ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2014

Don't know about that - there's a pretty sizeable grazing paddock for the pygmy hippos at Edinburgh.

Agreed, though it's 5 years since i was at Edinburgh(have to return soon!) but from memory, i would say their paddocks are on a par with Whipsnade, nothing compares to Marwell that i've seen (all apart from S Lakes) . Colchester, much as i love the place, have no grazing at all !
 
Wonderful news about the Sumatran Tigers. London has never done well with the species, so I hope this is the dawn of a new era.

As far as the Pigmy Hippos are concerned, whatever the substrate in the Giraffe paddock is , I am very sure that it would be unwise to mix them.
 
With the good news concerning the tigers, can anyone provide an update on how the gorillas are doing on the baby-making front?
 
Kumbuka & Mjukuu have certainly been active together.

Yes, but is he actually mating properly yet? Previously he was just going through the motions and hadn't got it right.

Its worth noting 'Mjuku' became pregnant within about three months of the ill-fated 'Yeboah's arrival, whereas 'Kumbuka' has been there nearly a year already.

If they returned her (temporarily) to Chessington I'm sure she would become pregnant almost immediately- if that is what they want. But with young male Gorillas becoming a real problem in zoos now (Chessington have recently castrated their two young males, one of several European zoos to do this), is it actually better if the ZSL group just stayed as they are without any young rather than risk another male baby?

No doubt they would like at least one baby for people to see though, and Kumbuka is genetically valuable too- at least on his dad's side.
 
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The work on the former tapir enclosure looks to be necessary adjustments rather than any attempt to create a long-lived exhibit, which I think would be a huge mistake. IMHO there isn't really enough room on this little corner of land for a compatible, non-breeding pair of pygmy hippo, let alone if ZSL decided to keep the species in a breeding setup (separated for much of the year) using this enclosure. As someone else pointed out, the steps into water work ok for tapir, but not for hippo. I believe when Marwell built the semi-aquatic mammal house in the 80s they discovered that the hippos couldn't get into the ponds using the steps, so they had to install ramps.

So hopefully just a stopover, we'll see. If the zoo wants to avoid bad publicity a few years from now, they'd better look again at the giraffe facility next door. Really, the (upper) Cottons should be bulldozed. People may have nostalgia for the houses, but the houses themselves aren't so much the problem, as the chronic lack of available land around them for paddock space. As the Decimus Burton building is listed, there's only one way for the zoo to create an acceptable giraffe enclosure, and thats by expanding over the footprint of the entire upper Cotton's. I am convinced that the giraffe will be gone in under a decade unless this is done. For those who think the megafauna form an essential part of the learning experience for young minds, look at the state of the current enclosure and ask yourselves for how long will people think that's ok?

I agree that grazing is important to both hippo species and, just because an animal lives in tropical forest regions, doesn't mean it's at its most fulfilled being kept on bark chippings on something the size of a small petrol forecourt. London were so keen to create a grassy, forest 'bai' opening for their gorillas, why not for the hippos? Couldn't possibly be because the hippos won't ruin overhead vegetation but will graze heavily, whereas gorillas will do the opposite?

Someone did make a good point about the hippos having grazing access to adjacent enclosures, though. The 2007 masterplan sited the hippo exhibit where the current entrance is; situated here, there is the potential for corridors and channels into the gorilla moat, and perhaps even night grazing on the actual island for some of the year. A much better and economic use of space than reusing a massive ungulate building, designed to rotate multiple species onto minute strips of yard, for just two pygmy hippos. But short-term there certainly exists worse than what they're creating. I would be impressed if they spent a modest amount creating a fenced corridor down to a paddock in the woodland walk, in the way that Whipsnade has done with their pygmy hippo enclosures, but I suspect this won't happen, for various mundane reasons.
 
I will not make him a write off but Kumbuka being here one year on and not having females become pregnant does not bode well for the future. But then, there have been conflicting minds / reporting on how they are maintained as a family …

The pygmy hippo essay makes for good reading. I do suspect the pygmy hippos at this particular site is not long term and that at some stage the spot near the current entrance will become the favored locale (as was planned in the Masterplan). I would think giving them some use of the gorilla island and pond / moat would be very interesting and a multiple revolving species area would not be too bad. Why not even the colobus or mangabey in there with the gorillas?
 
The colobus were already tried with the gorillas, so probably unlikely they'll try to mix any more monkeys with them, i would guess.
 
It is a pity that the colobus/gorilla mixed exhibit idea never worked out,as was the original plan for Gorilla Kingdom I believe. Maybe for the best though, considering Kumbuka's temperament!

Has the mixing of a Great Ape with another species ever worked successfully in a zoo environment?
 
For those who think the megafauna form an essential part of the learning experience for young minds, look at the state of the current enclosure and ask yourselves for how long will people think that's ok?

Respectfully, I would suggest that substance is to be valued, not form. The Cotton Terraces have worked extremely well. Very few of the ungulates kept there haven't thrived. ZSL marketing and education are paid, amongst other reasons, to get that message across.

Moreover, it is pertinent to ask just what Whipsnade is supposed to be for. It would surely be wiser to keep social grassland species there, with solitary forest ungulates at London. And as I have suggested before, African megafauna exhibits (giraffe, zebra, black rhino, compatible antelope species and ostrich) at London would surely be the best basis for a renewed bid for the ten acres.
 
But with young male Gorillas becoming a real problem in zoos now (Chessington have recently castrated their two young males, one of several European zoos to do this), is it actually better if the ZSL group just stayed as they are without any young rather than risk another male baby?

No doubt they would like at least one baby for people to see though, and Kumbuka is genetically valuable too- at least on his dad's side.

Pertinax has forgotten more about gorillas than I'll ever learn, so I'm inclined to accept his suggestion that, again, London have a male who can't, as it were.

I do really wonder if the best ZSL gorilla strategy wouldn't be to set up a bachelor group, quite possibly at Whipsnade. Bonobos and Sumatran Orang-utans are the species really short of breeding space in the UK, and it would be good if ZSL did something to address that.
 
I do really wonder if the best ZSL gorilla strategy wouldn't be to set up a bachelor group, quite possibly at Whipsnade. Bonobos and Sumatran Orang-utans are the species really short of breeding space in the UK, and it would be good if ZSL did something to address that.

Which, of course, leads to the unavoidable issue that ZSL rather screwed the pooch in keeping the gorillas and getting rid of their Orang-utans......
 
Has the mixing of a Great Ape with another species ever worked successfully in a zoo environment?

Up to a point. Jersey and Chester have kept lar gibbons with Sumatran orangs quite successfully. Edinburgh kept their gorillas with Diana monkeys years ago and at Howletts Kijo's group was kept with samango guenons for a while. As far as I am aware, the great apes bred in these groupings - but the other primates did not.
Apenheul have kept patas monkeys with their gorillas and I expect other combinations have been tried in Europe and the USA, but I don't know any further details. Of course I don't think anyone would be silly enough to try this with a group of chimps :rolleyes:

Alan
 
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All I can say over the past 5 or 6 weeks on the past 3 visits ...
Kumbuka & Mjukuu have been very intimate on 2 of the occasions - from Mjukuu reaction he probably didn't get it quite right on the first - but seemed to satify her on the second.
 
Gorilla silverbacks at Port Lympne killed male diana and colobus monkeys during the 1990s after attempted mixings. I'm not sure where the experiment was tried, as I saw colobus once in the cage built directly above the original chimpanzee house, plus there is a cage adjacent to 'palace of the apes', connected to it by an overhead tunnel. I've seen lemurs here before, with the tunnel shut obviously.

Howletts had (lesser?) spot-nosed monkeys in one side of the newer gorilla complex, and samango in the other. Like someone else has said, I don't think either bred. The samango pair went to Port Lmypne, where they were seemingly joined by more individuals (totalling 5 at one point), but I'm not sure they ever bred at Port Lypmne. There remained an old pair of spot-nosed monkeys in an off-exhibit cage within the gorilla complex at Howletts until only a few years ago. I'm assuming they've both died since.

Bristol too had initial success with their De Brazza monkeys, which were supposedly mixed with the gorillas, before seemingly losing one of the adults and then sending the remainin animals away. I'm not sure what the introductions were like at Bristol, I'm not aware of them being regularly mixed on the gorilla island at any stage. Regardless, the new occupants of the former enclosure are South American and so it looks as if attempts to mix primates has been abandoned.

I've seen photographs of the London colobus group using the island, but had never seen them mixed with the gorillas. There was a brief colobus escape in around 2011, and I believe it was this, rather than failed mixing attempts, that ended London's attempts to give the monkeys access to the gorilla enclosure.

It seems strange that some institutions are sucessful with mixing gorillas and other primates, however a more important statistic might be how many monkey groups living with gorillas are actually breeding? Guenons in particular are not likely to breed well, especially in a stressful environment. However, the ethics of mixing either surplus bachelors, common or free-breeding monkey species with gorillas because any losses won't be as significant, is obviously questionable.

I think its a shame that the tunnel at London wasn't maintained to at least give monkeys some occasional access to the island, even at different times to the gorillas, which would at least provide some enrichment. I believe there are spider monkeys now in that cage that used to be connected to the island?
 
so I'm inclined to accept his suggestion that, again, London have a male who can't, as it were.

Its more than a suggestion, I know for fact he wasn't getting it right in the early months, though things(hopefully) may have changed by now.

I certainly haven't given up on him(yet) as the current situation is similar to Biopark Valencia who a few years back had another handraised male from Paington- Mambie(born at Twyross). He also seemed interested in mating the female(s) from early on but with no result for several years and he appeared 'no good'- until he finally fathered a baby.:).
 
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Which, of course, leads to the unavoidable issue that ZSL rather screwed the pooch in keeping the gorillas and getting rid of their Orang-utans......

Breeding issues aside, the Gorillas, with or without young, make a more impressive and convenient display for them. I'm pretty sure that was the main thinking behind the decision to ditch the Orangutans.
 
I will not make him a write off but Kumbuka being here one year on and not having females become pregnant does not bode well for the future. But then, there have been conflicting minds / reporting on how they are maintained as a family …

I haven't written him off yet either, but each month that goes by with no pregnancy (that I'm aware of) increases my concern.

I think they are actually a well balanced and compatible group now( though obviously with no babies yet) and he is a beautiful-looking male. If no young were forthcoming I would hope they will keep them as they are and not make yet another male change. I would send the female(s) one by one down to Chessington and get them mated that way- if they still want young that is. Damisi (Chessington's male) is from a very heavily represented line(Frankfurt), whereas Kumbuka isn't, but Damisi would get them pregnant pronto.
 
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Breeding issues aside, the Gorillas, with or without young, make a more impressive and convenient display for them. I'm pretty sure that was the main thinking behind the decision to ditch the Orangutans.

That's the trouble with London these days, IMO: everything's about appearance. Personally, I'm not sure that in south-east England, with the Aspinall parks and Chessington nearby, that well-done orangs (ie a lot better done than Colchester's! :rolleyes:), wouldn't be much more of a pull than London's gorillas, who have been so long without youngsters.

In the closure crisis in 1991, the decision was taken to disperse the orangs because it was felt that they could have been split up, whereas the chimps would have been much harder to re-home. At that time with Kumba II, Zaire, Salome and their young it might have appeared that for the first time in its history London was going to have a successful gorilla group.

Still, everything's easier in hindsight.:(
 
At that time with Kumba II, Zaire, Salome and their young it might have appeared that for the first time in its history London was going to have a successful gorilla group.

They could have done. They blew it by allowing the two young females to go to Belfast. They should have kept them and swapped the male again, giving them an unrelated male and family of four females. Bingo.:) Probably directed by the studbook keeper but they could have resisted it. Problem was the Sobell enclosure was not big enough to house that many anyway.
 
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