ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2012

[Pertinax]

but to do this he'd have to overcome his liklihood of infertility AND mental retardation, as is common in klinefetters.

I think I'll put the lid back on the can now.

Suffice to say Kesho looks perfectly normal to me but I have only seen him once- I don't know if there's been any suggestion of retardation.

One of London's previous males- Jeremiah- who was born at Bristol Zoo, and was both inbred and handraised, was definately very strange though- I always thought he could be mentally retarded but we'll never know as he died a long while ago now.

 

[IanRRobinson]

I think I'll put the lid back on the can now.

Suffice to say Kesho looks perfectly normal to me but I have only seen him once- I don't know if there's been any suggestion of retardation.

One of London's previous males- Jeremiah- who was born at Bristol Zoo, and was both inbred and handraised, was definitely very strange though- I always thought he could be mentally retarded but we'll never know as he died a long while ago now.

Certainly at least two very experienced keepers at London in the 1990s expressed their opinion that Jeremiah was several bricks shy of a hod, as it were.

Whether Kesho is or not I don't know, but he is surely infertile. London Zoo is wasting time with these animals. Kesho will never be a group leader, and the females - maybe even Zaire - need to be with a male who will sire young. The suggestion that the Zoo's PR want to keep the group as it is to impress Olympic year tourists, if true, tells us a huge amount about present management priorities.

Imagine suggesting this to Gerald Durrell, or Molly Badham, with all the latter's quirks, let alone John Aspinall, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Pertinax]

experienced keepers at London in the 1990s expressed their opinion that Jeremiah was several bricks shy of a hod, as it were.

Whether Kesho is or not I don't know, but he is surely infertile. London Zoo is wasting time with these animals. Kesho will never be a group leader, and the females - maybe even Zaire - need to be with a male who will sire young. The suggestion that the Zoo's PR want to keep the group as it is to impress Olympic year tourists, if true, tells us a huge amount about present management priorities.

I knew Jeremiah from a young animal at Bristol- he was always very strange, and sickly(permanently coldy) too. He was also poor sighted, and had webbed toes. Most abnormal. As I said before, I couldn't believe London accepted him(and Diana). It was when Bristol closed their old Ape House and needed to rehome the last two Gorillas until GK was built. They were obviously looking to start with completely new animals afterwards!

Kesho- agree with all your comments above except I think he would be/is a group leader, just an infertile one. I believe they may want to keep them as a unified(?) group this year for the reason I suggested, so there is not disruption to the display. I agree a replacement male(or addition of a fertile younger one) should be the absolute priority. Even Zaire could still breed again- despite what they say that she is not too old. ( she's only a year older than Salome at Bristol and look at her )

 

[devilfish]

Suffice to say Kesho looks perfectly normal to me but I have only seen him once- I don't know if there's been any suggestion of retardation.

I don't think mental retardation is such a big feature of Klinefelter's. There are often language development problems (which would be difficult to detect in a gorilla!) as well as a range of learning difficulties, but generally, intelligence can still be normal with only a slightly lower IQ than average.

 

[johnstoni.]

As far as I'm aware, AI is risky and has so far been unsuccessful in captive gorillas. However, the advent of operant conditioning may provide better conditions for improved methods to be tried more often, rather than anesthetizing animals.

Thing is, its not going to be great for London to have any more problems, and embarking on AI with a great ape species would be unusual enough to lead interested press and members of the public back to the central problem, which is that the have so far failed to create a successful breeding group of gorillas.

I get the argument about ABC species but, even if ZSL manages to have immense breeding success with a new male (assuming they obtain one), ZSL will remain in the shadow of the nearest large zoo, Chessington, in terms of gorillas, of which it shares all the largest 'ABC' species: Sumatran tigers, Asiatic lions, gorillas, and soon giraffe.

Bonobos would just be more active, may cope better with the massively exposed viewing areas, would be less uncomfortable in an open-air enclosure, and would be under less scrutiny than gorillas by the public at large. Orang-utans will just look awful unless they are in semi-natural vegetation, even a Chester-style exhibit in a built-up area such as London will be dreadful - visitors notice zoo concrete more when they are in the city, because they visit the zoo to get away from it.

 

[IanRRobinson]

As far as I'm aware, AI is risky and has so far been unsuccessful in captive gorillas. However, the advent of operant conditioning may provide better conditions for improved methods to be tried more often, rather than anesthetizing animals.

Thing is, its not going to be great for London to have any more problems, and embarking on AI with a great ape species would be unusual enough to lead interested press and members of the public back to the central problem, which is that the have so far failed to create a successful breeding group of gorillas.

I get the argument about ABC species but, even if ZSL manages to have immense breeding success with a new male (assuming they obtain one), ZSL will remain in the shadow of the nearest large zoo, Chessington, in terms of gorillas, of which it shares all the largest 'ABC' species: Sumatran tigers, Asiatic lions, gorillas, and soon giraffe.

Bonobos would just be more active, may cope better with the massively exposed viewing areas, would be less uncomfortable in an open-air enclosure, and would be under less scrutiny than gorillas by the public at large. Orang-utans will just look awful unless they are in semi-natural vegetation, even a Chester-style exhibit in a built-up area such as London will be dreadful - visitors notice zoo concrete more when they are in the city, because they visit the zoo to get away from it.

I agree. Orangs would require an entirely new facility, sadly. I say "sadly" because in many ways they are the ideal great ape for an urban zoo with limited space, as they are largely asocial and height would be a more important requirement than ground space. The Sumatran species is also fast running out of space in the wild:Rebel hero who has 'betrayed' the last of Aceh's orang-utans - Nature - Environment - The Independent

 

[TARZAN]

I agree. Orangs would require an entirely new facility, sadly. I say "sadly" because in many ways they are the ideal great ape for an urban zoo with limited space, as they are largely asocial and height would be a more important requirement than ground space. The Sumatran species is also fast running out of space in the wild:Rebel hero who has 'betrayed' the last of Aceh's orang-utans - Nature - Environment - The Independent

Regarding the possibility of orangs returning to Regents Park and where to build this exhibit, what do members of zoo chat think about refurbishing the Mappin Terraces for this purpose?, would it be out of the realms of possibility?, not just an exhibit where the visitors stand next to the Mappin cafe observing the animals from a distance as it is presently with the Australian animals and as it was with "Bear Mountain", but returning the Mappins to a full walk around exhibit as it used to be, in a 21st century way, also including other support species that Dassie Rat mentions, which are of coarse equally important.

 

[Shirokuma]

Regarding the possibility of orangs returning to Regents Park and where to build this exhibit, what do members of zoo chat think about refurbishing the Mappin Terraces for this purpose?, would it be out of the realms of possibility?, not just an exhibit where the visitors stand next to the Mappin cafe observing the animals from a distance as it is presently with the Australian animals and as it was with "Bear Mountain", but returning the Mappins to a full walk around exhibit as it used to be, in a 21st century way, also including other support species that Dassie Rat mentions, which are of coarse equally important.

I think indoor accommodation would be the main problem with housing orang utans on the Mappin Terraces.

 

[IanRRobinson]

I think indoor accommodation would be the main problem with housing orang utans on the Mappin Terraces.

Yes, it was something I could never really have imagined working with gorillas either, as was proposed in 1993.

At that time, the idea was to have the Mappins used for Western Gorillas, and the Stork and Ostrich House southern paddocks would have been extended onto the newly vacated sealion pool to provide a home for Spectacled Bears.

The elephant accommodation would have been expanded onto the events lawn, where a bull house would have been built.

As may be noted, these plans weren't to be executed.

 

[TARZAN]

I think indoor accommodation would be the main problem with housing orang utans on the Mappin Terraces.

Yes that is true as the Mappins stand at the moment, I do think that it would be possible to build indoor accommodation on this site to house orangs, of coarse probably costing a lot of money to do so, and why not? London is a world class zoo and therefore deserves the best.

 

[TARZAN]

Yes, it was something I could never really have imagined working with gorillas either, as was proposed in 1993.

At that time, the idea was to have the Mappins used for Western Gorillas, and the Stork and Ostrich House southern paddocks would have been extended onto the newly vacated sealion pool to provide a home for Spectacled Bears.

The elephant accommodation would have been expanded onto the events lawn, where a bull house would have been built.

As may be noted, these plans weren't to be executed.

For someone who claims to be so fond of London Zoo, which I have no doubt you genuinely are, perhaps it is time to stop dwelling in the past and criticising what happened years ago and face up to the present, think positive and you might get somewhere, think negative and you will get nowhere, advice given to me years ago by a wise old Jewish friend, a very much self made millionaire, advice I took notice of , and I am pleased to say I have never come unstuck to this day, incidentally this old friend of mine was always interested in me telling him about my visits to London Zoo, as he used to go there in his younger day while in the army courting his wife, who originally came from Hackney.

 

[IanRRobinson]

Unnecessarily aggressive in tone, like others of your posts I fear. And other posters have commented on this.

No-one can understand the present without reference to the past, and if you know where you've been, you are in a better position to work out where to go to.

 

[sooty mangabey]

Unnecessarily aggressive in tone, like others of your posts I fear. And other posters have commented on this.

No-one can understand the present without reference to the past, and if you know where you've been, you are in a better position to work out where to go to.

I'm sure Tarzan is more than capable of fighting his own corner, but I don't think he is being aggressive here (and I write that as someone who has tussled with him in the past). Going on his postings elsewhere, which show an encyclopaedic knowledge of circus history, Tarzan is a chap very much in tune with the past. However, here I think he was simply calling for an optimistic view of London's future, and an acceptance of the fact that the zoo of the 50s, the zoo that many of us would like to be able to visit again, is not going to ever return. As his name suggests, Tarzan is a passionate fellow who lets his passions show (and a good thing too, I would say!).

 

[TARZAN]

I'm sure Tarzan is more than capable of fighting his own corner, but I don't think he is being aggressive here (and I write that as someone who has tussled with him in the past). Going on his postings elsewhere, which show an encyclopaedic knowledge of circus history, Tarzan is a chap very much in tune with the past. However, here I think he was simply calling for an optimistic view of London's future, and an acceptance of the fact that the zoo of the 50s, the zoo that many of us would like to be able to visit again, is not going to ever return. As his name suggests, Tarzan is a passionate fellow who lets his passions show (and a good thing too, I would say!).

Thank you for that, yes we have had a few disagreements in the past, and probably will do in the future! The name Tarzan derives from a political hero of mine, although I am not a Tory I hasten to add, this was the name given by the press to a certain gentleman who in parliament who was famous for grabbing the mace in the house of commons, he later instigated the downfall of a certain lady who I would describe as "uncaring", an encyclopedic knowledge of circus history, what a compliment!, perhaps it is just a case of remembering the good times, just like London Zoo,evening all, the morale (unaggressive) policeman,

 

[Cat-Man]

Would it not be unfeasable to house Orang-utans in the Casson?

 

[Javan Rhino]

Would it not be unfeasable to house Orang-utans in the Casson?

I must admit I'd thought that one, the wasted height it has now would be ideal for orangs. It would look far from pretty, but could be functional. A few problems I can pick out:

1) You would need the exhibits of the bearded pigs and the camels I think, and I don't know if they're physically connected in any way to allow free movement of the orangs between the two.

2) Changes would have to be dramatic to the current set up, with regards to the outdoor and indoor areas. This would cost an absolute fortune, and I'm not even sure all of the necessary renovations would be allowed with the listed building status.

3) As far as I can tell there are no night dens currently in the Casson that would be suitable for a group of orangs. Likewise, I don't imagine where you could implement the night dens without using too much money or breaching the listed building laws.

However, if it could possibly be done, I can imagine it would look quite nice. Theme the surrounding enclosures [bamboo lemur, polecat, armadillo] with some highly endangered Sumatran small mammals [ideally Sumatran striped rabbit, but know that one won't happen ]. Even some birds and reptiles if there are room, but with the Blackburn Pavillion and the Reptile House I think the room could be better allocated to mammals in themed areas.

 

[OrangePerson]

3) As far as I can tell there are no night dens currently in the Casson that would be suitable for a group of orangs. Likewise, I don't imagine where you could implement the night dens without using too much money or breaching the listed building laws.

Not sure what the Casson is like, so may not be understanding what it could provide but I'm not sure about your concept of 'night dens', the Sumatrans at Chester don't have 'night dens' as such, they have lots of places they can go as they wish but not what I would call 'night dens'.

 

[Pertinax]

the Sumatrans at Chester don't have 'night dens' as such, they have lots of places they can go as they wish but not what I would call 'night dens'.

Don't they have areas behind the scenes(under the public walkway) where they can be segregated individually e.g. for feeding, illness etc?

 

[Javan Rhino]

Not sure what the Casson is like, so may not be understanding what it could provide but I'm not sure about your concept of 'night dens', the Sumatrans at Chester don't have 'night dens' as such, they have lots of places they can go as they wish but not what I would call 'night dens'.

You could be right here, I know at least one of the species definately has night dens, I could be confusing it and it's for the Borneans .

When I say night dens, I mean an area of off-show, small barred 'cubicles' with a couple of platforms in each and lots of hay bedding. Basically night dens = beds

 

[IanRRobinson]

Well, the Casson does have two substantial hospital dens built for elephants and rhinos. So the indoor dens could be adapted for night accommodation. I think this was being talked about on a back of an envelope basis about 12-15 years ago, maybe not very seriously.

The real problem would surely be the exterior, built for resolutely terrestrial large mammals and now presumably with some planning restrictions attached. How that could be turned into something stimulating enough and secure enough for orangs I don't know.

On a more personal note: at no stage have I EVER said that I want London to go back to how it was thirty years ago. Personally I feel that the elephants should have gone in the mid 1970s, that the Sobells should never have had more than two species of Great Ape after Guy's demise in 1978, and that the Lion Terraces would have worked better if built to house only three species of big cat, rather than the original five.

It is not being "negative" to criticise and suggest that the present policies of management may not be the best way forward. Anyone who's looked at my posts will see that they're overloaded with suggestions for exhibit ideas at Regent's Park, and for that matter Whipsnade; planning within ZSL is surely best accomplished on the basis of "one collection, two sites". This may be the hallmark of an overactive mind, but I don't see that it's that of a negative one.

I am reminded, in conclusion, of scene in "A Man For All Seasons". Sir Thomas More has been summoned to Hampton Court, where Cardinal Wolsey wishes to win him over to support his policy of securing Henry VIII a divorce.

Wolsey, as an introduction, says to More: "You opposed me today in Council today, Thomas. You were the only one. Why ?"

More's response is quite simple. "I thought Your Grace was wrong".