would be more interesting than trying to see a sleeping tiger from several metres away. London Zoo is quite small and the move to have fewer enclosures, but making each enclosure larger than it needs to be is not only a way to decrease the number of species on show, but could lead to more complaints about large enclosures that appear to be empty.

The current plan for the gorillas seems to be to keep the group as it is. I still feel sad about what happened to Tiny the gorilla as I saw him 4 days before he was killed. Mjukuu was a good mother and I feel she deserves better than being with a probably sterile male. I would move the gorillas away from ZSL and accept defeat. Many years ago, my father had a problem with his car. He took it to a garage and the first fault was repaired and another fault appeared. Over a period of a few weeks, he kept on taking the car backwards and forwards, while the garage made a lot of money. Eventually, He accepted that he should replace the car, as he'd probably spent more on repairs than the car was worth. I feel the same way about London Zoo's gorillas. The only gorilla birth have been 4 births covering a few years from the early 1970s to the late 1980s and Tiny's birth in 2010. When the zoo was threatened with closure about 20 years ago, it decided to concentrate on gorillas. One birth and 5 deaths is not acceptable and whether it is a case of bad luck or whatever, I think it's time to face facts and move on. There are about 750 captive western lowland gorillas, about 9 times as many as are needed to save this subspecies from extinction. There are many zoos that are better at keeping this subspecies, while London Zoo has exhibited and bred many species and has won awards for its exhibits, husbandry etc. It also has people trying to conserve animals around the world. It just hasn't been successful with gorillas and is it really worth risking the lives of other gorillas, when Mjukuu and perhaps Effie could breed successfully elsewhere?

 

[Jordan-Jaguar97]

Thanks Leiclad20 for your insightful comments. I agree that if ZSL wants to concentrate on Sumatrans tigers, it would be better to move them to Whipsnade, rather than trying to raise millions of pounds during a recession by trying to kid people that a new enclosure will save Sumatran tigers in the wild. As you say, enclosures for a range of small cats could be built with a lot less money and would be better to promote conservation, especially as many small cats are poorly represented in zoos and are just as endangered, if not more so, than tigers. While there are customers who would prefer to see tigers in every zoo, regardless of whether they are moving or not, I'm sure that a range of attractive, active small cats would be more interesting than trying to see a sleeping tiger from several metres away. London Zoo is quite small and the move to have fewer enclosures, but making each enclosure larger than it needs to be is not only a way to decrease the number of species on show, but could lead to more complaints about large enclosures that appear to be empty.

The current plan for the gorillas seems to be to keep the group as it is. I still feel sad about what happened to Tiny the gorilla as I saw him 4 days before he was killed. Mjukuu was a good mother and I feel she deserves better than being with a probably sterile male. I would move the gorillas away from ZSL and accept defeat. Many years ago, my father had a problem with his car. He took it to a garage and the first fault was repaired and another fault appeared. Over a period of a few weeks, he kept on taking the car backwards and forwards, while the garage made a lot of money. Eventually, He accepted that he should replace the car, as he'd probably spent more on repairs than the car was worth. I feel the same way about London Zoo's gorillas. The only gorilla birth have been 4 births covering a few years from the early 1970s to the late 1980s and Tiny's birth in 2010. When the zoo was threatened with closure about 20 years ago, it decided to concentrate on gorillas. One birth and 5 deaths is not acceptable and whether it is a case of bad luck or whatever, I think it's time to face facts and move on. There are about 750 captive western lowland gorillas, about 9 times as many as are needed to save this subspecies from extinction. There are many zoos that are better at keeping this subspecies, while London Zoo has exhibited and bred many species and has won awards for its exhibits, husbandry etc. It also has people trying to conserve animals around the world. It just hasn't been successful with gorillas and is it really worth risking the lives of other gorillas, when Mjukuu and perhaps Effie could breed successfully elsewhere?

I doubt they'd move the Sumatrans to Whipsnade. A new Amur tigress will arrive (Hopefully) later in the year at Whipsnade. Whipsnade also has a good record at breeding Amur's. They have stopped breeding at the moment, they've only got one female born in 2001. Whipsnade bred a total of five cubs in two years (1999&2001).
The new enclosure is being built for the Sumatrans too.

 

[Shirokuma]

The tigers aren't going anywhere as the new enclosure is going ahead regardless of what we think. I don't wish to sound rude but we're just going over the same points again and again with both tigers and gorillas.