Twycross Zoo Twycross zoo

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CZJimmy,

If you can ... please get a leghold trap on one of the gorilla and elephant keepers (lol). :)

a) I really would like to know what the plans are for both gorilla troupes now several adult members have suddenly died.
b) Can you find out for us if there is to be AI on the older cows Tonzi and Minbu shortly (after the successful op with Noor Jahan.
Last i heard the zoo was waiting tosee how sucessfull the AI was on Noor Jahan,before deciding what to do with the rest of the females.
 
Aren't Boston Terriers very similar to French Bulldogs? They look like more-or-less the same thing to me.

Yes, they're very similar. In fact I've seen that book and I seem to remember noting that the caption was wrong and it was a French Bulldog. Not sure Molly Badham ever had a Boston Terrier (but she might have..;))
 
Last i heard the zoo was waiting tosee how sucessfull the AI was on Noor Jahan,before deciding what to do with the rest of the females.

It was mentioned somewhere on this Forum that regarding the other three females;
After wscanning, one of either Tonzi or Minbu was regarded as no longer reproductive.
The other would be AI'd in due course.
The Twycross-bred female was thought a bit young yet.
So that's one out of three they may AI in the near future.
 
CZJimmy,

If you can ... please get a leghold trap on one of the gorilla and elephant keepers (lol). :)

a) I really would like to know what the plans are for both gorilla troupes now several adult members have suddenly died.
b) Can you find out for us if there is to be AI on the older cows Tonzi and Minbu shortly (after the successful op with Noor Jahan.

CZ Jimmy. I'd be interested too. The question I can never get to the root of is WHY they don't intend to keep a bull elephant though I suspect its because of safety/management reasons? If you talk to any elephant keepers maybe you can confirm this?

Similarly with the Gorillas, any news on a timeframe for a new male for the younger group would be excellent.
Cheers.
 
CZ Jimmy. I'd be interested too. The question I can never get to the root of is WHY they don't intend to keep a bull elephant though I suspect its because of safety/management reasons? If you talk to any elephant keepers maybe you can confirm this?

Similarly with the Gorillas, any news on a timeframe for a new male for the younger group would be excellent.
Cheers.

I only spoke to the elephant keepers briefly and couldn't find any gorilla keepers...

What the elephant keepers told me is that Noorjahan is due to give birth in August 2009 and they will attempt AI with the suitable elephants after that birth. As for the bull issue, the keepers were making a big deal about free contact with the females and I don't think they want to give that up with the addition of a male.

I'll have pictures (and possibly videos) later...
 
Can't they just keep the females in free and the bull in protected contact? That's what most places with bulls do isn't it? I agree, it's a VERY weak reason!
 
It wasn't so long ago that an keeper died from being attacked by the previous elephant cow at Twycross. As frustrating as it may be, you can understand the keepers not wishing to go back to working with an animal they don't feel safe around, despite protected contact actually being safer.
 
It wasn't so long ago that an keeper died from being attacked by the previous elephant cow at Twycross. As frustrating as it may be, you can understand the keepers not wishing to go back to working with an animal they don't feel safe around, despite protected contact actually being safer.

Exactly our point why elephant keepers should not be in free contact with their elephant cows at all.

The very nature of an elephant-keeper relationship is one of deep personal contact and understanding, yet elephants remain "wild animals", have strong individual (yes individual) personalities and are certainly not the lovable creatures - to oneanother nor their human companions the keepers - a good portion of the zoo visitors mistake them for. Is that not a big element in why elephant keeping in general elicits such strong responses in people in general? ;)

Besides their considerable size makes for a challenging environment for keepers in free contact to work with them, especially to be around them in very enclosed spaces. Elephants "know" their keepers and as the dominance-submissive dynamic is a relevant aspect of elephant group tactics and structure, if and when a keeper has an off-day or weak moment the elephants will know to take advantage immediately. The latter usually has rather major and dire consequences for elephant keepers and regularly ends in keeper mortal injuries. You just have to look at the statistics in Europe (of maintaining elephants in direct contact) over the last 10-15 years or so and it would not make for uplifting reading I can tell you!

All these aspects point to the inherent risks in maintaining captive elephants in direct contact with zoo keepers.

Post script: I would also like to add that if we would be talking giraffes or rhinos no zoo fan or zoo visitor would even be discussing this topic. F.i. "in with the giraffes" is just not on! :eek:
 
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It wasn't so long ago that an keeper died from being attacked by the previous elephant cow at Twycross. As frustrating as it may be, you can understand the keepers not wishing to go back to working with an animal they don't feel safe around, despite protected contact actually being safer.

I presume you mean the previous elephant(Iris?) which killed a keeper- that was a pretty long time ago now. The current elephants and the housing are quite different though I agree when a serious accident happens the memory of it will determine the management's view about things for a long time to come. I have often wondered whether it was actually that keeper's death which is at the root of their reluctance to keep a bull?

The free contact argument holds no water to me. Normal practise as pointed out above, is to have a separate facility for the bull so a zoo can still have free contact with the cows if that is feasible (as at Whipsnade). And Twycross has already had to send one of their young cows away to Whipsnade because it was becoming unmanageable-so much for free contact;) As Jelle said, with any other species this wouldn't be an issue at all. Personally I wouldn't trust any elephant(even females)further than I could throw it- free contact with females just increases the chances of further accidents- I like elephants but have no illusions that they are very untrustworthy creatures.
 
I'd just like to point out (before there are some accusations) that the keeper never told me the exact reason for not having a bull, but she was referring to the use and preference of free contact a lot, so I made an assumption...

Someone more credible would have to ask the zoo, I doubt the keeper took a 16 year old seriously...
 
I'd just like to point out (before there are some accusations) that the keeper never told me the exact reason for not having a bull, but she was referring to the use and preference of free contact a lot, so I made an assumption...

Someone more credible would have to ask the zoo, I doubt the keeper took a 16 year old seriously...

don't put yourself down..;) Every one that asks questions and gets an answer adds a little more to the bigger picture...

I think no two people at the zoo would give the same answer anyway- depending on their own involvement, opinion or position on the matter. This issue certainly promotes plenty of discussion though...
 
I'd just like to point out (before there are some accusations) that the keeper never told me the exact reason for not having a bull, but she was referring to the use and preference of free contact a lot, so I made an assumption...

Someone more credible would have to ask the zoo, I doubt the keeper took a 16 year old seriously...
Was the female keeper you spoke to German????
 
But you both get what I am saying, right? As much as we realise that free contact in a zoo environment will always be unsafe, from the point of view of Twycross management and staff I imagine they just don't want to house an elephant they consider to be dangerous again. I know the irony of that statement. But Iris wasn't 'trained' in the way the current animals have been, I see the road they have gone down with the group they have now.
It is a dangerous mistake to imagine that you are safer with a group of well-trained elephants than in protected contact. But I understand if that is informing their management choices. But also, protected contact is not as safe as it sounds, especially with a bull.

I'm not sure I get the point about giraffe or rhino? Many zoos allow keepers to enter both giraffe and rhino enclosures with animals they trust. If you mean nobody would excuse a zoo for not housing a bull animal on the grounds that it can't be trained, sure, but then I have a list as long as my arm of 'why won't they just'-type frustrations with many collections and as we have no influence over zoo policy the best we can do is try and understand what might be informing such a decision.

Personally, I think Twycross is a massive net consumer of extremely rare wildlife and constantly seems able to acquire species other collections would give their eye tooth for, only to house them in very average enclosures until they gradually die out without much or any breeding success. For this reason, I think they should build on their 100% success rate with Asian elephants (I know it's only been two so far ;) ) and the few other species they have done well with, and stop keeping animals they don't have success with. That was the attitude at places like howletts, if an animal didn't thrive or breed, they wouldn't just leave them to grow old, they'd find a new home for them and try something else.
 
I think so, she spoke with an accent anyway...
Right in that case i know who you were speaking to she a very experienced Elephant keeper,i know that she likes the hands on aspect of free contact they have with the Elephants at Twycross,but i`ve also spoke to the keepers at Blair Drummond and they say the best way of dealing with Elephants is through protected contact,in many ways its up to the individual zoo`s to decide which is best for them,but if they got a bull i suspect they would have to change systems to use the protected contact methods now been used in many zoo`s.
 
well, actually, John aspinall didn't ALWAYS do that either.....

No he didn't...

In recent years I've noticed a bit of laxness creeping in. A pair of Red River Hogs at Port Lympne have never bred, but still kept together with no attempt to exchange one or other to stimulate breeding. (Could be done easily now as a newer younger pair at Howletts are breeding)

Female gorillas living longterm in groups where they didn't breed, instead of being moved into a different group to promote breeding. Two of them (Tamarilla & Kabinda) were sent to Beauval in France, presumably because they had less value than the breeders- Kabinda has since bred and I think the other one is pregnant too- indicating all they needed was a change of mates...
 
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