Australian Asian Elephant Population 2025

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I think the issue is the zoo wouldn't really want to seperate the herd overnight. Sleeping and being together overnight is a huge part of forming bonds, and keeping the elephants apart overnight would likely weaken the bonds. Especially with the herd consisting of different matrilines, that wouldn't be preferable. Furthermore, the herd probably wouldn't react well having to sleep separate (especially with them not being used to it).

I don't think there's issue with the zoo having future bull calves, more so female calves which will need space within the cow barn in the long term. If Anjalee welcomes a bull calf in the coming months, there would be space for it in one of the other two barns eventually, and it would likely be able to co-exist with Sabai long term.

Still, it would be good for Dubbo to get rid of one of the three bulls. Sabai makes the most sense - and the only likely way I can see him departing is via export. But at the same time retaining two rather 'unsociable' bulls (for lack of a better word), would also be difficult for Dubbo in the long term, so it would make sense for them to send one of Gung or Pathi elsewhere. If Putra Mas doesn't breed Pak Boon, there could be an opportunity for Pathi Harn being sent down to Monarto.

Definitely separating the group isn't a foolproof option. However, I feel like given Dubbo's current setup, some seperation would really be the only way to keep Thong Dee and Porntip as breeding cows.

Moreover, the current stall setup would likely work if Porntip and Thong Dee each have calves for a couple of years at least, which could theoretically give Dubbo time to gather funding for the new barn/begin construction. If the animals outgrow the stalls, then seperation could be utilized for a short period while construction is completed, and then the group could be reunited in the new space.

Of course, this hypothetical relies on Taronga actually making the barn a priority

 

[Zoofan15]

If the cows are tolerant of seperation (which, to be fair, they could not be) then I see little reason not to breed Porntip and Thong Dee once more and then utilize the empty barn to divide matrilines and then potentially excess bulls later on. They could even theoretically alternate the cow groupings per barn depending on the day.
Porntip, Kanlaya and a hypothetical calf could spend time in one barn with Thongdee + a hypothetical calf in one stall and Anjalee + a hypothetical calf in another stall in the other barn. Then of course they'd be on exhibit together during the day. It wouldn't be ideal but it would be a fine set-up until a new barn could be built and would, at least, buy Thong Dee and Porntip time.
Even if they delay the barn for another ~5-6 years, any bull calves should continue to be housed with their mothers. Bull calves, especially those raised in herd settings tend to be able to stay with the group longer.
Of course, none of this is ideal, but imo it should be a priority to keep Thong Dee and Porntip viable.

Another priority should be transferring one of the bulls out. I know the costs to export are far from normal in the current US political climate, but getting Sabai out of Dubbo would be an immense weight off of Dubbo's shoulders. It would free up a paddock and a stall which means they could accomodate up to three male calves.

I think the issue is the zoo wouldn't really want to seperate the herd overnight. Sleeping and being together overnight is a huge part of forming bonds, and keeping the elephants apart overnight would likely weaken the bonds. Especially with the herd consisting of different matrilines, that wouldn't be preferable. Furthermore, the herd probably wouldn't react well having to sleep separate (especially with them not being used to it).

I don't think there's issue with the zoo having future bull calves, more so female calves which will need space within the cow barn in the long term. If Anjalee welcomes a bull calf in the coming months, there would be space for it in one of the other two barns eventually, and it would likely be able to co-exist with Sabai long term.

Still, it would be good for Dubbo to get rid of one of the three bulls. Sabai makes the most sense - and the only likely way I can see him departing is via export. But at the same time retaining two rather 'unsociable' bulls (for lack of a better word), would also be difficult for Dubbo in the long term, so it would make sense for them to send one of Gung or Pathi elsewhere. If Putra Mas doesn't breed Pak Boon, there could be an opportunity for Pathi Harn being sent down to Monarto.

It’s worth noting that Porntip shares a stall with her seven year old daughter Kanlaya as an example of how spacious they are. I can accept adding a third elephant to this space might be considered too much; but at a minimum, they could have bred from Thong Dee again, who has a stall to herself.

The obvious move would have been to have bred Pathi Harn to Thong Dee (since the region really doesn’t need a a third son from Gung and Thong Dee). Female calves are always preferable and could be accommodated in the existing matriarchal herd barn long term:

Stall 1: Porntip and Kanlaya
Stall 2: Thong Dee and hypothetical calf
Stall 3: Anjalee and calf

Bull calves could be accommodated between the other two barns depending which Gung is occupying at the time. He should be having regular musth cycles, so I suspect he’s housed in his own barn during that time. By this time, there may well be an avenue for transferring out Pathi Harn or Sabai.

 

[Jambo]

It’s worth noting that Porntip shares a stall with her seven year old daughter Kanlaya as an example of how spacious they are. I can accept adding a third elephant to this space might be considered too much; but at a minimum, they could have bred from Thong Dee again, who has a stall to herself.

The obvious move would have been to have bred Pathi Harn to Thong Dee (since the region really doesn’t need a a third son from Gung and Thong Dee). Female calves are always preferable and could be accommodated in the existing matriarchal herd barn long term:

Stall 1: Porntip and Kanlaya
Stall 2: Thong Dee and hypothetical calf
Stall 3: Anjalee and calf

Bull calves could be accommodated between the other two barns depending which Gung is occupying at the time. He should be having regular musth cycles, so I suspect he’s housed in his own barn during that time. By this time, there may well be an avenue for transferring out Pathi Harn or Sabai.

Since we've only ever seen photos/videos of the newer barn which currently appears to house Pathi and Sabai at least, I thought it would be interesting to try and find anything on the other two older barns. Alas, I was lucky enough to find this short video;
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IirDcTAiy6E

The footage is blurry so it's hard to tell which elephants are present; however it looks like Cuddles the African Elephant and Gigi the Asian Elephant. It's difficult to tell which barn they're in, but I'd assume it's the oldest and largest of the two older barns. It's really interesting to me that Gigi was kept alongside Cuddles in the barn, as I had assumed Cuddles lived predominantly solitary following the passing of Yum Yum.

Anyhow, it gives a good idea of the size of the stalls in the barn. Certainly not as big as those in the newer, larger barn which is obviously used to house the mature bulls. The stalls are quite obviously designed for just a single elephant each.

It's also worth noting that the larger of the two older barns may have four stalls, not three. Dubbo initially imported four elephants from the UK in 1977, so that would make sense, especially as they had six at a later point.

I recall also seeing footage from a doco on Arna and Gigi's move to Dubbo back in 2008 which showed the smaller of the older two barns. It was clearly just two stalls there, but they were much bigger than the stalls shown in this video.

 

[Zoofan15]

Since we've only ever seen photos/videos of the newer barn which currently appears to house Pathi and Sabai at least, I thought it would be interesting to try and find anything on the other two older barns. Alas, I was lucky enough to find this short video;
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IirDcTAiy6E

The footage is blurry so it's hard to tell which elephants are present; however it looks like Cuddles the African Elephant and Gigi the Asian Elephant. It's difficult to tell which barn they're in, but I'd assume it's the oldest and largest of the two older barns. It's really interesting to me that Gigi was kept alongside Cuddles in the barn, as I had assumed Cuddles lived predominantly solitary following the passing of Yum Yum.

Anyhow, it gives a good idea of the size of the stalls in the barn. Certainly not as big as those in the newer, larger barn which is obviously used to house the mature bulls. The stalls are quite obviously designed for just a single elephant each.

It's also worth noting that the larger of the two older barns may have four stalls, not three. Dubbo initially imported four elephants from the UK in 1977, so that would make sense, especially as they had six at a later point.

I recall also seeing footage from a doco on Arna and Gigi's move to Dubbo back in 2008 which showed the smaller of the older two barns. It was clearly just two stalls there, but they were much bigger than the stalls shown in this video.

I believe the original barn is three stalls, but I’m wondering if this is because either two stalls were merged into one; or even six small stalls were merged into three. It was built in the 1970’s when standards were considerably lower and the expectation was for the elephants to spend the majority of their time outside as opposed to it being an elephant house (not that they were anymore spacious). The six stalls theory also takes into account they were intending to breed and so having an additional two stalls could have been allocated for calves that never came.

The import of an additional 1.1 African elephants necessitated the construction of the second barn (two stalls); though this was as much around accomodating the bulls separately from the cows. Zoos were beginning to give greater acknowledgment to the natural social order of animals (in this case bulls living separately) and there was how this would lead to successful breeding in the herd.

 

[Zorro]

I believe the original barn is three stalls, but I’m wondering if this is because either two stalls were merged into one; or even six small stalls were merged into three. It was built in the 1970’s when standards were considerably lower and the expectation was for the elephants to spend the majority of their time outside as opposed to it being an elephant house (not that they were anymore spacious). The six stalls theory also takes into account they were intending to breed and so having an additional two stalls could have been allocated for calves that never came.

The import of an additional 1.1 African elephants necessitated the construction of the second barn (two stalls); though this was as much around accomodating the bulls separately from the cows. Zoos were beginning to give greater acknowledgment to the natural social order of animals (in this case bulls living separately) and there was how this would lead to successful breeding in the herd.

I saw all 6 elephants at the herds peak the imported American bull (Congo) from was a very large bull I recall at the time said to have been one of the largest bulls in any zoo at the time so I would imagine any stall and barn would have been on the large side, I recall he had bred in the USA and came from an American "Safari" park near LA. There appears to be some old pics of him the the Dubbo zoos gallery!

 

[Zoofan15]

I saw all 6 elephants at the herds peak the imported American bull (Congo) from was a very large bull I recall at the time said to have been one of the largest bulls in any zoo at the time so I would imagine any stall and barn would have been on the large side, I recall he had bred in the USA and came from an American "Safari" park near LA. There appears to be some old pics of him the the Dubbo zoos gallery!

That’s great you saw him in person.

Congo indeed sired three calves prior to his import into Australia:

The first was a male named Diamond. He was born 1980 and died at the age of 14 years in 1994.

The second was a male who was stillborn in 1980.

The third was a male who died the year he was born in 1982.

According to the Elephant Database, Congo was wild born in 1958 and captured in 1969. In 1970, he arrived at the Lion Country Safari, where he lived until his export to Dubbo in 1983.

 

[Tiger91]

We are entering late 2025, so we should start to see birth watch for Anjalee soon. It will be interesting how public the makes this birth.

 

[Zoofan15]

We are entering late 2025, so we should start to see birth watch for Anjalee soon. It will be interesting how public the makes this birth.

Anjalee’s calf is predicted to be born the first week of December. Due to being her first calf, they don’t have a previous reproductive history to work from, so this estimate comes from the average gestation of other cows on record, including within the Australian population.

However it wouldn’t be unexpected for the calf to be born anytime from late October to late December.

A female calf would be greatly advantageous - both to establish a matriline from Anjalee; and to have a surviving daughter from Gung, who has two living sons (both with Thong Dee).

 

[Jambo]

We are entering late 2025, so we should start to see birth watch for Anjalee soon. It will be interesting how public the makes this birth.

Taronga started their program off flying with three calves within the space of 16 months. They then had a further three within the space of 18 months six years later. It's now been over seven years since their last calf so I'd imagine it would be big news.

A female calf would be great for Dubbo's herd which really needs to begin to grow the numbers of their matriarchal herd, especially if Porntip and Thong Dee won't breed again.

 

[Zoofan15]

Taronga started their program off flying with three calves within the space of 16 months. They then had a further three within the space of 18 months six years later. It's now been over seven years since their last calf so I'd imagine it would be big news.

A female calf would be great for Dubbo's herd which really needs to begin to grow the numbers of their matriarchal herd, especially if Porntip and Thong Dee won't breed again.

Taronga’s communications protocol for the last three births was an announcement 1-3 days after the birth. The three cows were all second time mothers and the births were uneventful, with the calves born healthy. It’s not standard practice by Taronga to announce labour (Porntip’s 2010 birth being an exception due to the initial belief the calf had died); so especially with Anjalee being a first time mother, I’m not expecting an announcement until the calf is on the ground. Hopefully 1-3 days after the birth, we’ll hear news via socials that they have a healthy calf.

Though I believe that if Pak Boon fails to conceive at Monarto, they’d best serve the region as a bachelor facility; if Anjalee produces a daughter, I would never rule out her matriline transferring to Monarto in decades to come (perhaps in a swap for Pak Boon and Tang Mo if they believed reuniting them with Porntip and Thong Dee would be successful).

 

[Luke899]

Perhasp @Luke899 or @marmolady could update us on their next visit as to how the construction is progressing.

Late spring implies November, so hopefully that’s the plan before both the height of summer and Putra Mas’ 2026 musth cycle kicks in. If they don’t transfer him before then, that will lock him out until April/May 2026, which I fear would have implications for Pak Boon conceiving.

I see a cow at Blackpool has just delivered a live calf 13 years after her last birth. That’s not a birth interval we want to aspire to. It’s been eight years since Pak Boon’s last calf, which is plenty long enough with regards to getting her pregnant again. The regional record otherwise stands at 8 years, 11 months between Dokkoon’s second and third calf.

A new area has actually opened now, I believe it’s the area behind the barn to the south. That’s where Putra Mas is most likely to be held. Construction of the facilities needed to hold him are slightly behind schedule, but should be ready to at least hold him when he arrives. Heating and and office can be done later.

 

[Zoofan15]

A new area has actually opened now, I believe it’s the area behind the barn to the south. That’s where Putra Mas is most likely to be held. Construction of the facilities needed to hold him are slightly behind schedule, but should be ready to at least hold him when he arrives. Heating and and office can be done later.

Thanks @Luke899. It was mentioned on socials yesterday that a new area had opened up, but didn’t specify which. Looking a the map, I agree that’s likely, even if the cows are making use of the paddock until Putra Mas’ arrival.

Construction progress has been very slow, but I guess it’s important to bear in mind that Zoos SA don’t benefit from the funding Zoos Victoria receive and in any case, there were delays to their complex too. Considering the short timeline from Monarto deciding to go into elephants and opening their complex, it’s impressive in that regard and long term, will benefit the region.

 

[Tiger91]

Taronga started their program off flying with three calves within the space of 16 months. They then had a further three within the space of 18 months six years later. It's now been over seven years since their last calf so I'd imagine it would be big news.

A female calf would be great for Dubbo's herd which really needs to begin to grow the numbers of their matriarchal herd, especially if Porntip and Thong Dee won't breed again.

True, however she is a bit older then some of the other first time mothers. So im wondering with the increased risks, whether they will keep things more under wraps. It'll be a big draw card for the zoo, but if in the unfortunate events things go rather unfortunately. It would be a lot of negative press as well if they do a big lead up to the event.

They would be mapping her progesterone levels, so they would have a fairly decent idea of when they would expect her to birth, or at least a rough time estimation.

 

[Zoofan15]

True, however she is a bit older then some of the other first time mothers. So im wondering with the increased risks, whether they will keep things more under wraps. It'll be a big draw card for the zoo, but if in the unfortunate events things go rather unfortunately. It would be a lot of negative press as well if they do a big lead up to the event.

They would be mapping her progesterone levels, so they would have a fairly decent idea of when they would expect her to birth, or at least a rough time estimation.

Anjalee is 19 years old, so a comparable age to three of the first time mothers in the region - Porntip (18 years), Pak Boon (18 years) and Dokkoon (17 years). Her age is not an issue.

The biggest risk here is that she’s a first time mother. The mortality rate of calves during birth is statistically higher for first time births; and of the seven cows to give birth in the region, two had what could be considered difficult births (albeit with both calves surviving).

You’re correct progesterone will drop before the birth (usually 2-5 days before the birth). Until then, the estimate is Anjalee will give birth in the first week of December.

I would expect the birth (even if unsuccessful) to be announced by the zoo with 1-3 days. All going well, the main purpose of announcing the birth is to notify visitors when they can come and see the calf and so delayed announcements are as much around waiting until the calf is venturing outside.

 

[Tiger91]

Anjalee is 19 years old, so a comparable age to three of the first time mothers in the region - Porntip (18 years), Pak Boon (18 years) and Dokkoon (17 years). Her age is not an issue.

The biggest risk here is that she’s a first time mother. The mortality rate of calves during birth is statistically higher for first time births; and of the seven cows to give birth in the region, two had what could be considered difficult births (albeit with both calves surviving).

You’re correct progesterone will drop before the birth (usually 2-5 days before the birth). Until then, the estimate is Anjalee will give birth in the first week of December.

I would expect the birth (even if unsuccessful) to be announced by the zoo with 1-3 days. All going well, the main purpose of announcing the birth is to notify visitors when they can come and see the calf and so delayed announcements are as much around waiting until the calf is venturing outside.

Comparing her age to regional first time mothers, then ruling it a non issue then talking about them having a difficult births is oxymoronic.

For a species that hips fuse at ~20yo to where they can no longer be bred from, as first time breeders. Birthing at 17 to 19 yo is on the older side. Especially for a species that usually breeds at 10 to 13. In the wild they would feasibly have had two and either be onto there third or close to having there third calf by the age Anjalee is. There ages would be a huge risk in the potential to having a risky birth. The processes that means we can't feasibly safely breed from females not bred at ~20 are already starting to be in play. It's not something that happens over night. Especially for a 19 yo.

The fact we are the timing we are and they are not updating with her estimates of birth based on her hormone levels. Which will indicate when she actually gives birth, compared to there estimate from when she was bred. Makes me think we will not have the lead up to the birth they have previously done. But will find out afterwards, most likely when the alf is a few days old.

 

[Zoofan15]

Comparing her age to regional first time mothers, then ruling it a non issue then talking about them having a difficult births is oxymoronic.

For a species that hips fuse at ~20yo to where they can no longer be bred from, as first time breeders. Birthing at 17 to 19 yo is on the older side. Especially for a species that usually breeds at 10 to 13. In the wild they would feasibly have had two and either be onto there third or close to having there third calf by the age Anjalee is. There ages would be a huge risk in the potential to having a risky birth. The processes that means we can't feasibly safely breed from females not bred at ~20 are already starting to be in play. It's not something that happens over night. Especially for a 19 yo.

The fact we are the timing we are and they are not updating with her estimates of birth based on her hormone levels. Which will indicate when she actually gives birth, compared to there estimate from when she was bred. Makes me think we will not have the lead up to the birth they have previously done. But will find out afterwards, most likely when the alf is a few days old.

Actually, one of the two problematic births occurred to a 10 year old cow (the youngest recorded mother in the region) who was delivering the largest of the 14 calves on record in terms of birth rate. Of the three cows who delivered their first calves at 17-18 years of age, two had very straightforward births.

I’ve heard 22-24 years being the upper limit for first time partition in this species. Not 20 years and certainly not late teens. I’m not advocating for delayed reproduction, far from it; but these are the cards Dubbo have been dealt. They received Anjalee at 16 years and not only needed to allow time for her to assimilate into the herd; but also work against the challenges of her reproductive issues (including irregular cycles). She ultimately conceived just under two years from when she arrived on site, which I don’t think we can complain about.

In the wild, both male and female elephants breed later. In captivity, a cow can begin cycling as young as four years due to optimal nutrition and other conditions being favourable to her development. In the wild, cows more often give birth to their first calf in their early to mid-teens, which is what Australasia seems to be adhering to where possible e.g. Mali at Melbourne Zoo; and future plans for Kanlaya at Dubbo.

While I agree Dubbo’s announcement will come following the birth, to be fair to the zoo, it’s not possible to be more specific in regards to a due date. They’ve estimated the birth to be in the first week of December; but until the progesterone drops, it can’t be narrowed down more than that. As I mentioned in my previous update, they don’t have a previous reproductive history to go on, so they’re going off an average and acknowledge there’s a window of at least a month either side.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

In extremely positive news for elephants worldwide, the UK's Chester Zoo has developed an EEHV vaccine! It has been in development since 2021, and has been determined to be safe as well effective in creating virus antibody levels.
Chester Zoo on Instagram

 

[Zoofan15]

In extremely positive news for elephants worldwide, the UK's Chester Zoo has developed an EEHV vaccine! It has been in development since 2021, and has been determined to be safe as well effective in creating virus antibody levels.
Chester Zoo on Instagram

The media release can be found here:

We’ve developed the world’s first elephant virus vaccine | Chester Zoo

It’s an encouraging step in the fight to combat this devastating virus that has been afflicted young elephants around the world for decades, including two in Australia.

Australian elephants are yet to receive either this vaccine or one of the trial vaccines, I’m hopeful this will happen in the near future; with Chester’s progress offering some hope of protection.

 

[Pertinax]

The media release can be found here:

We’ve developed the world’s first elephant virus vaccine | Chester Zoo

It’s an encouraging step in the fight to combat this devastating virus that has been afflicted young elephants around the world for decades, including two in Australia.

Australian elephants are yet to receive either this vaccine or one of the trial vaccines, I’m hopeful this will happen in the near future; with Chester’s progress offering some hope of protection.

Its not really the World's first elephant virus vaccine, but hopefully it might be the first one that really works?

 

[ZCChip]

Its not really the World's first elephant virus vaccine, but hopefully it might be the first one that really works?

My understanding is that the USA vaccine is the first one and it works well? I am not sure why it has not made it to other countries yet. So far it seems there are two vaccines developed and the USA one is more advanced than the other? We are all in a new field.